Connecting the dots = a pre-tribulation rapture.

[marks]

What kind of response is this?

How many times have we been through this?

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Look at how he twisted that passage.
It says he SENDS TO GATHER saints IN HEAVEN.

THEN he comes later...AHEM, ....insert drum roll please....WITH THE SAINTS.

Plain crazy, that postrib rapture invented theory.

Where are the saints who have died - right now/today?

 

[marks]

Saved Israelites would give a different answer today.

In Christ is neither Greek nor Jew.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

Pretrib doctrine does not twist matt 24 as you have found it necessary to do.

Your deal is so busted.
You have invested in such folly.

Simple Fix = Post what think is twisted

 

[rebuilder 454]

I understand what you're saying and why you're saying it...based primarily on the location or chapter in Revelation the verse is presented.
Personally I see this as a description as relating to the physical return of Christ at the end of the tribulation.
I see it as corresponding with the battle surrounding Jerusalem and the destruction of those opposed to Christ Jesus described in Zechariah 14 and Revelation 19.

Rev 19 is after the wrath part.
Rev 14 is during the trib ( prewrath)

Rev 14 has a description that is not the rapture of the church, or the second coming on millions of horses.

 

[David in NJ]

In Christ is neither Greek nor Jew.

Much love!

Which of these, does the scripture you correctly quoted, pertain to:
a.) the flesh
b.) the spirit
c.) the flesh and the spirit

 

[CrowCross]

Every time you say pre-trib rapture

Every time you say 3 Comings of the LORD

Every time you say rapture BEFORE the 2nd Coming/Resurrection

LOL....sure you can disagree all you want....but you haven't demonstrated the accuracy of your misbeliefs.
All you have done is tried to speak out against the connected dots ALL THE WHILE NEVER CONNECTING YOUR DOTS.

Do that, or kindly go away.

 

[CrowCross]

Rev 19 is after the wrath part.
Rev 14 is during the trib ( prewrath)

Rev 14 has a description that is not the rapture of the church, or the second coming on millions of horses.

As I said, I understand your view...but for me the realistic account is after the "millions of horses" arrive with Jesus.
I see the amount of blood...."20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and the blood that flowed from it rose as high as the bridles of the horses for a distance of 1,600 stadia" seems unlikely at that moment...in Revelation.

 

[PinSeeker]

Then why mention it? <smile>

Because you brought it ("social economic times") up, and it has no relevance. Again, nothing to do with "social economic times." You should quite at these "gotcha" grabs, because you're reeeeeeeally bad at it. <smile>

Grace and peace.

 

[CrowCross]

Because you brought it ("social economic times") up, and it has no relevance. Again, nothing to do with "social economic times." You should quite at these "gotcha" grabs, because you're reeeeeeeally bad at it. <smile>

Grace and peace.

Then why did Jesus mention those "social economic times" if it means nothing???

 

[PinSeeker]

Then why did Jesus mention those "social economic times" if it means nothing???

<eye roll> Where are you talking about, CrowCross?

Grace and peace.

 

[David in NJ]

LOL....sure you can disagree all you want....but you haven't demonstrated the accuracy of your misbeliefs.
All you have done is tried to speak out against the connected dots ALL THE WHILE NEVER CONNECTING YOUR DOTS.

Do that, or kindly go away.

Speaking of going away = you are lacking Holy Spirit Oil

1“At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take along any extra oil. 4But the wise ones took oil in flasks along with their lamps. 5When the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

6At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’

7Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’

9‘No,’ said the wise ones, ‘or there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’

10But while they were on their way to buy it, the bridegroom arrived. Those who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet, and the door was shut.

11Later the other virgins arrived and said, ‘Lord, lord, open the door for us!’

12But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I do not know you.’

13Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.a

 

[rebuilder 454]

As I said, I understand your view...but for me the realistic account is after the "millions of horses" arrive with Jesus.
I see the amount of blood...."20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and the blood that flowed from it rose as high as the bridles of the horses for a distance of 1,600 stadia" seems unlikely at that moment...in Revelation.

Exactly.
That is what it says.
My point is from the other 2 previous groups of rev 14.
Read vs 1 through 14.
That other passage you mention is AFTER those previous events.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Then why did Jesus mention those "social economic times" if it means nothing???

He can not reconcile it, so he shoves it off the table.

 

[David in NJ]

Look at how he twisted that passage.
It says he SENDS TO GATHER saints IN HEAVEN.

THEN he comes later...AHEM, ....insert drum roll please....WITH THE SAINTS.

Plain crazy, that postrib rapture invented theory.

The LORD Jesus Christ is Post-Trib

And you call HIM "crazy"................think before you speak

 

[CrowCross]

Exactly.
That is what it says.
My point is from the other 2 previous groups of rev 14.
Read vs 1 through 14.
That other passage you mention is AFTER those previous events.

It starts off with...1Then I looked and saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion,

I see that associated with Zech 14:3Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. 4On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east,

I believe this is post trib...where Jesus returns at the physical 2nd coming.

 

[PinSeeker]

....as I have said Jesus spells out the social economical conditions. Those conditions will not be the social economic conditions at the end of the tribulation.

If by saying Jesus mentioned "social economical conditions" you are referring to Him saying that many will be "eating and drinking" and such, those are the "conditions" now, during the tribulation period, and at the end of the current tribulation period. They are going about their business with no concern about the anything coming to an end, or the "coming of the Son of Man" (Christ's return; they don't believe in Him at all), or any sort of judgment of any kind.

Now, after the period of tribulation is ended and the Son of Man does come (return), then yes, those "conditions" will be no more; everyone will see Him, and there will be no more... obliviousness. And it will happen suddenly and without warning. I've never implied nor said anything differently, and I don't think any other clear-thinking poster here has, either.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[CrowCross]

If by saying Jesus mentioned "social economical conditions" you are referring to Him saying that many will be "eating and drinking" and such, those are the "conditions" now, during the tribulation period, and at the end of the current tribulation period. They are going about their business with no concern about the anything coming to an end, or the "coming of the Son of Man" (Christ's return; they don't believe in Him at all), or any sort of judgment of any kind.

Now, after the period of tribulation is ended and the Son of Man does come (return), then yes, those "conditions" will be no more; everyone will see Him, and there will be no more... obliviousness. And it will happen suddenly and without warning. I've never implied nor said anything differently, and I don't think any other clear-thinking poster here has, either.

Grace and peace to you.

You're not really thinking it through...read Rev 8....1/3 of the world and its population doesn't fit the social economic conditions.
Sure...at that time some may..but Revelation continues. Revelation will be a time of great disaster for the world...by the end the world won't be recognizable.

 

[PinSeeker]

The gathering of rev 14:14 has no resurrection.
A "catching up" only.
The second coming of rev 19 on the white horses has no resurrection either., or rapture.

There is only one second coming.

It is a terrible misreading of Revelation to think everything mentioned is strictly chronologically sequential. What John is given is not just one vision but seven concurrent visions ~ each one spanning the same time period. Jesus's return and the second resurrection is "led up to," or approached, but stopped short of, in the first five:

• Revelation 14 (the third vision) stops short of mentioning the resurrection, as does Revelation 19 (the sixth).
• Revelation 14 (again, the third vision) actually stops short of the actual return of Jesus, describing it as about to happen
• Only in Revelation 19 (the sixth) and Revelation 20 (the seventh) do we actually see the return of Jesus; we all agree on Revelation 19:11-21, but Jesus's return is seen again in Revelation 20, specifically in Revelation 20:9... He is the "fire coming down from heaven and consuming the devil, beast and false prophet."
• And only in Revelation 20 do we actually "see" the second resurrection; when we get to Revelation 20:11, the second resurrection has just occurred, and all are standing before Jesus, Who then issues the final judgment ~ so the only one of the seven visions where we actually "see" the resurrection and the final judgment... and then the coming of the new heaven and new earth in Revelation 21:1-8.

Such a wooden understanding of the white horses in Revelation 19... There are no actual white horses involved. The white horses in Revelation 19 convey Jesus's coming with the armies of heaven in purity, final conquest, rescue, and victory/triumph.

And as I said previously, there is no "rapture" in the sense of any of us being "removed," or taken anywhere. The only ones actually departing, at that point, will be unbelievers, the unrepentant, the wicked, who will, as a result of the final judgment and Jesus's command, depart into eternal punishment, away from the new heaven and new earth, which is the second death.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[PinSeeker]

You're not really thinking it through...

Right back atcha.

read Rev 8....1/3 of the world and its population doesn't fit the social economic conditions.

"social economic conditions"... <chuckles>

Revelation 8:1 ends John's first (of seven) visions, and Revelation 8:2 begins the second.

As I said above to Rebuilder, it is a terrible misreading of Revelation to think everything mentioned is strictly chronologically sequential. What John is given is not just one vision but seven concurrent visions ~ each one spanning the same time period. Jesus's return and the second resurrection is "led up to," or approached, but stopped short of, in the first five.

Again, the second vision given to John begins in Revelation 8:2... and runs to Revelation 11:19.

So... Revelation is structured this way. Rather than seven visions, I think it better to describe it as seven concurrent cycles, and each one progressively more focused on the end and the return of Christ;

• Cycle 1: 7 seals 4:1-8:1
• Cycle 2: 7 trumpets 8:2-11:19
• Cycle 3: symbolic figures and the harvest 12:1-14:20
• Cycle 4: 7 bowls 15:1-16:21
• Cycle 5: judgment of Babylon 17:1-19:10
• Cycle 6: white horse judgment 19:11-21
• Cycle 7: white throne judgment 20:1-21:8
• The culminating act: new Jerusalem 21:9-22:5

Revelation will be a time of great disaster for the world...by the end the world won't be recognizable.

In a certain way, yes, I agree.

Grace and peace to you.