The Two Anointed Ones = The Two Witnesses

[Earburner]

I think the two witnesses whoever they may be will be for this age and represent the same role as it was for John the Baptist and the other great prophets of God and witnesses of Christ.

As well as being our Savior, Jesus was a prophet, being the last prophet. Heb. 1
1. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Now the great representatives of God are few and far between. John the Baptist and the 12 were the last near on 2,000 years ago. The next will not come until the enProphet.

"The next" prophet that came after John was the Lord Jesus Christ. Heb. 1:1-2 explains that Jesus was the last prophet, "in these last days".

Just like the time and conditions were right and ready for the prophets and the road was made ready for John to proclaim the coming Messiah so it will be the for coming of the two witnesses.

When John was proclaiming the Christ this was a time of Messianic thinking. It happened at the right time that Johns words rang in peoples ears. Any other time and it would not be recieved and have the same impact. The same with the prophesies and judges. Their proclamations came at a time that the peoples ears were ready and the words had the most impact.

According to Heb. 1:1-2,
Jesus (who was "brought forth from time everlasting"), was the Last Prophet that God raised for Him to speak through.

I think it will be the same for the two witnesses. If they come 100 or 50 years ago the time would not be right and the people would not understand or listen and Gods spirit would not have the same impact.

It says the witnesses will speak truths that the people cannot ignore and it torments them. They will hate it so much that they will kill the two witnesses. Obviously to Christians this will be great revelations.

So I think the time of preparing the way will happen before they come. If we could imagine a time when people are willing to kill witnesses of Christ. Even in the face of knowing that the witnesses spke the truth. Because their words for ready for that moment in time that people ears (mind) heard that truth. Could not deny it.

I think that is the present time in preparing the way for the two witnesses. People are becoming willing to kill the messenger becuase they speak the truth. People are far more aware and can see the evil in the world. The world has tried and failed every trick in the book to deny the truth and the excuses are running out.

So when the witnesses come with words that are greater than any words people can speak that it cuts to the bone they will become like those whole plotted to kill Christ. But without the trial.

John the Baptist was the witness of who Jesus was/is.
Jesus was/is the witness of who God the Father is.
From the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus:
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, NEITHER will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead [who is Jesus].

The Lord Jesus is the Last witness of all the prophets.

 

[Earburner]

That is not quite correct. Did you actually read the article? The central argument is that Jesus is using a parable with spiritual symbolism, particularly concerning Israel, the Gentiles, the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant—not giving a literal description of people consciously burning in hell immediately after death.

Short summary of the article if someone is too lazy or refuse to read it.​

• It is a parable, not a literal account of two men in heaven and hell. The author argues that reading it literally creates contradictions with other Scriptures concerning death, resurrection, and final judgment.
• The rich man represents national Israel under the Old Covenant. His purple and fine linen symbolize the spiritual privileges and riches God had entrusted to Israel—“the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law...” (Romans 9:4).
• The problem was not physical wealth but spiritual pride. Israel had been entrusted with God's Word and covenant blessings but became self-righteous and failed to properly distribute those “riches” to others. The author connects this with Luke 16:10–15, where the Pharisees are condemned for trusting in themselves.
• Lazarus represents the spiritually poor and needy. He is poor, covered with sores, and dependent upon the rich man for crumbs. The author connects this with the “poor in spirit” (Matthew 5:3)—those who recognize their spiritual need and depend upon God's righteousness rather than their own.
• There is a strong Gentile connection. The sores represent uncleanness, while the dogs reinforce the imagery of Gentiles being regarded by Jews as outsiders or “unclean.” The author specifically connects Lazarus' crumbs with the Gentile woman in Matthew 15:22–28, where Jesus speaks of the children's bread and the “dogs” eating the crumbs.
• The great reversal represents the transition from Old Covenant Israel to New Covenant Israel. The one who was “rich” is brought low, while those who were spiritually poor are brought into the kingdom. This fits Jesus' statement that “the first shall be last; and the last first” (Luke 13:30).
• “Abraham's bosom” represents the covenant people of God. Lazarus being received into Abraham's bosom symbolizes the Gentiles and others who are brought into the promises through faith, rather than relying upon physical descent from Abraham.
• The final message is a warning to listen to God's Word now. The rich man's reference to “Moses and the prophets” (Luke 16:29) emphasizes that God's revelation is sufficient and that people must respond to it during this life.

In one sentence​

The author sees Lazarus and the rich man as a spiritual picture of the fall of proud, self-righteous Old Covenant Israel and the bringing in of the spiritually poor—including Gentiles—into the New Covenant kingdom through faith in Christ, rather than a literal picture of two individuals presently experiencing heaven and hell. Selah!

Another point to think about is the “dogs” and the Gentile woman in Matthew 15 is especially important because the article explicitly makes that connection: Lazarus wanting the crumbs from the rich man's table parallels the Gentile woman saying that “the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.”

Spiritually discerned is what you need to understand what the parable is really about instead of what Sunday School taught you.

Selah.

In my answer to @KUWN ,I was answering his request of "what my point was" about the parable of the RM&Lazaras.
In my post #76, I informed him of the imposed errors of belief that the parable was introducing, of what goes on in the spiritual world after death.
Unfortunately, in that semi-fictional story, Christians today see those errors as being absolute truth, simply because they came from the mouth of Jesus, who is the Truth.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Don't get me wrong, by all means history has its place in the prophetic being fulfilled, but God is a spirit who lives in eternity where there is with Him no need for time, except what He has ordained for this world and us.

That part I underlined in your statement is exactly what I am posting about. In the OT, God would boast about His ability to call the end from the beginning, even before events came to pass on earth, just to demonstrate His omniscience and His deity. I am merely posting about Revelation's past fulfillment concerning the exact time in which Christ said He would accomplish those things. I glory in a God who could reveal ahead of time to his prophet John the exact details of what was about to occur in John's own days, and for which we have records by historians and archaeological evidence of a very detailed past fulfillment of Revelation's prophecies.

However, much of it is coded and signified, so as to keep the coming of His only begotten Son into the world, shrouded IN SECRECY.

The year for the coming of God's son as "Messiah the Prince" was most definitely revealed by Daniel's 70 week prophecy. The year of the Messiah's manifestation at the beginning of that 70th week was so well known that even the Samaritan woman at the well knew that she could expect to see this in her days. The Pharisees were likewise well-apprised of the year when Messiah was to show up on the scene, which is why they sent a delegation to John the Baptist in AD 30 to ask if he were that prophet. None of this was "shrouded in secrecy", as you suppose. Anyone informed of Daniel's 70 week prophecy could figure out the AD 30 year of Christ's manifestation to Israel.

 Rom. 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

This "mystery" Paul openly taught and revealed to everyone in his own generation - that the Gentiles were then and always had been part of the family of God if they were the "children of faith" along with faithful Abraham. Anyone who was at all perceptive among the ethnic Jewish community in the OT could see that, even back then, God was granting family-of-God status and inheritance to strangers not from Israel who chose to unite themselves to worshipping the God of Israel and following His laws.

So then, it's not by "the wisdom of men" that we can know the future by a series of historic recordings, but rather by the teachings of His Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 2:13) "according to the Revelation of the mystery" through the mind of Christ within us, which was kept secret since the world began.
1 Cor. 2:12-13
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

I have already given you above the spiritual implications of why God got rid of the two witnesses long ago, the former high priests Ananas and Joshua. You don't agree with those spiritual implications, but that is your own issue. ALL of Revelation has been fulfilled with the lone exception of Revelation 10:4 - the prophecies which the seven thunders uttered, but that were "sealed up" for times in the distant future from John's own first-century generation.

To "seal up" a prophecy is to reserve it for a much later fulfillment than the immediate present. Those seven thunders' prophecies which were "sealed up" in Rev. 10:4 included events also related to us and our future. But ALL OTHER predictions which were related to the future God told John were "ABOUT TO BE hereafter" (Rev. 1:19). These were SOON to be fulfilled after AD 60 when John was writing Revelation. And that INCLUDES the two witnesses being slain in the streets of Jerusalem long ago in AD 66.

 

[Earburner]

Jesus always spoke the truth.



No issue there.



Good reason to avoid that place.




Only in this situation. Job was rich but not like this one.




Dead physically but soul is alive and awake.




Yes.




Yes.

And my point was, in the parable of the RM&L, all of the issues that I pointed out are based on FICTION of what the Jews themselves believed.

But, just because Jesus reiterated their beliefs back to them, that doesn't make what Jesus said about an after life to be factual and true. Unfortunately, the story gets read verbatim and then lies get cast into truth in peoples minds as being truth, simply because they don't understand what a parable is and how it works!!

However, what Jesus did say in Luke 16:31
IS THE TRUTH, and is the ONLY reason FOR the parable.

 

[Earburner]

That part I underlined in your statement is exactly what I am posting about. In the OT, God would boast about His ability to call the end from the beginning, even before events came to pass on earth, just to demonstrate His omniscience and His deity. I am merely posting about Revelation's past fulfillment concerning the exact time in which Christ said He would accomplish those things. I glory in a God who could reveal ahead of time to his prophet John the exact details of what was about to occur in John's own days, and for which we have records by historians and archaeological evidence of a very detailed past fulfillment of Revelation's prophecies.

I agree with your understanding about God's omniscience.
However, I disagree as to who you are saying the two anointed ones were, that did come AFTER the appearance of John the Baptist and the first manifestation of Christ in the flesh.
I perceive that you are reading Zech. chs. 3 and 4 from the Douay-Rheims Bible.

The year for the coming of God's son as "Messiah the Prince" was most definitely revealed by Daniel's 70 week prophecy. The year of the Messiah's manifestation at the beginning of that 70th week was so well known that even the Samaritan woman at the well knew that she could expect to see this in her days. The Pharisees were likewise well-apprised of the year when Messiah was to show up on the scene, which is why they sent a delegation to John the Baptist in AD 30 to ask if he were that prophet. None of this was "shrouded in secrecy", as you suppose. Anyone informed of Daniel's 70 week prophecy could figure out the AD 30 year of Christ's manifestation to Israel.

As an Amillennial believer in Christ, I fully agree and do understand that the 70th was the week of John and Jesus's joint ministry for 3.5 years, and then for the other 3.5 years, Jesus nourished the early chuch by his Holy Spirit through His Apostles, hence their epistles of the same.

This "mystery" Paul openly taught and revealed to everyone in his own generation - that the Gentiles were then and always had been part of the family of God if they were the "children of faith" along with faithful Abraham. Anyone who was at all perceptive among the ethnic Jewish community in the OT could see that, even back then, God was granting family-of-God status and inheritance to strangers not from Israel who chose to unite themselves to worshipping the God of Israel and following His laws.


I have already given you above the spiritual implications of why God got rid of the two witnesses long ago, the former high priests Ananas and Joshua. You don't agree with those spiritual implications, but that is your own issue.

"God got rid of" his Two anointed ones of Zeck ch. 4??
In regards to Ananas and Joshua, whom you call "the two anointed ones", as being anything spiritual, I think that you have derailed yourself by looking at all of Zech. ch. 3 and 4 as being strictly historical and nothing more.
In so doing, you have virtually destroyed the meaning of the word anointed.
But, if you wanted to say that John and Jesus were anointed, then I would gladly agree with you.

I know Who Zech. 3:8-10 is talking about. He who is the "Branch" (vs.8) is one of the two anointed ones, who were John the Baptist and Jesus, in their Joint ministry for 1260 days, aka 3.5 years. John for 6 mos. and then Jesus for 3 years.
After Jesus Ascension, Jesus continued for another 3 years by his Holy Spirit. That equals 7 years, aka one prophetic week of the 70 in Dan. 9:27.

ALL of Revelation has been fulfilled with the lone exception of Revelation 10:4 - the prophecies which the seven thunders uttered, but that were "sealed up" for times in the distant future from John's own first-century generation.

To seal up what the seven thunders said may be nothing more than something they said that we are not capable of knowing, while we are in our mortal flesh.

To "seal up" a prophecy is to reserve it for a much later fulfillment than the immediate present. Those seven thunders' prophecies which were "sealed up" in Rev. 10:4 included events also related to us and our future. But ALL OTHER predictions which were related to the future God told John were "ABOUT TO BE hereafter" (Rev. 1:19). These were SOON to be fulfilled after AD 60 when John was writing Revelation. And that INCLUDES the two witnesses being slain in the streets of Jerusalem long ago in AD 66.

No, all of Revelation has NOT been fulfilled.
For one, the Mark of the Beast has not yet been manifested, and neither has WW3 taken place, whereby one third of men are slain/killed in ONE 24 hour day. Rev. 9:13-21.

 

[ewq1938]

And my point was, in the parable of the RM&L, all of the issues that I pointed out are based on FICTION of what the Jews themselves believed.

But, just because Jesus reiterated their beliefs back to them, that doesn't make what Jesus said about an after life to be factual and true.

So Jesus told lies to the disciples? That's not true. What he said was true, whether truth in pareable or truth about two literal people.

Unfortunately, the story gets read verbatim and then lies get cast into truth in peoples minds as being truth, simply because they don't understand what a parable is and how it works!!

However, what Jesus did say in Luke 16:31
IS THE TRUTH, and is the ONLY reason FOR the parable.

Did Jesus tell any other lie-filled parables?

 

[Earburner]

So Jesus told lies to the disciples? That's not true. What he said was true, whether truth in pareable or truth about two literal people.



Did Jesus tell any other lie-filled parables?

Is the parable of the ten virgins about literal virgins?
My point is, a parable doesn't have to be true, as long as it is delivering a truth that is true.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Is the parable of the ten virgins about literal virgins?

No.

I believe that the parable indeed must be interpreted in light of scripture, itself, and considering everything (including time spans) that God has incorporated into it. To my thinking, that means it's a parable about the differing actions of diverse virgins, preceding the wedding. For example, those unjust virgins living precariously, and the just virgins living by faith, though Christ seem to tarry. I cannot agree that this is just a general gospel proclamation to the world, but is a end time event "Specifically" illustrating the full corporate Church, which the "10" (signifying fullness) virgins represent. Selah!

Moreover, it seems to me that it is "specifically" for the end time virgins who are asleep while the bridegroom tarried (a whole Bible study in itself).

Habakkuk 2:1-4

• "I will stand upon my watch, and set me upon the tower, and will watch to see what he will say unto me, and what I shall answer when I am reproved.
• And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.
• For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.
• Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith."

Though it tarries, it will not tarry! It's not an enigma, it's a proclamation that though it seems the end is here, there is yet an appointed time beyond that, as the Church is judged for unfaithfulness. A time when Christ seem to tarry and the Church slumbers until it is told to "go out" to meet the bridegroom. Parables are not just general inconsistent scattered truths, they are often very specific prophesies interwoven throughout scripture.

All the virgins are specifically wakened by a call at midnight, that the bridegroom was coming (not had come). And that they should rise up and "go ye out" to meet Him. The Going Out to meet Him itself illustrates that they could not yet see him in the air, but they had to take action to "go out" to meet Him. Both the foolish and the wise hear the call. Is the call to "look up, your redemption draweth nigh?" No, it is to trim your lamps and go out to meet Him. For example, Christ fis on His way, go out to the wedding to meet Him. Which brings us to the real "point" of the parable. The point being the foolish could not take the journey in immediately "going out" to meet Him, for they had no oil to light their way. Which to any logical thinker would illustrate they couldn't "see" to go out to meet Him without the light provided for the lamps. And they proceeded to search them that buy and sell to get that oil. It's not rocket science!

By contrast, when Christ comes on the clouds of Glory, every eye shall see Him, and every tongue shall confess. There's no, "go to them that sell" and get oil that you can see how to get there! It's an entirely different scenario! I think it is in error to attempt to over-simplify a parable because we may not like the conclusions that it inevitably otherwise leads one to. In following it meticulously, we are following it Biblically. In other words, they all had to go out to meet him, and they needed "lamps for the journey", and by the time the foolish went to the buyers and sellers, it was too late. Without question, there is indeed a time reference. I would agree with those who have already said, we cannot ignore these truths so obviously and carefully inspired by God, or chalk them up to over-complicating the parable. Any complication one derives from following scripture meticulously and with care was meant to be there, and was placed there by God.

Matthew 24:43-44

• "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
• Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

Clearly, in my mind, the Lord is declaring that the house of those who do not watch will be broken up by the thief. The question is, what house is this? And why are we to be watching for a thief? Is Christ a Thief? YES! If the true Christians are watching, they will see "THE THIEF" coming to break up their house, and will not suffer their house to be broken up. That's what Christ said! Here is that biblical fact:
The Lord is coming, but we do not see him yet in the air, but we can "see" him coming to judge his unfaithful church first - which is the signs that Christ warned us to watch out that he is coming! Only if you have the oil in your lamp, you will be able to "see" it and get ready to go meet him. If He had wanted to say, just be prepared for my coming, He would have said that. But there is more to scripture than meets the common eye.

Revelation 16:14-15

• "For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
• Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that Watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

Context! Is Christ coming in judgment upon the Church as a thief, before He comes in the clouds of Glory to rapture the Church? YES! Did that day come upon the five foolish virgins as a thief, and they were running to and fro seeking to buy and sell (hint: mark of the beast)? Obviously, since they were spiritually unprepared, becasue they were not sealed by God, Revelation 9. Just like Judas, one of the 12, as an example, was in God's words "a thief" who betrayed the body of Christ and was judged (cursed is anyone that hangeth on a tree). Is this just coincidence? When Christ said a thief comes in through the widow, was He just informing us how to prevent burglary? The judgment is written, "begin at my sanctuary!" Has a house been broken up and the Lord has not done it? This is why we are witness the FALL of the Church today, beacsue they are being judged by God! This is the signs of Christ's coming! The darkened of the Sun, the moon become blood, the stars fallings all pointing to the judgment of the church. The church is being judged by the theft (christ) who agrees and allows the thieves and robbers (false prophets and christ) for this purpose, Revelation 17:16-18.

John 10:7-10

• "Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
• All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
• I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
• The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

Who are the thieves and robbers? Is that literal? If we trace back those thieves and robbers, they relate in scripture to the buyers and sellers. The same buyers and sellers that Christ "threw out" of the Temple. The same buyers and sellers in the court, Revelation 11:2, that God will give to tred down the holy city, and that ultimately God will throw out of the Temple. Scripture cannot be interpreted in a vacuum!

These five foolish virgins represent that part of the Church that is judged, left without oil, running to and fro seeking, but not finding it. They seek to die in Christ, but unable to because it is too late. The salvation has ended because God has sealed all of the Elect.

The parable of the ten virgins isn't a parable about only about getting ready for Christ's return, rather it's a parable specifically about the corporate or "external Covenant" Church. Some within it with the light who can thus see their way to go out when they hear the call to "go out" to meet the bridegroom. And some without oil who are left behind to go to them that buy and sell - they are the ones who will be deceived by false prophets and christs!

It is happening right now if you have spiritual eyes and ears. Selah!

 

[ewq1938]

Is the parable of the ten virgins about literal virgins?

The example is about physical virgins but that isn't really the important part of the parable. (neither is the sleeping part--just wanted to add that into this) Being ready and prepared when Christ comes is. Some are ready, some are not.

My point is, a parable doesn't have to be true, as long as it is delivering a truth that is true.

Sure, but no parable has any lies or is based on any false beliefs because that would spread those falsehoods. That one is about the dead being concious and the wicked punished and the righteous rewarded.

 

[3 Resurrections]

"God got rid of" his Two anointed ones of Zeck ch. 4??

After Christ became anointed as our "Great High Priest" according to the deathless order of Melchizedek, Hebrews 7:12 tells us that the law was changed. "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." The former glory of the old Levitical high priesthood was made obsolete at Christ's resurrection-day ascension in AD 33. Yet the majority of the first-century Jews rejected Jesus as being their Messiah and continued to place their faith in the old physical temple and the old Levitical high priesthood. This made all these former Old Covenant things an idol by comparison with Christ who was "the surety of a better covenant".

God planned to make a very obvious demonstration of getting rid of this idolatry compared to His Son's superior high priesthood which presided over a spiritual temple made of "living stones." Both the physical temple and those who served it as high priests needed to be eliminated in a most obvious, dramatic fashion to convince the Jews that God had permanently set aside that formerly-approved institution . That is why God set up the exact timing for the two witnesses / the former anointed high priests Ananas and Joshua to be slain in Jerusalem in AD 67 / 68. There have been no high priests anointed to serve since then. Christ as our Great High Priest stands alone without any competition from the obsolete OC high priesthood.

The same thing had happened long ago to the brass serpent which Moses made for the Israelites to look upon and live if they were bitten. That brass serpent served its intended purpose at the time, and even provided the symbolism of Christ also being lifted up for His crucifixion. But when the children of Israel began to actually worship the brass serpent, it became an idol, and had to be destroyed by King Hezekiah. Same thing with the two witnesses / former high priests Ananas and Joshua having to be eliminated, because the children of Israel were idolizing that obsolete system.

No, all of Revelation has NOT been fulfilled.

So sorry that you don't agree with John's own statements in Revelation. John was instructed to write down everything which he had already seen (past events), and the things that were happening presently for him ("the things that are") and the things John's own first-century audience would soon experience ("the things that are about to come after these things" - Rev. 1:19). The ONLY exception to these events being "unsealed" was the prophecies in Rev. 10:4 which the seven thunders uttered. John was f rbidden to write those down, because their content was reserved for the distant future - they were NOT part of what was "about to come" for John's audience, so they didn't need to worry about what they contained.

For one, the Mark of the Beast has not yet been manifested,

Of course the mark giving homage to the Sea Beast has been manifested. It only lasted from 19 BC until AD 66. Christ did battle with that during His lifetime on earth when He drove the money-changers from the temple. The mark giving homge to the Roman phase of the Sea Beast was the Tyrian shekel requirement which the corrupt high priesthood demanded as the only currency allowed for sales and purchases of sacrificial items in the temple. It had abominable images and inscriptions which God had forbidden. And I can buy a cheap knockoff copy of the Tyrian shekel for about $25-30 bucks online, for demo purposes.

neither has WW3 taken place, whereby one third of men are slain/killed in ONE 24 hour day. Rev. 9:13-21.

A future WW3 has nothing to do with Revelation. You aren't reading the full story of the sixth trumpet judgment that begins in Revelation 9:13 and finishes in Rev. 11:14. That "one third of men" being slain was to take place in the city of Jerusalem itself - NOT the entire globe. The "one third of men" amounted to 7,000 men being slain in the city, in addition to the two witnesses. That's the sum total of what comprised the "one third of men" in Rev. 11:13. And that number actually was slain in the AD 67-68 Idumean attack on Jerusalem, accompanied by the nighttime earthquake. It's ancient history. You don't have to sweat this.