The Two Anointed Ones = The Two Witnesses

[3 Resurrections]

Your Preterist Claims Above Are "False", 70AD and the Jerusalem Temple destruction played no part in fulfillment of Zechariah 4:11-14, these events are "Future" unfulfilled,

Please read what I wrote more carefully. I never wrote that Zechariah 4:11-14 was to be fulfilled in AD 70, NEITHER will it be fulfilled in our future. Zechariah 4:11-14 was a prediction regarding the post-exilic return, when Zerubbabel's hands would not only lay the foundation stone of that post-exilic temple, but his hands would finish it as well - which he did accomplish back then. The high priest Joshua with his lineage going back to Zadok (as God required for any high priest in the post-exilic temple in Ezekiel 44:15-16) was one of those two "olive trees" anointed and cleansed to serve in that post-exilic temple. Remember, there was always a backup second high priest called a "sagan" who was also anointed to serve as high priest, just in case the main high priest became ritually unclean or was incapacitated in any way so that he couldn't perform his duties on the feast day.

The language regarding Joshua the high priest in Zechariah 3:1 has him "standing before the angel of the Lord" to be cleansed and dressed for his high priest role, just as Ezekiel 44:15-16 describes the high priests with their Zadok lineage when they would enter into the most holy place, "to come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood...They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table to minister unto me...". This is a duplicate of the language of "the two olive trees" on either side of the menorah candlestick in Zechariah 4:14 - "the two anointed ones that stand by the Lord of the whole earth". This is a description of the high priest role. It is the same thing with "the two olive trees" in Revelation 11:4, with its context describing the Jerusalem temple in Rev. 11:1-2. Those "two olive trees were again described as "standing before the God of the earth." TWO HIGH PRIESTS are being spoken of here.

God had once decreed that only the Zadok high priests could "stand before me" to serve in that post-exilic temple, but He got rid of that system when Christ became our "Great High Priest" after the superior deathless order of Melchizedek in AD 33. But the people of Israel rejected Christ Jesus and insisted on still using their own obsolete high priesthood. This is why God had to very publicly eradicate the high priesthood in AD 67-68 with the death of the two witnesses (the former high priests Ananas and Joshua), because this high priest institution had become a competing idol for those still insisting on doing things the old way.

God prepared a very, very specific hour, day, month, and year (Rev. 9:15) for this public elimination of His formerly-approved Zadok high priesthood. The Zadok high priesthood had served God's purpose since the post-exilic return described in Zechariah 4 and Ezekiel 44, but that system had become a "weak and beggarly element" in comparison to Christ as the Great High Priest. As Hebrews 8:13 says, "In that he saith A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." And this did happen soon to the entire desolated, defunct temple system in Jerusalem between the AD 66-70 years. It "vanished away" - never to be restored after that.

 

[Truth7t7]

If I must use the word "literally", I will here. God's literal thoughts and literal ways of accomplishing things are not how WE literally think and how WE literally accomplish things. Isa. 55:8-9.

"Straw Man" you can do better than that in trying to remove God's literal words through symbolic allegory

God Jesus Christ literally came to earth and took upon himself literal human flesh, this took place upon this literal earth, as he died on a literal cross of Calvary in Jerusalem for the sins of this literal world

Revelation Chapter 11 There will be two literal future prophets that will testify for God before a world watching for 1260 literal days, they will bring literal plagues upon this literal world representing God, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

These Two Prophets will finish their testimony and be killed, they will lay dead for 3 5 literal days in a Jerusalem street, a literal world will watch their deaths in celebration exchanging literal gifts because the two prophets literally tormented the world through literal plagues upon this earth, they will be raised from the dead and literally ascend to heaven before a future literal world watching as the final hours of Earth's existence unfolds in (The Day Of The Lord) The End

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Truth7t7]

Once again, you lied. Where does the Scripture said it is a literal Words of Fire by Elijah's mouth?! And where do you read that Elijah asked for fire from Heaven to consume literal Samarians?! Do you read that in 1st Kings 8?! Shame on you!

Kings 1:10KJV
10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

1 Samuel 15:23KJV
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

 

[Truth7t7]

This is why God had to very publicly eradicate the high priesthood in AD 67-68 with the death of the two witnesses (the former high priests Ananas and Joshua), because this high priest institution had become a competing idol for those still insisting on doing things the old way.

God prepared a very, very specific hour, day, month, and year (Rev. 9:15) for this public elimination of His formerly-approved Zadok high priesthood. The Zadok high priesthood had served God's purpose since the post-exilic return described in Zechariah 4 and Ezekiel 44, but that system had become a "weak and beggarly element" in comparison to Christ as the Great High Priest. As Hebrews 8:13 says, "In that he saith A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." And this did happen soon to the entire desolated, defunct temple system in Jerusalem between the AD 66-70 years. It "vanished away" - never to be restored after that.

Once Again your "Preterist" claims that any part of Zechariah chapter 4 or Rev 9:15 was fulfilled in Jerusalems temple and its destruction in 66-70AD is "False" the (Two Anointed Ones) Zechariah 4:14 or (The Two Witnesses) of Revelation Chapter 11 weren't Ananas or Joshua as you claim

(Future Events Unfulfilled)

The (Two Anointed Ones) of Zechariah 4:14 and the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation Chapter 11 are "Future" prophets that will give their testimony in a "Future" Jerusalem for 1260 Days, they will bring "Future" literal plagues upon this literal world, they will be killed and lay in a literal "Future" Jerusalem street as a literal world watches in celebration of their deaths by exchanging literal gifts with one another because the prophets tormented the wicked world, as the final hours of this earth's existence unfolds in (The Day Of The Lord) 7th Trump/Angel sounding Rev 11:15 and the final judgement Rev 11:18 (The End)

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus and John cannot be the two prophets in Rev 11 for many reasons but one is the two prophets die at the same time, lay in the street for the same 3.5 days and both resurrct and rise into heaven at the same time. That is not the case for Jesus and John who died years apart etc.

If I must use the word "literally", I will here. God's literal thoughts and literal ways of accomplishing things are not how WE literally think and how WE literally accomplish things. Isa. 55:8-9.

God, who is a Spirit only (as once was Jesus), had no other option to speak to us corporately, except through the "voice boxes" of His chosen prophets.
Surely you don't believe that the OC. Prophets had conscious thoughts of their own about what they were saying?

Even though God spoke through them about the "Promise to come", none of the Patriarchs or the Prophets had any personal knowledge about the THREE manifestations of Christ, and when each event would take place, yet God faithfully spoke of all three manifestations of Jesus comings at randomn, throughout the OT. scriptures.
1. Past- by his mortal flesh.
2. Present- by his Holy Spirit.
3. Future- by his Immortal Glory, in flaming fire.
For example, all THREE of Jesus' manifestations (flesh, Spirit, Immortality) to usward, can be seen randomly in the book of Zechariah.
If you are an astute reader of the NT-KJV Bible only, you will not miss the choice, key words that the Holy Spirit uses through Jesus and the Apostles words, to help us SEE Jesus in the OT. scriptures.
In John 5:39 Jesus said:
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
So then, in Zechariah, as my suggested example, read through Zechariah-KJV, and allow "the Mind of Christ" within you to reveal Himself to you in each of his three manifestations. They might only be shown to you in a phrase, through an allegorical teaching, or just in a single word, with nothing being in chronological order. (Isa. 55:8-9).


Here are some clues of what we are looking at symbolically:
3. Power equals authority;
they shall prophesy 1260 days, or 3.5 years. John the Baptist prophesied for 6 mos. and Jesus prophesied for 3 years.
4. A direct reference to Zech. ch. 4
5. Equal retribution against all that hurt (or kill them). Literal fire does not come out of any mortal person, but fiery words of condemnation towards another does. James 3:5.

6. Again, to have power is to have authority to use that power, or not!
a. In the days of John the Baptist and Jesus, both were physically born having the symbolic "rain" from heaven, which is the Holy Spirit. That "rain" did not fall again on anyone else permanently, until after Pentecost.
b. In the days PRIOR to their prophecy/testimony, the Holy Spirit was NOT YET permanently GIVEN to anyone. No not even Elijah, Abraham, Moses etc.
John 7:39.
7. At the time of John and Jesus, the ruling authority of satan in this world to kill them, was king Herod and the Roman Emp.
8a. The Great city is Jerusalem (which now is) being spiritually symbolized as Egypt (slavery/captivity); Sodom (sin).
We all are held in captivity by sin.
b. "Where also our Lord was crucified" is just an identifier that Jerusalem was indeed ripe for judgment by God. In 70AD. the KoG would be taken away from them and given to another. (Notice that: not only would the city be taken away, but the KoG ALSO).

9. Both John and Jesus were slated/destined to be cut short and murdered for God's purposes of OUR salvation. One might say that they were born with "the smell of death" upon them.
For 3.5 years during their joint ministry, they literally were "dead men walking".
John for 6 mos. and Jesus for 3 years, which equals to 1260 days.
Many of the people in Israel, as well as the many foreigners that visited from other countries and nations, did see the destined dead bodies of John and Jesus during those 3.5 years of their Joint ministry.
Because both John and Jesus were born having the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit, neither one could ever be kept to STAY in a grave for any amount of time. As Jesus said: "All who live and believe in me shall never die".
Therefore, symbolically no one could ever "suffer"/try to cause their dead bodies to stay in a grave....spiritually, they never died.

10. Being brought to repentance by God is not a joyous time, and most often it takes place under extreme duress of pain, suffering and torment.
But once that point is reached, the candidate finds immediate release and wonderful joy of God's permanent presence through their confession of faith in Christ.
All Christians today, world wide celebrate Christmas, being that of rejoicing over the wonderful works of John and Jesus. Therefore, though they may have suffered torment in their repentance, out of a joyous heart, all Born again Christians truly enjoy that "season of gift giving", of which commemorates the Gift of Eternal life that God gives to us.
11. "And after 3.5 days the spirit of life from God entered into them": is symbolic for 3.5 YEARS, which is the total length of their Joint ministry, and when John and Jesus were bodily resurrected, as shown in Mat. 27:50-54.
12. On the day of Jesus' Ascension, HE WAS NOT ALONE!! As he was not alone in the day of Him being The First Resurrection. Mat. 27:50-54.

 

[3 Resurrections]

(Future Events Unfulfilled)

The (Two Anointed Ones) of Zechariah 4:14 and the (Two Witnesses) of Revelation Chapter 11 are "Future" prophets that will give their testimony in a "Future" Jerusalem for 1260 Days, they will bring "Future" literal plagues upon this literal world, they will be killed and lay in a literal "Future" Jerusalem street as a literal world watches in celebration of their deaths by exchanging literal gifts with one another because the prophets tormented the wicked world, as the final hours of this earth's existence unfolds in (The Day Of The Lord) 7th Trump/Angel sounding Rev 11:15 and the final judgement Rev 11:18 (The End)

John the Revelator does not agree with you that these events are future for you and me. They are long past. It was going to be the Scarlet Beast of Revelation 17:8, arising out of the bottomless pit, which would overcome the two witnesses and kill them (Rev. 11:7). That Scarlet Beast John wrote was also "ABOUT TO ARISE out of the abyss and GO INTO DESTRUCTION" in John's own first-century days. But before that Scarlet Beast was soon about to go into destruction in John's days, it would manage to overcome and kill those two witnesses. The time references are inescapable as applied to John's own first-century days for ALL of this to have already occurred long ago. You are missing the time-relevant terms, and this is messing up your interpretation of this Revelation 11 prediction which would soon happen for John's first-century audience.

 

[Earburner]

Fact is they aren't symbols or symbolic as you falsely believe and teach, they're future literal, physical, and it will take place literally upon this earth

If I must use the word "literally", I will here. God's literal thoughts and literal ways of accomplishing things are not how WE literally think and how WE literally accomplish things. Isa. 55:8-9.

Literal prophets in literal physical bodies that will bring literal plagues upon this literal world in tormentation of the wicked, they will be literally killed and lay dead in a literal street in Jerusalem, a literal world will watch their deaths in celebration exchanging literal gifts, because the two prophets tormented the world with plagues, a literal world will watch them being raised from the dead as the final hours of earth's existence unfolds
Jesus Is The Lord

God, who is a Spirit only (as once was Jesus), had no other option to speak to us corporately, except through the "voice boxes" of His chosen prophets.
Surely you don't believe that the OC. Prophets had conscious thoughts of their own about what they were saying?

Even though God spoke through them about the "Promise to come", none of the Patriarchs or the Prophets had any personal knowledge about the THREE manifestations of Christ, and when each event would take place, yet God faithfully spoke of all three manifestations of Jesus comings at randomn, throughout the OT. scriptures.
1. Past- by his mortal flesh.
2. Present- by his Holy Spirit.
3. Future- by his Immortal Glory, in flaming fire.
For example, all THREE of Jesus' manifestations (flesh, Spirit, Immortality) to usward, can be seen randomly in the book of Zechariah.
If you are an astute reader of the NT-KJV Bible only, you will not miss the choice, key words that the Holy Spirit uses through Jesus and the Apostles words, to help us SEE Jesus in the OT. scriptures.
In John 5:39 Jesus said:
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
So then, in Zechariah, as my suggested example, read through Zechariah-KJV, and allow "the Mind of Christ" within you to reveal Himself to you in each of his three manifestations. They might only be shown to you in a phrase, through an allegorical teaching, or just in a single word, with nothing being in chronological order. (Isa. 55:8-9).

Revelation 11:3-12KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Here are some clues of what we are looking at symbolically:
3. Power equals authority;
they shall prophesy 1260 days, or 3.5 years. John the Baptist prophesied for 6 mos. and Jesus prophesied for 3 years.
4. A direct reference to Zech. ch. 4
5. Equal retribution against all that hurt (or kill them). Literal fire does not come out of any mortal person, but fiery words of condemnation towards another does. James 3:5.
6. Again, to have power is to have authority to use that power, or not!
a. In the days of John the Baptist and Jesus, both were physically born having the symbolic "rain" from heaven, which is the Holy Spirit.
b. In the days PRIOR to their prophecy/testimony, the Holy Spirit was NOT YET permanently GIVEN to anyone. No not even Elijah, Abraham, Moses etc.
John 7:39.
7. At the time of John and Jesus, the ruling authority of satan in this world to kill them, was king Herod and the Roman Emp.
8a. The Great city is Jerusalem (which now is) being spiritually symbolized as Egypt (slavery/captivity); Sodom (sin).
We all are held in captivity by sin.
b. "Where also our Lord was crucified" is just an identifier that Jerusalem was indeed ripe for judgment by God. In 70AD. the KoG would be taken away from them and given to another. (Notice that: not only would the city be taken away, but the KoG ALSO).
9. Both John and Jesus were slated/destined to be cut short and murdered for God's purposes of OUR salvation. One might say that they were born with "the smell of death" upon them.
For 3.5 years during their joint ministry, they literally were "dead men walking".
John for 6 mos. and Jesus for 3 years, which equals to 1260 days.
Many of the people in Israel, as well as the many foreigners that visited from other countries and nations, did see the destined dead bodies of John and Jesus during those 3.5 years of their Joint ministry.
Because both John and Jesus were born having the permanent indwelling of God's Holy Spirit
Neither one could ever be kept to STAY in a grave for any amount of time. As Jesus said: "All who live and believe in me shall never die".
Therefore, symbolically no one could ever "suffer"/try to cause their dead bodies to stay in a grave....spiritually, they never died.
10. Being brought to repentance by God is not a joyous time, and most often it takes place under extreme duress of pain and suffering.
But once that point is reached, the candidate finds immediate release and wonderful joy of God's permanent presence through their confession of faith in Christ.
All Christians today, world wide celebrate Christmas, being that of rejoicing over the wonderful works of John and Jesus. Therefore, out of a joyous heart, Christians truly enjoy that "season of gift giving", of which commemorates the Gift of Eternal life that God gives to us.
11. And after 3.5 days is symbolic for 3.5 YEARS, which is the total length of their Joint ministry.
They were bodily resurrected, as shown in Mat. 27:50-54.
12. On the day of Jesus' Ascension, HE WAS NOT ALONE!! As he was not alone in the day of Him being The First esurrection.

"Straw Man" you can do better than that in trying to remove God's literal words through symbolic allegory

God Jesus Christ literally came to earth and took upon himself literal human flesh, this took place upon this literal earth, as he died on a literal cross of Calvary in Jerusalem for the sins of this literal world.

Can you track the OT prophetic words about all those issues that Jesus accomplished?

Revelation Chapter 11 There will be two literal future prophets that will testify for God before a world watching for 1260 literal days, they will bring literal plagues upon this literal world representing God, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

These Two Prophets will finish their testimony and be killed, they will lay dead for 3 5 literal days in a Jerusalem street, a literal world will watch their deaths in celebration exchanging literal gifts because the two prophets literally tormented the world through literal plagues upon this earth, they will be raised from the dead and literally ascend to heaven before a future literal world watching as the final hours of Earth's existence unfolds in (The Day Of The Lord) The End

Jesus Is The Lord

And I suppose that you also take the story about the rich man and Lazarus literally.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Kings 1:10KJV
10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

1 Samuel 15:23KJV
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

I think you still misunderstood! Here is why:

2 Kings 1:10 has a much deeper point than simply claiming that “Elijah could make literal fire come down.”

2 Kings 1:9 KJV
Then the king sent unto him a captain of fifty with his fifty. And he went up to him: and, behold, he sat on the top of an hill. And he spake unto him, Thou man of God, the king hath said, Come down.

2 Kings 1:10 KJV
And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

Notice carefully what Elijah said: “If I be a man of God.” Elijah was not demonstrating that he possessed some supernatural ability to produce fire whenever he wanted. He was calling upon God to vindicate His prophet and demonstrate that Elijah truly was a man of God.

The fire came from heaven. It was God's fire, not Elijah's own power. Hello?!

This is the spiritual significance of the event: God was confirming the authority of His prophet and judging those who came against the servant whom God had sent. The miracle was a divine testimony that Elijah truly spoke on God's behalf.

We see the same principle in 1 Kings 18 when Elijah confronted the prophets of Baal.

1 Kings 18:36 KJV
And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.

1 Kings 18:37 KJV
Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.

1 Kings 18:38 KJV
Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

Again, the fire was God's testimony! It demonstrated that the LORD was God and that Elijah was His servant.

Therefore, we must be careful when someone takes the literal fire of 2 Kings 1 and automatically applies it to Revelation 11:5. Big mistake! The historical event in 2 Kings was literal, but that does not mean every later biblical reference to fire must be interpreted as literal fire. Nope!

In fact, Revelation 11:5 specifically says that the fire proceeds out of the mouths of the Two Witnesses. Not from heaven as you think!

Revelation 11:5 KJV
And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

Why is the fire coming out of their mouths? Scripture gives us a very important clue, if you ever bother to read:

Jeremiah 5:14 KJV
Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.

Jeremiah 23:29 KJV
Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

Did the Lord talk about literal fire? Of course not! His word in his servents' mouth will be like fire which spiritually means, judgment upon those who do not want to hear the truth.

Now compare that with Revelation 11.

Revelation 11:3 KJV
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

The connection is important: God gives power to His witnesses, and they prophesy. Their testimony comes out of their mouths. Not out of heaven! Scripture describes God's Word coming out of their mouths "as" fire. Not literal fire! And Revelation describes fire proceeding out of the mouths of the witnesses and devouring their enemies.

That is why you can't come up with false claim that, “The Two Witnesses call literal fire from heaven just like Elijah.”

In 2 Kings 1, the fire came down from heaven.

In Revelation 11:5, the fire proceeds out of the mouths of the witnesses.

Those are not the same description.

And there is another important passage that should not be ignored. When James and John, the sons of thunder, wanted to imitate Elijah and call down fire upon those who rejected Christ, Jesus rebuked them.

Luke 9:54 KJV
And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

Luke 9:55 KJV
But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

So yes, Elijah's literal fire in 2 Kings 1 certainly happened, but the spiritual lesson is God's vindication of His prophet and God's judgment upon those who oppose His Word...through their testimony coming out of their mouth!! Hello?

That does not give us permission to take the literal mechanism of Elijah's miracle and apply it into Revelation 11:5. Bad move!

Instead, we should compare Scripture with Scripture.

God's Word is fire.

God puts His words in the mouths of His servants as fire.

God gives power to His witnesses, and they prophesy.

And Revelation says fire proceeds out of the mouths of the Two Witnesses and devours their enemies.

That is why the spiritual significance of the fire is far more important than simply arguing about whether Elijah's fire was literal. The real question is: What is God showing us through the fire coming out of the mouths of His witnesses?

So no, your literal interpretation for Revelation 11 remains refuted!

 

[Earburner]

Please read what I wrote more carefully. I never wrote that Zechariah 4:11-14 was to be fulfilled in AD 70, NEITHER will it be fulfilled in our future. Zechariah 4:11-14 was a prediction regarding the post-exilic return, when Zerubbabel's hands would not only lay the foundation stone of that post-exilic temple, but his hands would finish it as well - which he did accomplish back then. The high priest Joshua with his lineage going back to Zadok (as God required for any high priest in the post-exilic temple in Ezekiel 44:15-16) was one of those two "olive trees" anointed and cleansed to serve in that post-exilic temple. Remember, there was always a backup second high priest called a "sagan" who was also anointed to serve as high priest, just in case the main high priest became ritually unclean or was incapacitated in any way so that he couldn't perform his duties on the feast day.

The language regarding Joshua the high priest in Zechariah 3:1 has him "standing before the angel of the Lord" to be cleansed and dressed for his high priest role, just as Ezekiel 44:15-16 describes the high priests with their Zadok lineage when they would enter into the most holy place, "to come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood...They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table to minister unto me...". This is a duplicate of the language of "the two olive trees" on either side of the menorah candlestick in Zechariah 4:14 - "the two anointed ones that stand by the Lord of the whole earth". This is a description of the high priest role. It is the same thing with "the two olive trees" in Revelation 11:4, with its context describing the Jerusalem temple in Rev. 11:1-2. Those "two olive trees were again described as "standing before the God of the earth." TWO HIGH PRIESTS are being spoken of here.

God had once decreed that only the Zadok high priests could "stand before me" to serve in that post-exilic temple, but He got rid of that system when Christ became our "Great High Priest" after the superior deathless order of Melchizedek in AD 33. But the people of Israel rejected Christ Jesus and insisted on still using their own obsolete high priesthood. This is why God had to very publicly eradicate the high priesthood in AD 67-68 with the death of the two witnesses (the former high priests Ananas and Joshua), because this high priest institution had become a competing idol for those still insisting on doing things the old way.

God prepared a very, very specific hour, day, month, and year (Rev. 9:15) for this public elimination of His formerly-approved Zadok high priesthood. The Zadok high priesthood had served God's purpose since the post-exilic return described in Zechariah 4 and Ezekiel 44, but that system had become a "weak and beggarly element" in comparison to Christ as the Great High Priest. As Hebrews 8:13 says, "In that he saith A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." And this did happen soon to the entire desolated, defunct temple system in Jerusalem between the AD 66-70 years. It "vanished away" - never to be restored after that.

I find that you are extremely hard pressed to prove that the literal historic is the only thing that God's prophetic words shall deliver. Don't get me wrong, by all means history has its place in the prophetic being fulfilled, but God is a spirit who lives in eternity where there is with Him no need for time, except what He has ordained for this world and us.

So then, what is the time of this world to God? Nothing but a series of events, catorgorized by time, whereby in His foreknowledge about everything, of every detail that will happen, is not programmed by Him, but rather is only known by Him. By that reason alone, it is very easy for God to speak about His own outlook for the future that He wants for us who believe in His Son.
However, much of it is coded and signified, so as to keep the coming of His only begotten Son into the world, shrouded IN SECRECY.

 Rom. 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
1 Cor. 2:8
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. [Which would have been a sad day for all of us, including God.]

So then, it's not by "the wisdom of men" that we can know the future by a series of historic recordings, but rather by the teachings of His Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 2:13) "according to the Revelation of the mystery" through the mind of Christ within us, which was kept secret since the world began.
1 Cor. 2:12-13
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[KUWN]

I can't wait to see what you will do with the story about the Rich man and Lazarus. Luke 16:20-31.

I will be glad to talk about that, but what particularly are you referring to?

 

[TribulationSigns]

You can read here:
​

The Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man​

(An Exposition of Luke 16:19-31)​

By Tony Warren​

​

 

[Earburner]

I will be glad to talk about that, but what particularly are you referring to?

I think that the topic is well covered by @TribulationSigns in post #71, that the Rich man and Lazarus is a parable, of which is a semi-ficticious story meant to deliver a singular truth.

 

[KUWN]

I think that the topic is well covered by @TribulationSigns in post #71, that the Rich man and Lazarus is a parable, of which is a semi-ficticious story meant to deliver a singular truth.

Strangely, there is no post #71. It goes from 70 to 72 (maybe the owners of this site took it down), so I was unable to respond to TribulationSigns post. When I was in Bible College back in the 1980's I was made aware that no parable contains an actual person's name. You would have to handle this dilemma (why is this the only 'parable' that contains a person's name) before you can call it a parable. I would be interested in discussing Luke 16 with you. To save time, can you clarify your concern with the Rich man and Lazarus. What specifically is your point?

 

[stevesonthebay]

As a Born again Amillennial believer in Christ, I have always understood that God's prophetic words are mostly based upon His own Eternal Spiritual thoughts/language, and not so much that of our own human thoughts and how we understand the words of our own written languages.
Isa. 55:8-9
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

What if, instead of reading and interpreting those scriptures in Rev. 11:1-14 literally, according to our ways of thinking, we are to interpret them spiritually by the Mind of Christ within us, so that we might know that the biblical "Great City" is not about buildings like that of man, but rather it is God's description of the people of God in which He desires to dwell?

In 1 Cor. ch. 2:9-16, Paul explains quite clearly that the spiritual value of our understanding is to be revealed to us by "comparing spiritual things with spiritual", thus allowing the Mind of Christ's Holy Spirit within us to interpret God's spiritual truths to us, and not that which is preached to us by the ways of "the wisdom of men".

In Rev. 11:8 we are specifically shown that "the great city" is to be understood in the spiritual truth of what it is being "COMPARED WITH". In that example, we are to understand that the Great City is compared to that of Egypt (symbolized as slavery/captivity) and that of Sodom (symbolized as sin). Putting the two together, we can conclude that in the comparison by example, God has been working to deliver His people from their CAPTIVITY of SIN.

Since the first manifestation of Jesus, that is the "spiritual" message to all of us, through faith in Jesus' sacrificial death.
For the past 2,026 years, in each "Year of our Lord", God has been "patient" and "longsuffering" in His "Promise" and attempt to  DELIVER each of us from the "CAPTIVITY" of "SIN", "not willing that any should perish".
However, if by faith in Jesus, we do not receive the Free Gift of God's Deliverence by His Gift of Salvation, our names will not be found written in the book of Life and therefore there is NO escape from the second death.

Has anyone here dared to believe that those who God prophesied of in Zech. 4:14, as being "His two anointed ones", are in fact that of John the Baptist and Jesus?

Could it be that Rev. 11:1-14 is nothing more than an allegorical story of spiritual truth, telling us all that the literal manifestation of John the Baptist and Jesus, were indeed God's promised ones, being they who are described as the "two anointed ones", and therefore the prophecy of "the two witnesses", has already been fulfilled?

I think the two witnesses whoever they may be will be for this age and represent the same role as it was for John the Baptist and the other great prophets of God and witnesses of Christ.

Now the great representatives of God are few and far between. John the Baptist and the 12 were the last near on 2,000 years ago. The next will not come until the end times.

Just like the time and conditions were right and ready for the prophets and the road was made ready for John to proclaim the coming Messiah so it will be the for coming of the two witnesses.

When John was proclaiming the Christ this was a time of Messianic thinking. It happened at the right time that Johns words rang in peoples ears. Any other time and it would not be recieved and have the same impact. The same with the prophesies and judges. Their proclamations came at a time that the peoples ears were ready and the words had the most impact.

I think it will be the same for the two witnesses. If they come 100 or 50 years ago the time would not be right and the people would not understand or listen and Gods spirit would not have the same impact.

It says the witnesses will speak truths that the people cannot ignore and it torments them. They will hate it so much that they will kill the two witnesses. Obviously to Christians this will be great revelations.

So I think the time of preparing the way will happen before they come. If we could imagine a time when people are willing to kill witnesses of Christ. Even in the face of knowing that the witnesses spke the truth. Because their words for ready for that moment in time that people ears (mind) heard that truth. Could not deny it.

I think that is the present time in preparing the way for the two witnesses. People are becoming willing to kill the messenger becuase they speak the truth. People are far more aware and can see the evil in the world. The world has tried and failed every trick in the book to deny the truth and the excuses are running out.

So when the witnesses come with words that are greater than any words people can speak that it cuts to the bone they will become like those whole plotted to kill Christ. But without the trial.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Strangely, there is no post #71. It goes from 70 to 72 (maybe the owners of this site took it down), so I was unable to respond to TribulationSigns post. When I was in Bible College back in the 1980's I was made aware that no parable contains an actual person's name. You would have to handle this dilemma (why is this the only 'parable' that contains a person's name) before you can call it a parable. I would be interested in discussing Luke 16 with you. To save time, can you clarify your concern with the Rich man and Lazarus. What specifically is your point?

Post #71 still exists. Read the article first so you’ll know what the name Lazarus Jesus refers to.

 

[Earburner]

Strangely, there is no post #71. It goes from 70 to 72 (maybe the owners of this site took it down), so I was unable to respond to TribulationSigns post. When I was in Bible College back in the 1980's I was made aware that no parable contains an actual person's name. You would have to handle this dilemma (why is this the only 'parable' that contains a person's name) before you can call it a parable. I would be interested in discussing Luke 16 with you. To save time, can you clarify your concern with the Rich man and Lazarus. What specifically is your point?

Actually there are a few issues that the story imposes upon the reader:
1. We assume that Jesus wouldn't fabricate a fictional story, therefore we unconsciously accept ALL of His words as being truth.
2. The Rich man makes requests to God while dead in his grave.
3. The rich man is tormented by a flame.
3. Salvation is determined as to wealth vs. poverty.
4. Both were dead, but alive and awake. Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom (heaven?), and the rich man was in hell (an area of fire).
5. Lazarus was visible to the rich man thus causing torment to the rich man.

 

[ewq1938]

Actually there are a few issues that the story imposes upon the reader:
1. We assume that Jesus wouldn't fabricate a fictional story, therefore we unconsciously accept ALL of His words as being truth.

Jesus always spoke the truth.

2. The Rich man makes requests to God while dead in his grave.

No issue there.

3. The rich man is tormented by a flame.

Good reason to avoid that place.

3. Salvation is determined as to wealth vs. poverty.

Only in this situation. Job was rich but not like this one.

4. Both were dead, but alive and awake.

Dead physically but soul is alive and awake.

Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom (heaven?), and the rich man was in hell (his grave).

Yes.

5. Lazarus was visible to the rich man thus causing torment to the rich man.

Yes.

 

[gpresdo]

That is what happens when you do not interpret the Original Text literally. Your symbolizing and allegory method will never allow you to be certain of the text, like the Gospels say, Jesus spoke as one having authority, not like the Scribes and Pharisees. For example, I take the Millennial Reign of Christ literally, and I will stand before him to give account of that interpretation. You are, in my opinion, rejecting the fundamental clarity of Scripture. I will stand before Christ and say, "You said there would be a Millennial Reign the Second Coming, what was I suppose to believe?"

Thus a good policy;

Take the Bible literally wherever possible...if typical, figurately or symbolic language is used then look for a literal interpretation it intends to convey.

Look for scripture which interprets scripture.

Do not spiritualize the Bible.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Thus a good policy;

Take the Bible literally wherever possible...if typical, figurately or symbolic language is used then look for a literal interpretation it intends to convey.

Look for scripture which interprets scripture.

Do not spiritualize the Bible.

No, God has given us His Word in a way that requires us to seek the spiritual meaning through Scripture itself. We don’t simply make up interpretations as we go along. The meaning must be established by the Word of God.

Paul says, “the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him” (1 Corinthians 2:14). He also tells us that “the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal” (2 Corinthians 4:18).

Scripture itself teaches us to look beyond the merely physical and earthly to the spiritual reality. Jesus said, “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life” (John 6:63).

So if you approach Scripture with a carnal, natural mind and reject anything that involves spiritual interpretation simply because you dislike “spiritualizing,” you are going to miss the truth that the Holy Spirit is revealing through the Word. We are not free to invent meanings—but neither are we free to reject the spiritual meaning that Scripture itself establishes.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Actually there are a few issues that the story imposes upon the reader:
1. We assume that Jesus wouldn't fabricate a fictional story, therefore we unconsciously accept ALL of His words as being truth.
2. The Rich man makes requests to God while dead in his grave.
3. The rich man is tormented by a flame.
3. Salvation is determined as to wealth vs. poverty.
4. Both were dead, but alive and awake. Lazarus was in Abraham's bosom (heaven?), and the rich man was in hell (his grave).
5. Lazarus was visible to the rich man thus causing torment to the rich man.

That is not quite correct. Did you actually read the article? The central argument is that Jesus is using a parable with spiritual symbolism, particularly concerning Israel, the Gentiles, the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant—not giving a literal description of people consciously burning in hell immediately after death.

Short summary of the article if someone is too lazy or refuse to read it.​

• It is a parable, not a literal account of two men in heaven and hell. The author argues that reading it literally creates contradictions with other Scriptures concerning death, resurrection, and final judgment.
• The rich man represents national Israel under the Old Covenant. His purple and fine linen symbolize the spiritual privileges and riches God had entrusted to Israel—“the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law...” (Romans 9:4).
• The problem was not physical wealth but spiritual pride. Israel had been entrusted with God's Word and covenant blessings but became self-righteous and failed to properly distribute those “riches” to others. The author connects this with Luke 16:10–15, where the Pharisees are condemned for trusting in themselves.
• Lazarus represents the spiritually poor and needy. He is poor, covered with sores, and dependent upon the rich man for crumbs. The author connects this with the “poor in spirit” (Matthew 5:3)—those who recognize their spiritual need and depend upon God's righteousness rather than their own.
• There is a strong Gentile connection. The sores represent uncleanness, while the dogs reinforce the imagery of Gentiles being regarded by Jews as outsiders or “unclean.” The author specifically connects Lazarus' crumbs with the Gentile woman in Matthew 15:22–28, where Jesus speaks of the children's bread and the “dogs” eating the crumbs.
• The great reversal represents the transition from Old Covenant Israel to New Covenant Israel. The one who was “rich” is brought low, while those who were spiritually poor are brought into the kingdom. This fits Jesus' statement that “the first shall be last; and the last first” (Luke 13:30).
• “Abraham's bosom” represents the covenant people of God. Lazarus being received into Abraham's bosom symbolizes the Gentiles and others who are brought into the promises through faith, rather than relying upon physical descent from Abraham.
• The final message is a warning to listen to God's Word now. The rich man's reference to “Moses and the prophets” (Luke 16:29) emphasizes that God's revelation is sufficient and that people must respond to it during this life.

In one sentence​

The author sees Lazarus and the rich man as a spiritual picture of the fall of proud, self-righteous Old Covenant Israel and the bringing in of the spiritually poor—including Gentiles—into the New Covenant kingdom through faith in Christ, rather than a literal picture of two individuals presently experiencing heaven and hell. Selah!

Another point to think about is the “dogs” and the Gentile woman in Matthew 15 is especially important because the article explicitly makes that connection: Lazarus wanting the crumbs from the rich man's table parallels the Gentile woman saying that “the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.”

Spiritually discerned is what you need to understand what the parable is really about instead of what Sunday School taught you.

Selah.