It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial
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I'm not quite sure why you got your panties in a bunch....my first response to you when you said rapture wasn't in the bible was...."yes it is. Learn the meaning of caught up and the languages it has been translated into."
Taken
Well-Known Member
You DO NOT LISTEN…
@CrossCrow… Expressly Said…
“after the Rapture”…
So why Are you ASKING “Where is the Rapture IN Revelations”?
God Established… HIS “ORDER”; HIS “WAY”… for HIS Word, HIS Understanding to be Given men.
You Demanding… men to Willy, nilly show to you Gods Word, according to “your Order and your Way”… is Carnal nonsense.
You Demanding… men Prove to you Gods Understanding … is a Fail.
Gods ORDER IS:
He provides His “Knowledge” To men that SEEK His Knowledge….
FROM His WRITTEN WORD.
Gods WAY IS:
He provides His “SPIRITUAL Understanding”
OF His Word…
TO men, WHO HAVE sought His Word, Trusts to Believe His Word, AND THUS…
ARE THEY… Prepared TO:
Spiritually RECEIVE FROM HIM…
The “Spiritual Understandings OF His Words”.
You are of the Crowd of men…
who WANT, who DEMAND….
Other men TO provide YOU / THEM
* With Gods Word
* With Understanding of Gods Word
And YOU go “Further”…
* Demanding What You Want BE in IN some Random Book you choose.
* And Repeatedly … Not only Rejection of Gods Word, Gods Understanding…
* But Badger the men who can Not, Hear, Read, Study, Learn, Trust, Understand
FOR You…OR GIVE TO You…
That Which Is Gods To Give to Whom He Pleases.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Your snide remark is noted.
You said, The word Rapture was in Scripture…it Is Not.
You told me to go Learn What Words meant…
After I told you I already Knew the meaning.
I provided you with a Way, to verify, I already Knew what the Words meant, in numerous Posts over a course of years.
And instead of correcting YOUR error, and Telling me to Do, what I proved I already Did…
You come back with a snide remark…To me…in some wonderment… of WHY I corrected your error, and Why I proved I was fully aware of the word meanings.
Oh, yes, I see, oh right Previously discussed, pardon me…
“would have been, an appropriate Response”.
Not your snide remark.
What happens to God's people when Jesus appears? Where do we find that in Revelation?
Not true. I have asked you to show your doctrine anywhere in God's Book, but you cannot. I am not showing: you have no biblical support for Pretrib. You Pretribbers are reinforcing that by your ducking around of the simple questions. LOL.
- Where is the rapture for believers in Scripture, followed by a trib period?
- Where is the rapture for believers in Revelation, followed by a trib period?
You did. LOL.
"After Christ the Lord Jesus descends to the clouds and Has Redeemed His Church ..
ie. Called His Church up to Him… ie. The Rapture.
Then…After the 7 seals are Opened, in Heaven, by the Lamb of God."
We all accept there is a catching away here. But, where in 1 Thessalonians 4 does it show a rapture of the church followed by a tribulation period followed by a 3rd coming? Where does it even show a rapture of the church followed by a tribulation period?
I do not typically use the word because it brings confusion today. It identifies a Christian with a certain type of doctrine, that I do not hold. Obviously, I am not Pretrib. I prefer biblical terms.
The bible doesn't outright say...."the rapture will be followed by a 7 year tribulation. The bible also doesn't say outright there is a trinity consisting of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But, if you connect the dots a christian can understand the basic principles of the Godhead.
When the dots surround the rapture of the church are connected the pre-trib rapture becomes obvious.
For example I have shown you the bible presents Jesus as returning on a white horse in Rev 19 and another return where Jesus isn't riding a white horse. I've even presented you with depictions of the event. No white horse at the rapture while defections show a white horse at the Rev 19 return. That's one dot.
I've presented you with a social economic picture mentioned by Christ Jesus that speaks of His return and describes it like the days of Noah and not......which don't align with the social economic days of the end of the tribulation. Another dot to connect.
You have been presented several verses that show Christians....the bride of Christ... are not destined for wrath or the trials of the 7 year tribulation. Another dot to connect.
You have been shown the 7 year tribulation is a judgement for the people of the earth...and should understand Jesus already paid the price for that Judgement concerning Christians on the cross 2,000 years ago.....another dot to connect.
Another dot to connect would be the many mansions (dwelling places) in heaven that Jesus is currently building and the promise of His return to take us there. This fits in with the Jewish engagement and wedding of the times of Christ.
I have shown you another dot with the 2 Thes 2 mention of the gathering and removal of the restrainer and departure that happens prior to the 7 year tribulation. One more dot to connect.
You have been shown that the Church isn't mentioned by name after after chapter 4 of Revelations (19 times prior to chapter 5) and then not again to chapter 20. ....this is another dot.
There's more dots to connect that are buried deeper in scripture that I won't mention.
Dot + dot + dot + dot + dot + dot + dot = a pre-trib rapture. All you need to do is connect them.
Where are your dots to connect that show a single return of Jesus at the end of the tribulation?
Taken
Well-Known Member
Much happens …
Before the Trib Begins…
And When the Trib Begins…
When the Trib Begins…On Earth…
the Following …
In brief…
To Gods People,
To Believers IN God,
To Un Confessed Believers IN God,
To Un Confessed Believers IN Christ Jesus,
To Un- Believers,
…
Jesus IS NOT ON Earth.
The Lamb of God is In Heaven Opening The Seals 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7…
Each opened… Sends Tribulations Upon the Earth and its inhabitants…
Because of the Wrath of the Lamb, being Rejected.
And They Upon the Face of the Earth…
( as mentioned)…Suffer His Wrath and THOSE Tribulations of the 7 Seals…
and many unto Their Bodily Death.
Some, Gods People, Not Gods People…
Begin…
Believing, Heartfully Believing, Heartfully Confessing Belief…
And Some Do Not…
Some bodily Dying, Some Not.
Bodily Dying IN Heartful Belief…
God Saves their souls.
Next Round of increased Tribulations…
The 7 Trumps…
Gods Sending His Witness For His People…AND
Wrath of the Devil for men Rejecting him.
Still Jesus is Not on Earth.
After the Seventh Trump…
After the Woes…
After The Devils Wrath…
After the Trumps Tribulations…
Then does The Lord Christ Jesus (IN the Appearance as the SON of Man) human men CAN See)…Descend From THE Clouds …
* With his Spirit Angels, human man can not See,
* With Christs spiritual Church, human men can not see…
*And He Sits ON a White Cloud ALL men Can See…
And with His Angels, Begins gathering Men ON the Earth With Satan’s Mark…and Sending them to the Great Wine press of God…
Where ON Earth, Gods Wrath is on Display, for Him being Rejected, and His Great Tribulations of His , Seven Vials, For the living human men With Satan’s Mark.
Jesus Is Still Not ON Earth.
Then Does Appear… the KING of kings, with His Power and Authority to Send into Battle His Angels, to Overcome Satan and his Angels …AND SEND them to Hell.
Then Does … the KING of kings, Christ the Lord Jesus RETURN “TO EARTH”…
With His Angels…
With His Church
and
Claim, His Inheritance …
* Abrahams Promised Bordered Land;
* king Davids everlasting Throne;
And RULE OVER the Entire World…
From HIS Kingdom
According to His Authority OF KING Over all kings and all nations people.
Of “Alive mortal “Believing” men, who were Not Killed during the Tribulations…
And such Living mortal men…live, marry, reproduce, migrate, establish towns, die, new generation continues…building towns, cities, nations, appointing kings over their nations…
Continuing for 1,000 years…
And Much More Happens… Regarding… the ending of the Thousand Years;
of Satan,
of Satan’s Angels,
of mortal men on Earth,
of men on earth who died during the 1,000 yrs
of the Changes that Apply to Heaven and Earth.
Point is…
There are Numerous Angels and Numerous humans that lived and died…
With Each Having FREEWILL to Believe as THEY Individually chose During their Life -Time…
And Each… Angel or Human’s Beliefs… Shall Over their presence ON Earth…be Revealed TO God, and Dealt With According to Gods ORDER and WAY.
Every Angel and Every man, Can Learn, Accept, Believe, Reject, What God has Established is Offered to Them…to Them…and Accept or Reject Gods Offering…
And Further Learn THEIR OWN ETERNAL Fate/ Consequence For Accepting OR Rejecting Gods Offering.
Every Individual Angel and Man…Each Decides their own Belief, and can learn of their Own Fate / Consequence…For their Belief…or Not…
You stand on the side-lines …Never declaring your Beliefs… Accusing Others… Belittling Them, Their standing, Demanding they prove to YOUR satisfaction, of a one liner, of How and Why and Proof… THEY Have Arrived in a Secure Relationship With The Lord God, And Trust Their Consequence / Fate is Secure IN the Lord God.
Why are you spending your time… rallying Against Others…
When, your Own Standing is on Shaky ground?
Why Do expect ANY man in Secure Standing IN Christ the Lord God…
TO entreat the Whims of a man on Shaky Ground …
When he clearly Rejects their Secured Standing, makes snarky Remarks regarding their Standing,
AND then Demands, they Show you in Particular Books, Passages… what is NOT in those Books / Passages.
It is Like Calling someone a Liar, and You Demanding they Prove to YOUR satisfaction they are Not Lying.
You are Confused… No one in Secured Standing “IN” Christ the Lord God…
For one Second, think your “self-Appointed Accusing, Charging, Judging Position”… has one ounce of bearing on them.
Exercise your own Liberty to Hear, read, learn, choose your Standing, and Not worry about an Others Secured Standing.
I will respond later in more detail. I believe these are all moot arguments. They are faced on misconceptions. When I have called them out you avoid them and name call.
Revelation is full of unique and obscure symbolism that is found nowhere else in the Bible. That is because apocalyptic language is highly figurative and it depicts spiritual realities in the past present or future. You claim to have 22 references to a third coming of Jesus, yet you have not been able to show us one that mentions a white horse. That totally the gates your whole argument. That is pretty common in Pretrib. The gallows they build to hang Postrib on is what they normally end up hanging on.
Every Pretrib argument is self-defeating. Just like the non-mention of the word "Church" in Revelation you employ. You use that as evidence that the "Church" is not present during Revelation 4 to 19. This is self-defeating.
Using your reasoning, where is a record of the "Church" being raptured? It is not mentioned in Revelation 4. It must not be raptured according to your reasoning. You claim the "Church" is in heaven during your invented 7-year tribulation. There are multiple references to heaven between Revelation 4 and Revelation 19, but, there is no mention of the "Church." So, according to your reasoning it is on earth and it is not in heaven. Where is it? Please answer. There is no mention of the "Church" in Revelation 19 - your third coming (the white Horse coming that you are obsessed with). According to your reasoning, that is proof that the "Church" is not part of that event.
Your whole reasoning is built upon sand. That is why it cannot stand scrutiny.
1+1+1+1+1 = 5 not 11111.
In Revelation 3:11-12, Christ promises His people, while also speaking of His glorious all-consummating Second Advent, “Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”
This second coming passage confirms our notion. The heavenly city comes down from heaven with Christ when He returns.
Note that the exact detail described as occurring at the second coming – namely:
The “new Jerusalem” appears.
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven.”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven … from God.”
This reading informs us that this “place,” which Christ spoke of has a name; being described as the New Jerusalem and that it “cometh down out of heaven” at His appearing. This truth should help those who struggle with the meaning and timing of Revelation 20, because Revelation 21:1-2 (which all commentators agree) appears immediately after the happenings of Revelation 20. Therefore, it places its appearing, which we have already established coincides with the second coming of the Lord, at the end of the millennium thus revealing a postmillennial appearing of Christ. Christ connects the appearance of the New Jerusalem at His coming, declaring, “Behold, I come quickly.” It is at this all-consummating event that the New Jerusalem comes “down out of heaven from my God.”
Further evidence that the prepared New Jerusalem is coming down to the new earth is found in Revelation 21:1-4. It declares, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”
The New Jerusalem does not stay in heaven. At the end of the millennium it descends to the new earth. We should not overlook: the detail described elsewhere in Scripture as occurring at the second coming of the Lord carefully matches that which takes place at the end of the millennium (definitely not the beginning). It is the “holy city, new Jerusalem” that is figuratively “prepared as a bride adorned for her husband” and which corresponds with the Lord’s teaching in John 14. This city is the only “prepared place” alluded to in the whole of the New Testament. This city, which appears with Christ at His coming, is undoubtedly a heavenly “place” and is the single focus of every true saint of God – the place of eternal peace and rest from sin, the effects of sin (including death), and all sinners forever.
You have cobbled together some historical facts, conflated distinct doctrines, and made logical leaps that are overstated and unproven.
The fact is, Ribera never taught the pre-trib rapture. He may have believed in a form of Catholic futurism, but the trib-rapture is the culmination of several distinct doctrines and theological ideas, such as dispensationalism, not simply "futurism."
Lacunza didn’t invent two future comings. There were other Christians who discussed it before him, such as Morgan Edwards. Edwards, a Baptist pastor, taught a two-phase coming in 1744, decades before Lacunza completed his work, and it was later published in 1788.
There are distinct differences too. Lacunza taught a premillennial Second Coming, but his eschatological timing isn’t the same as dispensational pre-trib. He also didn’t believe the antichrist would be a literal individual person. So, you are connecting related doctrines and treating them as though they are all the same doctrine; they’re not.
No. There is no evidence of such a straightforward chain of transmission that demonstrates Ribera invented futurism, Lacunza inherited it and invented pre-tribulationism, Irving transmitted it to Darby, and Darby simply adopted it. Edward Irving did translate Lacunza’s work, but that doesn’t prove anything.
Irving and Darby parted ways due to theological differences and disagreements over doctrine, and Darby maintained that he arrived at his doctrine through his own study of Scripture. Ultimately, you don’t either Ribera or Lacunza to arrive at the pre-trib rapture. There were elements of the pre-trib doctrine that existed long before any of them were born.
The fact is, Ribera never taught the pre-trib rapture. He may have believed in a form of Catholic futurism, but the trib-rapture is the culmination of several distinct doctrines and theological ideas, such as dispensationalism, not simply "futurism."
Lacunza didn’t invent two future comings. There were other Christians who discussed it before him, such as Morgan Edwards. Edwards, a Baptist pastor, taught a two-phase coming in 1744, decades before Lacunza completed his work, and it was later published in 1788.
There are distinct differences too. Lacunza taught a premillennial Second Coming, but his eschatological timing isn’t the same as dispensational pre-trib. He also didn’t believe the antichrist would be a literal individual person. So, you are connecting related doctrines and treating them as though they are all the same doctrine; they’re not.
No. There is no evidence of such a straightforward chain of transmission that demonstrates Ribera invented futurism, Lacunza inherited it and invented pre-tribulationism, Irving transmitted it to Darby, and Darby simply adopted it. Edward Irving did translate Lacunza’s work, but that doesn’t prove anything.
Irving and Darby parted ways due to theological differences and disagreements over doctrine, and Darby maintained that he arrived at his doctrine through his own study of Scripture. Ultimately, you don’t either Ribera or Lacunza to arrive at the pre-trib rapture. There were elements of the pre-trib doctrine that existed long before any of them were born.
