Who goes back with Jesus in the pre-tribulation rapture?

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TribulationSigns

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Some times an hour is literal. Sometimes an hour means only a brief time or an appointed season.

Ah, I see how this works now. :stageright:

When “one hour” supports your doctrine, it’s literal; when taking it literally creates a problem for your interpretation, suddenly it becomes “a brief time” or “an appointed season.” That sounds less like letting Scripture interpret Scripture and more like cherry-picking which words are literal or symbolic, regardless of context, depending on what your doctrine needs. :Laughingoutloud:
 

David in NJ

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Animal sacrifices <<""God no longer requires them""
Yes, not everything in the Bible applies to everyone
..
"""The rapture is designed to find and bring upwards all the surviving saved Christians all around the world.......clouds..."""
Who are saved & sealed by the Gal 1:11-12 Gospel taught uniquely to Paul by Christ which Paul himself had to Gal 2:2 teach the 12.
..
""""before he continues his descent to the Earth during the Millennium"""
Paul verses please that teach the cloud saints will also be there instead of Heavenly places
I can't find any.
..
""and for all eternity""
Yes, Rev 21 appears to teach everybody who was ever saved will be there.
Are there spirit beings on earth that we cannot see with our physical eyes?
 

David in NJ

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Ah, I see how this works now. :stageright:

When “one hour” supports your doctrine, it’s literal; when taking it literally creates a problem for your interpretation, suddenly it becomes “a brief time” or “an appointed season.” That sounds less like letting Scripture interpret Scripture and more like cherry-picking which words are literal or symbolic, regardless of context, depending on what your doctrine needs. :Laughingoutloud:
God Says, 1,000 Literal Years = Bank on it!!!
 
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CrowCross

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Oh, absolutely! And I'm the king of England. LOL. The amount of effort you've spent defending that literal 1,000-year reign says otherwise.
The bible defends the literal 1,000 year reign.
All you need to do is read the verse and it mentions it like 6 times. That's six opportunities to explain that it's symbolic.
Sure—says those who read the text only at the surface level and then confuse literalism with sound biblical interpretation. Apparently, spiritual discernment is optional. :laughing:
Why should I interpret it as symbolic? You still haven't shown us your great and mighty spiritual discernment and told us why we should ONLY see it as a symbolic time frame.
Because I allow Scripture to interpret Scripture rather than imposing a strictly literalistic framework upon the text. The symbolic interpretation is not something I am arbitrarily “changing” it into; it is derived from the biblical context, imagery, and the way Scripture itself uses and interprets such symbols. It is something you clearly lacks!
The problem with your symbolism is you can make it mean whatever you want it to me.
But it's a good thing you have this gift of spiritual discernment so your imagination can correct what the many theologians have taught over the ages.
I have explained it—multiple times—in my other posts while responding to and refuting your position. Do you not remember already? LOL. At this point, it seems less like a lack of explanation and more like you simply don't want to accept the biblical evidence because it contradicts your position. :laughing:
So, I should read everyone of the 320 post in this thread alone not counting the other threads to understand why it's symbolic?
Sheeze, I would think a teacher of scripture as great as you could sum it up in a paragraph.
 
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WPM

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I interpret the bible as literal unless you can't.
For example the stars can't fall to earth. This means the stars in this instance are not literal stars.

Some times an hour is literal. Sometimes an hour means only a brief time or an appointed season.
Gotcha! Zero consistency with Dispensatanism. It is all over the house: "a thousand years" must be literal but "one hour" is figurative. Yea right! Pretrib makes it up as it goes. Whatever works.
 

CrowCross

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Isaiah 14 12-17 states, How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (helel or shining one), son of the morning (dawn)! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?”

Ezekiel 28:12-19: Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.”

Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And
his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Ezekiel 28:13.....You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.

Satan was in the garden of Eden in an un-fallen state. Eden was after creation. This means Satan didn't fall prior to the creation of earth.

Secondly God said His creation was VERY good. If Satan...a created being... had fallen prior to creation then His creation wasn't VERY good.
 

WPM

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The bible defends the literal 1,000 year reign.
All you need to do is read the verse and it mentions it like 6 times. That's six opportunities to explain that it's symbolic.

Why should I interpret it as symbolic? You still haven't shown us your great and mighty spiritual discernment and told us why we should ONLY see it as a symbolic time frame.

The problem with your symbolism is you can make it mean whatever you want it to me.
But it's a good thing you have this gift of spiritual discernment so your imagination can correct what the many theologians have taught over the ages.

So, I should read everyone of the 320 post in this thread alone not counting the other threads to understand why it's symbolic?
Sheeze, I would think a teacher of scripture as great as you could sum it up in a paragraph.
Revelation tells us 5 times that Satan and the beast have "seven heads." That make them seven literal heads? LOL.
 

WPM

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Ezekiel 28:13.....You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.

Satan was in the garden of Eden in an un-fallen state. Eden was after creation. This means Satan didn't fall prior to the creation of earth.

Secondly God said His creation was VERY good. If Satan...a created being... had fallen prior to creation then His creation wasn't VERY good.
What? I have heard it all now! He was there deceiving Adam and Eve before the Fall. Hello! He had obviously already fallen.

That is nowhere talking about the invisible angelic world. It is talking about the physical visible creation.
 

CrowCross

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Revelation tells us 5 times that Satan and the beast have "seven heads." That make them seven literal heads? LOL.
How many "heads" does NATO have?

I suppose the beast system and the mark is symbolic.
 

CrowCross

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What? I have heard it all now! He was there deceiving Adam and Eve before the Fall. Hello! He had obviously already fallen.

That is nowhere talking about the invisible angelic world. It is talking about the physical visible creation.
Satan fell between day 6 and the fall of Adam.

Now, once again I ask....where does the bible say Satan fell prior to creation?
 
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TribulationSigns

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The bible defends the literal 1,000 year reign.
All you need to do is read the verse and it mentions it like 6 times. That's six opportunities to explain that it's symbolic.

Simply repeating a number six times does not establish that the number must be understood as a literal 1,000 solar years. Revelation is filled with symbolic numbers, imagery, and visions. The question is not how many times “1,000 years” appears, but how Revelation uses the number within its literary and biblical context.

You are essentially arguing, “It appears six times, therefore it must be literal.” That is not an argument; it is an assumption about how the number must be interpreted.

If repetition automatically made something literal, then we would have quite a problem interpreting many of the repeated symbols throughout Revelation.

Why should I interpret it as symbolic? You still haven't shown us your great and mighty spiritual discernment and told us why we should ONLY see it as a symbolic time frame.

Because Revelation itself gives us good reason to recognize symbolic imagery, and because Scripture frequently uses numbers symbolically. My position isn't that I simply decided, “I want 1,000 to be symbolic.” Rather, I interpret the 1,000 years within the broader symbolic framework of Revelation and in light of how Scripture itself uses the concepts of completeness, fullness, and long periods of time.

More importantly, I am not arguing that the phrase means anything I want it to mean. There are interpretive controls: context, immediate literary context, the rest of Revelation, the Old Testament imagery being used, and Scripture interpreting Scripture.

The burden is therefore not simply on me to prove that it is symbolic. You also need to demonstrate WHY this particular number must be interpreted as a literal chronological period, especially within a book so saturated with symbolic imagery.

The problem with your symbolism is you can make it mean whatever you want it to me.
But it's a good thing you have this gift of spiritual discernment so your imagination can correct what the many theologians have taught over the ages.

Only if symbolism is being used arbitrarily—which is not what I'm advocating.

There is a major difference between biblical symbolism and making something mean whatever you want. The fact that an interpretation is symbolic does not mean it is unlimited or subjective.

And your appeal to “the many theologians over the ages” doesn't settle the question either. Theological tradition is not Scripture. If a doctrine is biblical, we should be able to demonstrate it from the biblical text—not merely appeal to how many theologians have historically agreed with us.

Besides, theologians have disagreed about Revelation for centuries. So appealing to “many theologians” doesn't establish your interpretation any more than appealing to “many theologians” would establish mine.

So, I should read everyone of the 320 post in this thread alone not counting the other threads to understand why it's symbolic?
Sheeze, I would think a teacher of scripture as great as you could sum it up in a paragraph.

No. You don't need to read 320 posts. I was responding to your repeated claim that I have never explained my position when I have done so numerous times.

But since you specifically asked for a summary, here it is:

I understand the 1,000 years symbolically because Revelation is apocalyptic literature presented through visions and symbols, the number 1,000 is used elsewhere in Scripture in ways that communicate FULLNESS of whatever is in view rather than necessarily functioning as a literal stopwatch, and the immediate context of Revelation 20 must be interpreted consistently with the symbolic character of the surrounding vision. I therefore do not assume that “1,000 years” means exactly 1,000 literal calendar years simply because the words appear in the text.

And here's the larger issue: you're treating “literal” as though it is automatically the default and “symbolic” requires special permission. That's not how biblical interpretation works. We determine the meaning from the genre, context, imagery, and the way Scripture uses language.

So I'm not asking you to accept my interpretation because I claim to have some “great and mighty spiritual discernment.” I'm asking you to examine the interpretive method and the biblical evidence rather than assuming that your preferred reading is automatically the literal one. Selah!
 

TribulationSigns

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If you can't explain it again or point me to one of your numerous post....go away.

I've already explained my position to you and many people multiple times in previous discussions, including the biblical reasoning behind it. I'm not going to keep repeating the same argument every time you ask, especially when we've already debated this subject at length.

If you genuinely want to revisit my position, you're welcome to look through our previous discussions using the search feature. I'm here to engage in meaningful biblical discussion, not to repeatedly restate the same arguments for someone who has already debated them with me and still has stubborn ears.

And telling me to “go away” because I don't want to repeat an argument I've already made doesn't exactly strengthen your position.