What is the purpose of Grace?

[The Gospel of Christ]

@JimKnox
@Jack

I am probably on ignore by @The Gospel of Christ so he doesn't see my posts such as the one on Matt 25 asking him if Matt 25 ALSO already happened since it is clearly connected to Matt 24. No answer.

Secondly in another thread I have asked to explain the below -

Matt 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

No answer also.

He needs to address these 2 issues else his teaching doesn't add up.

Those are fair questions. But neither verse makes “this generation” disappear.

Matthew 24:29–31 uses classic prophetic judgment language, darkened sun, falling stars, shaken heavens; the same kind of imagery Isaiah and Ezekiel use for the collapse of nations. So simply quoting those verses doesn't prove Jesus suddenly jumped 2,000 years into the future at all.

And yes, Matthew 25 follows Matthew 24. We can debate where the discourse broadens into final judgment.

But first answer the question you keep stepping around:

Where does Jesus say “this generation” means some other generation thousands of years later?

Not your system.
Not your chart.
Not your inference.

Book. Chapter. Verse.

 

[Lizbeth]

I think this clarification helps, because I agree with much of what you are describing when it comes to consecration. A believer should increasingly surrender every area of life to the Lord rather than holding parts of it back. That is certainly biblical.

But I still think we need to distinguish that ongoing growth from what 2 Peter 1:10-11 actually calls the “entrance.”

Peter is already writing to people who “have obtained like precious faith with us” ~2 Peter 1:1, and he says they have been made “partakers of the divine nature” ~2 Peter 1:4. He then tells these believers to diligently add virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, and charity to their faith.

Then comes verse 11: “For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.” ~2 Peter 1:11

I don't see anything there saying that this entrance is a deeper spiritual condition believers may enter during this present life. Peter calls it entrance into the “everlasting kingdom.” The growth and diligence are taking place now. The entrance into that everlasting kingdom is what lies ahead.

Think of a child being born into a family. The child does not become more and more part of the family as he grows. He is already in the family. But over time he matures, learns obedience, develops character, and grows into what he already is. That is much closer to the biblical picture of the Christian life. We are already “in Christ,” but we are still growing in grace and obedience.

Another illustration is entering a race. Once the runner has entered the race, he is in it. He still has to run, endure, and finish. His progress through the race is real, but he is not repeatedly entering the race at deeper levels. Scripture says, “let us run with patience the race that is set before us” ~Hebrews 12:1. Growth and perseverance happen after the entrance.

So yes, there is an ongoing process in the Christian life. We grow, yield, obey, repent, mature, and become increasingly fruitful. I am completely with you there.

Where I still have to draw the line is when that biblical process of sanctification is described as the Lord finally “taking full possession” of someone, or as presently entering something beyond what every believer already possesses in Christ. I still need to see Scripture actually say that before I can accept it.

I think of it that as the bible says, we ARE complete in Him, because our new man is complete in Him, having been "made in the image of He who created it".......but it is a question of how much of Christ and the new man are we actually manifesting? and how much are we still living through (manifesting) our old man? Where it says we must "lose" our life (psuche) for His sake in order to find it, it is talking about losing the life we live through our old man in order to "find" resurrection life by living through (manifesting) the new man and Christ in us.

I hope these may be helpful:

Act 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.


Heb 12:10-11
For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.


Rom 8:18-19
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.


Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


Gal 2:20
“I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

But I believe it is like Paul said...he was of the mind that he had not yet attained so long as he was alive and still running his race in this world and instructs others who are "perfect" to be of that same mind as he was (humility), of not counting themselves to be perfect and having already attained but continuing to run the race and reaching for what is still ahead:

Phl 3:7-16

But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

 

[ProDeo]

Those are fair questions. But neither verse makes “this generation” disappear.

Matthew 24:29–31 uses classic prophetic judgment language, darkened sun, falling stars, shaken heavens; the same kind of imagery Isaiah and Ezekiel use for the collapse of nations. So simply quoting those verses doesn't prove Jesus suddenly jumped 2,000 years into the future at all.

And yes, Matthew 25 follows Matthew 24. We can debate where the discourse broadens into final judgment.

My friend, this does not work that way, you can not push the doctrine that everything already happened in Matt 24 and 25 and then ignoring, willingly push aside, the 2 mentioned obstacles.

You are a well versed smart guy and I think you were aware of the 2 mentioned obstacles before you started this thread. And so I ask myself, why are you doing this? To discredit the Bible?

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

My friend, this does not work that way, you can not push the doctrine that everything already happened in Matt 24 and 25 and then ignoring, willingly push aside, the 2 mentioned obstacles.

You are a well versed smart guy and I think you were aware of the 2 mentioned obstacles before you started this thread. And so I ask myself, why are you doing this? To discredit the Bible?

No, thats not what I said at all.

I did not say everything in Matthew 24 and 25 already happened.

In the very post you quoted, I said:

“We can debate where the discourse broadens into final judgment.”

So please don’t manufacture a position for me and then accuse me of “pushing aside” objections to that manufactured position.

Matthew 24:29–31 is not being ignored either... I answered it: Jesus is using the same cosmic judgment language the prophets repeatedly used for historical judgments on nations.

And Matthew 25:31–46? I take that as final judgment.

None of that changes Jesus’ words:

“This generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”

Your problem remains exactly where it was:

Where does Jesus identify some other generation thousands of years later and tell us that's the generation He meant?

And asking whether Im trying to “discredit the Bible” doesn't answer that question. Quite the opposite I’m asking you to let Jesus’ own words control the doctrine instead of forcing His words to fit a doctrine.

Book. Chapter. Verse.


Also, if your interpretation requires Jesus to mean a generation He never named, living thousands of years later, then the burden is on you to show where He said that.

You don’t get to insert the missing generation yourself and then accuse me of discrediting Scripture for refusing to insert it with you.


BTW I answered you just now in Unorthodox where this discussion belongs. When Doctrine Corrects Christ

Apparently, discussing this subject outside Unorthodox can get entire threads deleted.

 

[Lizbeth]

No, thats not what I said at all.

I did not say everything in Matthew 24 and 25 already happened.

In the very post you quoted, I said:

“We can debate where the discourse broadens into final judgment.”

So please don’t manufacture a position for me and then accuse me of “pushing aside” objections to that manufactured position.

Matthew 24:29–31 is not being ignored either... I answered it: Jesus is using the same cosmic judgment language the prophets repeatedly used for historical judgments on nations.

And Matthew 25:31–46? I take that as final judgment.

None of that changes Jesus’ words:

“This generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”

Your problem remains exactly where it was:

Where does Jesus identify some other generation thousands of years later and tell us that's the generation He meant?

And asking whether Im trying to “discredit the Bible” doesn't answer that question. Quite the opposite I’m asking you to let Jesus’ own words control the doctrine instead of forcing His words to fit a doctrine.

Book. Chapter. Verse.


Also, if your interpretation requires Jesus to mean a generation He never named, living thousands of years later, then the burden is on you to show where He said that.

You don’t get to insert the missing generation yourself and then accuse me of discrediting Scripture for refusing to insert it with you.


BTW I answered you just now in Unorthodox where this discussion belongs. When Doctrine Corrects Christ

Apparently, discussing this subject outside Unorthodox can get entire threads deleted.

I believe Jesus was prophesying to the Jew first, then the Gentile. But this whole topic doesn't belong on this thread.

 

[Lizbeth]

Why do you limit God to what your tiny brain can assimilate?

Bitter root that defiles. I hope you will seek the Lord to help you with it.

 

[ProDeo]

I believe Jesus was prophesying to the Jew first, then the Gentile. But this whole topic doesn't belong on this thread.

My fault, apologies.

 

[Lizbeth]

My fault, apologies.

No worries. It really wasn't fair of me to sneak in a comment then ask that nobody reply to it, lol. ;)

 

[bdavidc]

Oh my. There is a LOT you are not seeing. Why do you limit God to what your tiny brain can assimilate? Where does the assumption of privilege come from?


To whom MUCH is given MORE is required.

No. Insulting my intelligence does not make your doctrine biblical. Show the Scripture that teaches your system. That is the issue you keep avoiding.

You quote, “For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required” (Luke 12:48 KJV). Read the context. Jesus is speaking about servants being held accountable for what their master entrusted to them. The servant who “knew his lord's will” received greater punishment because he knowingly disobeyed (Luke 12:47-48). That passage teaches greater accountability according to what a person has been given and knows.

It does not say that God places believers into spiritual levels and then gives them progressively harder tests as they pass each level. You are inserting that system into the text.

And your statement about my “tiny brain” only exposes the weakness of your argument. Scripture does not tell us to accept teachings because God's ways are beyond our understanding. It tells us to test what is being taught by what God has actually revealed.

Paul said, “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

Isaiah said, “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” (Isaiah 8:20)

You are the one making the claim. The burden is on you to produce the Scripture.

If this system is biblical, then give the passage that teaches believers pass one spiritual level, are promoted to another, and are then subjected to increasingly difficult tests.

Not an inference. Not your spiritual philosophy. Not “there is a lot you are not seeing.”

Book, chapter, and verse.

Until you can provide that, you are teaching something Scripture does not teach and then rebuking others for refusing to believe it. That is backwards.

And since you are teaching others, James gives you a warning worth taking seriously:

“My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.” (James 3:1)

Yes, “unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required.” You would do well to apply that warning to yourself before using it to defend a doctrine you still have not demonstrated from Scripture.

 

[bdavidc]

I’m not sure how you are differentiating what I said compared to Jesus? Are you thinking test and faithfulness have different meaning in context?

Yes, they are talking about two separate things. Jesus said, "thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things" (Matthew 25:21). That passage is talking about increased responsibility due to faithfulness. It doesn't say, "I gave you a little test and you passed it so now I will give you a more difficult test."

God does test our faith according to scripture. James 1:3 talks about "the trying of your faith." However faithfulness and testing are two different concepts. Faithfulness can be shown through testing but Matthew 25:21 is not describing a system where God puts you through harder tests each time you pass. That is the difference.

 

[bdavidc]

I think of it that as the bible says, we ARE complete in Him, because our new man is complete in Him, having been "made in the image of He who created it".......but it is a question of how much of Christ and the new man are we actually manifesting? and how much are we still living through (manifesting) our old man? Where it says we must "lose" our life (psuche) for His sake in order to find it, it is talking about losing the life we live through our old man in order to "find" resurrection life by living through (manifesting) the new man and Christ in us.

I hope these may be helpful:

Act 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.


Heb 12:10-11
For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.


Rom 8:18-19
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.


Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


Gal 2:20
“I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

But I believe it is like Paul said...he was of the mind that he had not yet attained so long as he was alive and still running his race in this world and instructs others who are "perfect" to be of that same mind as he was (humility), of not counting themselves to be perfect and having already attained but continuing to run the race and reaching for what is still ahead:

Phl 3:7-16

But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

I agree with you on the need for ongoing growth and putting off the old man, but I still think some of these verses are being made to say more than they actually say.

Acts 14:22 says we must “through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.” That does not describe entering deeper spiritual levels during this life. Romans 8 makes the timing even clearer, because “the manifestation of the sons of God” is tied to the future glory that “shall be revealed in us” (Romans 8:18-19). Philippians 3 is also pointing forward. Paul says he had not yet attained “the resurrection of the dead” and was pressing toward it. That is not a present mystical entrance into resurrection life.

Hebrews 12 and Ephesians 4 absolutely teach growth, discipline, holiness, maturity, and becoming more Christlike. I have no disagreement there. But growth in Christ is not the same thing as repeatedly entering the kingdom or reaching some spiritual condition beyond what every believer already possesses in Christ.

I also would be careful with making “lose his life” mean losing the life of the old man. Jesus said, “whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it” (Matthew 16:25). The word psuche means life or soul in that context. The verse does not say psuche means the old man.

So I still see the same distinction. Scripture clearly teaches sanctification and increasing maturity. What I do not see is Scripture calling that process a deeper present-day “entrance” into the kingdom.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

None is righteous, no, not one....Romans 3:10

Hi Gh, The first eight chapters of Romans is one teaching on the Law of God. From Adam to Moses; from Moses to Pentecost, the Old Covenant - the ministry of death, and from Pentecost to the Second Coming, the New Covenant of the Spirit - the ministry of the Spirit.

We are all born sinners because of Adam's sin. That is the meaning of Romans 3:10. It certainly does not mean that a born again of the Spirit Christian is still a slave to sin. I hope you know that. In fact, as far as the commandments of God, 1 John 3:9 says, " Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." This is because "Jesus was manifest to TAKE AWAY our sin, and in Him is no sin." Jesus does not leave behind a sin nature to sin all over again. No! We are clean, John 15:3. The sin nature called "the old man" has been crucified by Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith. 1 John 3 is about Jesus as the Author of our first faith. @Episkopos, this is for you too on righteousness, below.

Besides Pentecost, show me an example of Baptized in Spirit in the Bible.

It was a few days later after Pentecost in chapter 4 that the 120 received the baptism of the Holy Spirit for ministry and power (the purpose of the second filling.) Acts 4:29-31 The apostles received the first dose of the Holy Spirit when Jesus blew Him into them before He ascended into heaven. The apostles received the second filling for ministry and power on the Day of Pentecost, as demonstrated by Peter who knew that this was the fulfillment of Joel 2 in a sermon.

Acts 4:29-31
29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.” 31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.

No one is righteous that sins not. The righteous sin. This statement is not meant to negate literally HUNDREDS of verses to the contrary. It is meant to balance the status of the righteous with holiness. No one is so righteous as the holy.

Yes, you are right. See the first post above. 1 John 3 above is when Jesus makes one sinless of lawlessness, not immature fruit of the Spirit. He takes away lawlessness in one swell swoop. No more desire to commit a sin against any of God's commands.

Holiness is when we come to the stage in our walk where we "never stumble." Unlike the one swell swoop for righteousness, holiness takes many years and is a process shown in 2 Peter 1:5-7. Read 2-11 for the complete text. This is when Jesus as the Finisher of our second faith, matures each of the fruit of the Spirit.

 

[Grailhunter]

It was a few days later after Pentecost in chapter 4 that the 120 received the baptism of the Holy Spirit for ministry and power (the purpose of the second filling.) Acts 4:29-31 The apostles received the first dose of the Holy Spirit when Jesus blew Him into them before He ascended into heaven. The apostles received the second filling for ministry and power on the Day of Pentecost, as demonstrated by Peter who knew that this was the fulfillment of Joel 2 in a sermon.

Acts 4:29-31
29 Now, Lord, look on their threats, and grant to Your servants that with all boldness they may speak Your word, 30 by stretching out Your hand to heal, and that signs and wonders may be done through the name of Your holy Servant Jesus.” 31 And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.

No, filled with the Holy Spirit is not the same as baptized with the spirit; Those people would still need to be water baptized.

 

[Grailhunter]

Hi Gh, The first eight chapters of Romans is one teaching on the Law of God. From Adam to Moses; from Moses to Pentecost, the Old Covenant - the ministry of death, and from Pentecost to the Second Coming, the New Covenant of the Spirit - the ministry of the Spirit.

We are all born sinners because of Adam's sin. That is the meaning of Romans 3:10. It certainly does not mean that a born again of the Spirit Christian is still a slave to sin. I hope you know that. In fact, as far as the commandments of God, 1 John 3:9 says, " Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." This is because "Jesus was manifest to TAKE AWAY our sin, and in Him is no sin." Jesus does not leave behind a sin nature to sin all over again. No! We are clean, John 15:3. The sin nature called "the old man" has been crucified by Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith. 1 John 3 is about Jesus as the Author of our first faith. @Episkopos, this is for you too on righteousness, below.

Hopefully you are not proposing OSAS?

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, you are right. See the first post above. 1 John 3 above is when Jesus makes one sinless of lawlessness, not immature fruit of the Spirit. He takes away lawlessness in one swell swoop. No more desire to commit a sin against any of God's commands.

Holiness is when we come to the stage in our walk where we "never stumble." Unlike the one swell swoop for righteousness, holiness takes many years and is a process shown in 2 Peter 1:5-7. Read 2-11 for the complete text. This is when Jesus as the Finisher of our second faith, matures each of the fruit of the Spirit.

It's one "fell" swoop. But you have it backward. Holiness is not by attainment...but by an instantaneous gift of grace. What takes time is learning righteousness and God's ways with others as well as ourselves.

We enter into holiness as we enter into Christ to be PARTAKERS of HIS holiness and righteousness...by the power of God called grace. This is a gift. No one attains holiness. It's never our holiness. I wish people would pay more attention to what they read and what I write that brings clarity to the errors. But let people remain ignorant if they wish ....it's their right, I suppose.

What we are exhorted very strongly to do is to LEARN righteousness...to add to the gift of grace something that SUPPORTS it in this life. We will be judged by OUR contribution not God's.

 

[Lizbeth]

I agree with you on the need for ongoing growth and putting off the old man, but I still think some of these verses are being made to say more than they actually say.

Acts 14:22 says we must “through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.” That does not describe entering deeper spiritual levels during this life. Romans 8 makes the timing even clearer, because “the manifestation of the sons of God” is tied to the future glory that “shall be revealed in us” (Romans 8:18-19). Philippians 3 is also pointing forward. Paul says he had not yet attained “the resurrection of the dead” and was pressing toward it. That is not a present mystical entrance into resurrection life.

Hebrews 12 and Ephesians 4 absolutely teach growth, discipline, holiness, maturity, and becoming more Christlike. I have no disagreement there. But growth in Christ is not the same thing as repeatedly entering the kingdom or reaching some spiritual condition beyond what every believer already possesses in Christ.

I also would be careful with making “lose his life” mean losing the life of the old man. Jesus said, “whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it” (Matthew 16:25). The word psuche means life or soul in that context. The verse does not say psuche means the old man.

So I still see the same distinction. Scripture clearly teaches sanctification and increasing maturity. What I do not see is Scripture calling that process a deeper present-day “entrance” into the kingdom.

Well, we are told to seek first the righteousness of God and His kingdom.........even though we have been made righteous and have been translated into the kingdom. We are told to enter His rest, even though we who have believed have entered His rest.

When one is walking in the Spirit (walking in the kingdom as it were), the old man is at rest, inert, and one is manifesting sonship....manifesting Christ, the Son of God, His nature, the nature of the new man. As we are told to put on Christ and put on the new man. And sons of God are angels.....Jesus said we shall be like the angels......and what He said to Nicodemus about "so is everyone who is born of the Spirit".....remember Philip being translated from one place to another........and remember the angels in the book of Revelation, how they said they are brethren..? There is more that is attainable for the people of God in this life than most realize. Not that I believe these things should be imposed on anyone, but just that we have been limiting too much what the Lord can do with us in this life, for His glory. We've been putting a lot of things on hold for the afterlife that don't have to be just for the afterlife. We may "taste the powers of the world to come" in this life.

(And just to say, I don't like the term mystical, to me that has associations with pagan and new age and occult practices......which often counterfeit true things of God.)

 

[Lizbeth]

It's one "fell" swoop. But you have it backward. Holiness is not by attainment...but by an instantaneous gift of grace. What takes time is learning righteousness and God's ways with others as well as ourselves.

We enter into holiness as we enter into Christ to be PARTAKERS of HIS holiness and righteousness...by the power of God called grace. This is a gift. No one attains holiness. It's never our holiness. I wish people would pay more attention to what they read and what I write that brings clarity to the errors. But let people remain ignorant if they wish ....it's their right, I suppose.

What we are exhorted very strongly to do is to LEARN righteousness...to add to the gift of grace something that SUPPORTS it in this life. We will be judged by OUR contribution not God's.

It is not "our" righteousness either, that we are learning...we are learning to submit to the righteousness of God (Christ IN us). What do any of us have that we didn't RECEIVE (from Him)? The flesh profits nothing.

 

[Episkopos]

Well, we are told to seek first the righteousness of God and His kingdom.........even though we have been made righteous and have been translated into the kingdom. We are told to enter His rest, even though we who have believed have entered His rest.

This is utter confusion. God is not going to call us to do something that is already done. This way of twisting the bible leads to people sitting on their hands and claiming they are rich when indeed they are poor wretched naked and blind. Maybe Jesus didn't get the memo that the Laodiceans (the modern church) was actually testifying to what they really already had???

The race is not won at the first step. Run to win.

 

[MostlyConfused]

This is utter confusion. God is not going to call us to do something that is already done. This way of twisting the bible leads to people sitting on their hands and claiming they are rich when indeed they are poor wretched naked and blind. Maybe Jesus didn't get the memo that the Laodiceans (the modern church) was actually testifying to what they really already had???

The race is not won at the first step. Run to win.

Presumptuous sins, that David spoke of.

 

[Lizbeth]

This is utter confusion. God is not going to call us to do something that is already done. This way of twisting the bible leads to people sitting on their hands and claiming they are rich when indeed they are poor wretched naked and blind. Maybe Jesus didn't get the memo that the Laodiceans (the modern church) was actually testifying to what they really already had???

The race is not won at the first step. Run to win.

All things HAVE been put under the feet of Jesus, but we do not yet SEE (necessarily) all things put under His feet. We have been made a new man but are not necessarily yet walking in or manifesting him consistently.