Connecting the dots = a pre-tribulation rapture.

[David in NJ]

Please take your anti-christ message elsewhere.

The LORD JESUS CHRIST will indeed rebuke your lying against His words and against the Body of Christ who love His words.

The lying doctrine of pre-trib is from the spirit of anti-chist as it opposes CHRIST's Prophecy = Matthew chapter 24

The lying doctrine of pre-trib is from the spirit of anti-chist as it opposes CHRIST's Apostles = 1st & 2nd Thessalonians

The LORD JESUS CHRIST Says:
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book:
If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

[ewq1938]

I disagree. Most pre-tribbers think the apostasy is when the christians depart from the faith....despite the FACT "depart from the faith " isn't part of 2 Thes 2:3. Those words aren't there but assumed they are. They succumb to the "mandela effect". You do it.

No, apostasia means to morally depart or defect from something.

The way I see it the changing of the world apostate to revolt was a theological bias based reason ...rather than a literal direct translation of "stand away from".
The word "revolt" influenced the King James Version and over time became the incorrect standard or perception of the word "apostate" seen in modern bibles.

No, apostate and apostasy are negative things and nothing has been changed. Paul was speaking of a time that Christians would commit apostasy related to the man of sin and the tribulation. The Greek meaning of the word he used cannot be validly changed despite Pretrib trying. The doctrine desperately needs a physical departure to happen at the time Paul said a moral departure would happen. Now we see how easily the apostasy will happen with so much of the Church wanting it to be something wonderful.

 

[PinSeeker]

The LORD JESUS CHRIST will indeed rebuke your lying against His words and against the Body of Christ who love His words.

The lying doctrine of pre-trib is from the spirit of anti-chist as it opposes CHRIST's Prophecy = Matthew chapter 24

The lying doctrine of pre-trib is from the spirit of anti-chist as it opposes CHRIST's Apostles = 1st & 2nd Thessalonians

Come on, man. He is (and they are) not lying, he is (and they are) just wrong. And... it's okay.

Grace and peace to you, David.

 

[David in NJ]

Come on, man. He is (and they are) not lying, he is (and they are) just wrong. And... it's okay.

Grace and peace to you, David.

We are not talking about generalizations here and there.
Neither are we talking about trying to understand the words of the LORD.

A person who DIRECTLY opposes the words of GOD are not seeking Truth but are sowing seeds of discord.
You say: "It's OK"
Do you really believe GOD thinks it is "OK"???

GOD made this CRYSTAL CLEAR in Genesis and Proverbs 30:5-6 and in the Gospel

When they are shown their error and they falsely accuse the brethren = they get the Truth from God's Word.

Do you think that the LORD was making an empty threat in Revelation 22:18-19?

The fear of the LORD is the BEGINNING of WISDOM.

Do you think they will escape judgement when they preach against the Gospel, against the Apostles and against Revelation?

Where & when did God Say: "It is OK to purposely mishandle His words?

 

[ScottA]

My view is the rapture EVENT...is when the dead in Christ, that is every believer in Christ through out history who has died will be raised from the grave like Jesus was raised form grave will ascend into the "clouds" and meet Jesus in the air. Their resurrected now glorified bodies will then be joined with their spirit that went to heaven when they died.
Just after that moment of resurrection those believers in Christ who have not died...still living....will then be taken up into the air....receive glorified bodies...then all the dead in Christ and all those still alive in Christ will return to heaven with Jesus.

To mock people for not believing what you believe..saying they are in the kiddie pool...as if you, you, you corner the market on "rapture" theology is extremely insulting and your ad-homimen remark is uncalled for.

The "mock" is not mocking, but a long overdue "Grow up! Read the scriptures fully--what was to happen, what was laid at our feet, was wake up, rise let us be going, press on, mature, by the renewing of your mind--and finish the race. So, yeah, making a Mary had a little lamb doctrine out of the baby-talk of first parental words from Christ, is cause for a wake up call.

And you described that Mary had a little lamb doctrine perfectly. Unfortunately, for it to actually be true, God would have to adjust to the terms and times of this world, instead of us adjusting to His timeless ways; the rapture would be a zombie apocalypse of dead people walking around like it was Halloween, instead of the parable that the dead rising is supposed to be; heaven would actually be clouds in the earth's atmosphere, instead of spiritually omnipresent; the air would actually be "water" and the divide between heaven and earth would have to be crossed with a flying submarine, instead of it all occurring "within you"; God would have to break His own rule of not allowing flesh and blood to inherit the kingdom of Heaven and apologize for saying that the flesh returns to the dust and only the spirit returns to Him; Jesus would have to apologize for saying "today" (you will be with me in Paradise) is when the spirit body leaves the flesh body--and sorry for the delay and the Purgatory experience that wasn't really suppose to happen--My bad!; those who thought they were born again and had the Holy Spirit "within" them would learn that No, sorry for wasting your time, but you will now be receiving Him and Jesus up in the sky, and No, no flesh gets to go--shake it off--here put this robe on, time to go...instead of reigning with Christ from the time they actually received the Holy Spirit and Christ, until the passing of their flesh bodies, at which time the rapture becomes most apparent with the transition of time unto eternity, and awakening to what “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him”--"in the twinkling of an eye."

Now--remove those parts of the above paragraph that you have believed--and you'll have it.

 

[ScottA]

I agree. The dead in christ are resurrected then raptured by Jesus....then...those that are alive are raptured...and BOTH return to heaven with Jesus.

It would appear that you don't know what you have just said.

That would spiritually translate something like this: "The dead in Christ are raise up then raised of by Jesus...then...those that are alive are raised up...and BOTH return to heaven with Jesus." Which makes three events out of one.

What you are not accounting for is timeless nature of God. The rapture is His event, His way. Meaning, one event including all...with the explanation that "we who are alive and remain" "do not precede the dead" because they died first. However, because we received the Holy Spirit first--which is the act of salvation--we are part of "the first resurrection"...so to speak. But don't let the timing confuse you (any longer), those time explanations were simply baby-talk in world-speak...because that is where we are and might only relate to, leaving the full parable language and reality time to sink in. That is the process--we're suppose to be coming around to thinking like our Father instead of the world.

 

[PinSeeker]

We are not talking about generalizations here and there.
Neither are we talking about trying to understand the words of the LORD.

A person who DIRECTLY opposes the words of GOD are not seeking Truth but are sowing seeds of discord.
You say: "It's OK"
Do you really believe GOD thinks it is "OK"???

GOD made this CRYSTAL CLEAR in Genesis and Proverbs 30:5-6 and in the Gospel

When they are shown their error and they falsely accuse the brethren = they get the Truth from God's Word.

Do you think that the LORD was making an empty threat in Revelation 22:18-19?

The fear of the LORD is the BEGINNING of WISDOM.

Do you think they will escape judgement when they preach against the Gospel, against the Apostles and against Revelation?

Where & when did God Say: "It is OK to purposely mishandle His words?

The point is, he's not "purposely mishandling" God's words. To lie about something, David, one has to know that what he or she is saying is contrary to what is true and thus is false. Otherwise, he or she is merely mistaken... and not lying... which is the case with @CrowCross here.

@CrowCross may be saying something that directly opposes the words of God ~ which is a common occurrence on this board <smile> ... as is the "purposely mishandling" accusation, which is often stated as "reading or dealing with God's word dishonestly," or something like that ~ but he or she obviously doesn't think so... is not purposely making what he or she knows to be truth into an untruth, so is not "lying." He or she is just... mistaken.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

It would appear that you don't know what you have just said.

Well now that's a common occurrence on this board... <chuckles>

That would spiritually translate something like this: "The dead in Christ are raise up then raised of by Jesus...then...those that are alive are raised up...and BOTH return to heaven with Jesus." Which makes three events out of one.

Well, it could be construed as all one big event, and I think that's what he's doing. But just generally speaking, the whole pretrib, um, "schema"... conflates and obfuscates several things... really makes confusing something that is really not confusing at all, and unwittingly manufactures inconsistencies where there are none.

The rapture is His event,

There is no "rapture" in the sense dispensational folks understand it. Jesus's return is not a removal or a taking away to another place of any of those who are His. The only ones... leaving, or departing... will be those who are on the wrong side of the final judgment. And then heaven will be brought down to us, and all when then finally be made new. Which may sound funny but is an important clarification to make... God is "making all things new" (Revelation 21:5). He is not "making new things." <smile>

...one event including all...with the explanation that "we who are alive and remain" "do not precede the dead" because the died first. However, because we received the Holy Spirit first--which is the act of salvation--we are part of "the first resurrection"...so to speak.

Exactly right. And there you go... we who are born again of the Spirit have come to share in the "first resurrection," and that's still happening; people are being born again of the Spirit as we speak, and, in Paul's words in Ephesians 2, being "made alive together with Christ ~ by grace saved ~ and raised up with Him and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus..." and so coming to share in the first resurrection and reigning with Christ over the course of this "thousand years."

But don't let the timing confuse you (any longer), those time explanations were simply baby-talk in world-speak...because that is where we are and might only relate to, leaving the full parable language and reality time to sink in. That is the process--we're suppose to be coming around to thinking like our Father instead of the world.

Easy to say... <smile>

Grace and peace.

 

[David in NJ]

The point is, he's not "purposely mishandling" God's words. To lie about something, David, one has to know that what he or she is saying is contrary to what is true and thus is false. Otherwise, he or she is merely mistaken... and not lying... which is the case with @CrowCross here.

@CrowCross may be saying something that directly opposes the words of God ~ which is a common occurrence on this board <smile> ... as is the "purposely mishandling" accusation, which is often stated as "reading or dealing with God's word dishonestly," or something like that ~ but he or she obviously doesn't think so... is not purposely making what he or she knows to be truth into an untruth, so is not "lying." He or she is just... mistaken.

Grace and peace to you.

Every pre-tripper who strongly promotes the error of pre-trib as if it were Gospel is purposely mishandling God's words to PROMOTE their agenda.
Every religion does this = RCC & JW doctrines are other clear examples

To lie about something, David, one has to know that what he or she is saying is contrary to what is true and thus is false.

Eve had to make a choice between what God Said and what the Serpent said.
Notice = Eve did not have to attend Bible College to know the difference!

The Serpent directly twisted God's words = same as pre-trib rapture!
This is the choice of pre-trib and that choice is rooted in the deception of "respect of persons" also called "the fear of man".

JESUS directly & irrefutably Says: "I Come after the Tribulation" = There is no mistaking His Commandment & Prophecy.

Apostle Paul wrote the LORD's Commandment in 1 Thess 4:13-18 = 2nd Coming & Resurrection BEFORE rapture
Why then do pre-trippers REVERSE the Commandment of the LORD............because they want their agenda over God's

Every Truth from the Mouth of God is Found in CHRIST = from Genesis to Revelation

Every lie will oppose CHRIST in some way or measure.

This is the Truth the Apostle John warns us of when he wrote: "no lie is of the Truth"

These are child-like truths = specifically made simple for God's Sheep.

 

[CrowCross]

The "mock" is not mocking, but a long overdue "Grow up! Read the scriptures fully--what was to happen, what was laid at our feet, was wake up, rise let us be going, press on, mature, by the renewing of your mind--and finish the race. So, yeah, making a Mary had a little lamb doctrine out of the baby-talk of first parental words from Christ, is cause for a wake up call.

And you described that Mary had a little lamb doctrine perfectly. Unfortunately, for it to actually be true, God would have to adjust to the terms and times of this world, instead of us adjusting to His timeless ways; the rapture would be a zombie apocalypse of dead people walking around like it was Halloween, instead of the parable that the dead rising is supposed to be; heaven would actually be clouds in the earth's atmosphere, instead of spiritually omnipresent; the air would actually be "water" and the divide between heaven and earth would have to be crossed with a flying submarine, instead of it all occurring "within you"; God would have to break His own rule of not allowing flesh and blood to inherit the kingdom of Heaven and apologize for saying that the flesh returns to the dust and only the spirit returns to Him; Jesus would have to apologize for saying "today" (you will be with me in Paradise) is when the spirit body leaves the flesh body--and sorry for the delay and the Purgatory experience that wasn't really suppose to happen--My bad!; those who thought they were born again and had the Holy Spirit "within" them would learn that No, sorry for wasting your time, but you will now be receiving Him and Jesus up in the sky, and No, no flesh gets to go--shake it off--here put this robe on, time to go...instead of reigning with Christ from the time they actually received the Holy Spirit and Christ, until the passing of their flesh bodies, at which time the rapture becomes most apparent with the transition of time unto eternity, and awakening to what “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him”--"in the twinkling of an eye."

Now--remove those parts of the above paragraph that you have believed--and you'll have it.

Quite the ramble.

 

[CrowCross]

Every pre-tripper who strongly promotes the error of pre-trib as if it were Gospel is purposely mishandling God's words to PROMOTE their agenda.

LOL....Wow, you're really out there Davey.

 

[CrowCross]

Oh, I do see your... "connections"... and I've seen them all before... buuuuut-tuuuh.... <smile> I mean, it's the... well, gymnastics... that you and other pre-trib folks have to do to make them that's the problem... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

Nothing but unsupported claim you're hiding behind.

 

[PeterAndroz]

LOL....Wow, you're really out there Davey.

I have most FLAT EARTHERS on IGNORE.
If they claim the Bible teaches a FLAT EARTH then what else can't they get right ?

 

[ScottA]

Quite the ramble.

Yeah, 2,000 years worth!

 

[PeterAndroz]

They don't. But they do enter eternity [in rapture] together. Because, even though everyone leaves this world "but each one in his own order", eternity is eternity.

Me > If a Paul age saint cannot become UNsaved yet a TRIBUALTION saint can, how can they both exist in the same 'age' ?
You > "They don't." AGREED.
..
"""they do enter eternity [in rapture] together"""
I don't see TRIBULATION saints in the 1 Th4:17, 1 Cr 15:52 INSTANT, TWINKLE of an eye, no angels used 'rapture'
I see them in the longer process gathering by angels as taught by Matt

 

[David in NJ]

LOL....Wow, you're really out there Davey.

Correction = By the Grace of GOD, HE brought me WAY UP THERE and seated me in CHRIST

i want you and @PeterAndroz to know this = GOD is for us, when we submit to Christ and every word that HE has Spoken

The enemy has been planting error in the churches for 2,000 years now.

Only by the Filling of the HOLY SPIRIT can we discern Truth from error = 1 John 4:6
But we belong to God, and those who know God listen to us. If they do not belong to God, they do not listen to us.
That is how we know if someone has the Spirit of Truth or the spirit of deception.

Let your heart fully listen to Christ and His Apostles = Peter, Paul, John, Matthew, Mark as well as Luke, James, Jude

SHALOM and Good Night

 

[David in NJ]

Me > If a Paul age saint cannot become UNsaved yet a TRIBUALTION saint can, how can they both exist in the same 'age' ?
You > "They don't." AGREED.
..
"""they do enter eternity [in rapture] together"""
I don't see TRIBULATION saints in the 1 Th4:17, 1 Cr 15:52 INSTANT, TWINKLE of an eye, no angels used 'rapture'
I see them in the longer process gathering by angels as taught by Matt

Peter,
Rejoice in Truth = never run from it = embrace Truth and fall in love with Truth = CHRIST is TRUTH

The Apostle Paul included "Tribulation saints" in 1 Thessalonians and in 2 Thessalonians as well

Therefore, when we could no longer endure it, we thought it good to be left in Athens alone, 2and sent Timothy, our brother and minister of God, and our fellow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you and encourage you concerning your faith, 3that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this.
4For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.
5For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain.

But now that Timothy has come to us from you, and brought us good news of your faith and love, and that you always have good remembrance of us, greatly desiring to see us, as we also to see you—
7therefore, brethren, in all our affliction and distress we were comforted concerning you by your faith.
8For now we live, if you stand fast in the Lord.

9For what thanks can we render to God for you, for all the joy with which we rejoice for your sake before our God, 10night and day praying exceedingly that we may see your face and perfect what is lacking in your faith?

Now may our God and Father Himself, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way to you. 12And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love to one another and to all, just as we do to you,
13so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father
at the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

Always Tribulation BEFORE the Coming of CHRIST with the Saints from Heaven

 

[ScottA]

Me > If a Paul age saint cannot become UNsaved yet a TRIBUALTION saint can, how can they both exist in the same 'age' ?
You > "They don't." AGREED.
..
"""they do enter eternity [in rapture] together"""
I don't see TRIBULATION saints in the 1 Th4:17, 1 Cr 15:52 INSTANT, TWINKLE of an eye, no angels used 'rapture'
I see them in the longer process gathering by angels as taught by Matt

The difference is the difference in perspective, whether our perspective of times, or Gods eternal (timeless) perspective. For full understanding, our perspective has to reconcile with God's. The only way that is possible is both coming together when "but each one in his own order" passes from time to eternity. Which has occurred throughout all of history...each one in his own order.

So, yes, in Matthew it speaks of the angels gathering from the four winds and all the earth, of course--but it can only happen simultaneously if it is that twinkling of an eye between time and eternity. Which then is confirmed by Paul, saying "but"--"but each [one] (person) in his own order." By definition, that is how "each one" is defined.

Why is that important? Because it changes (proves wrong) what most people believe. That--by definition--is "strong delusion."

 

[CrowCross]

I have most FLAT EARTHERS on IGNORE.
If they claim the Bible teaches a FLAT EARTH then what else can't they get right ?

Flat earth is easy to dismiss...especially when you peel back the layers.
I must admit they do have some quality video's...but their science fall apart quickly.

 

[CrowCross]

Correction = By the Grace of GOD, HE brought me WAY UP THERE and seated me in CHRIST

i want you and @PeterAndroz to know this = GOD is for us, when we submit to Christ and every word that HE has Spoken

The enemy has been planting error in the churches for 2,000 years now.

Yes it has. The amil symbolism and post trib only rapture is two of them.

Only by the Filling of the HOLY SPIRIT can we discern Truth from error = 1 John 4:6
But we belong to God, and those who know God listen to us. If they do not belong to God, they do not listen to us.
That is how we know if someone has the Spirit of Truth or the spirit of deception.

Let your heart fully listen to Christ and His Apostles = Peter, Paul, John, Matthew, Mark as well as Luke, James, Jude

SHALOM and Good Night

Yes, I believe the Holy Spirit showed me the truth of and connected the dots of the pre-trib rapture.