Only one rapture of all the saints, and only one second coming of Christ

[The Light]

You over complicate what is simple, why would God do that.

Jesus only taught the post-trib rapture. It is our gathering to Him.

Ephesians 1:10
that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

Jesus taught both the rapture of the Church before the great tribulation and the rapture of the 12 tribes immediately after the tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of God.

When Jesus comes at the 6th seal it is the gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The Church is gathered from heaven as we are raptured before the great tribulation. It is the Jews that go through the great tribulation. The Church is already gone.

At the 6th seal, the Church is gathered from heaven, and the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper and are the great multitude.

The woman, Israel, those that flee to a place of protection, will remain on the earth during the wrath of God.

 

[ewq1938]

The harvest that you see in Matthew 24 is the gathering from heaven and earth prior to the wrath of God. Believers are not appointed to wrath.

Yes they are. Not to the wrath of God but to the wrath of satan, Rev 12. You have to be more specific rather than saying there is no appointment to wrath because there is.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus taught both the rapture of the Church before the great tribulation and the rapture of the 12 tribes immediately after the tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of God.

He did not say anything about the 12 tribes specifically ever being raptured. You believe that so you have added it to the text in your memory of it but the text does not say that at all. Quote a passage saying that if you disagree.

He also never once said any rapture of the Church was before the trib. He and Paul places that after the trib.

 

[Davy]

The gathering is the gathering from heaven and earth. This is not the rapture of the Church.

Mark 13
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

You of course LEFT OUT THE 24th & 25TH VERSES where Jesus gave the exact timing of His coming...

Mark 13:24-26
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
KJV

So your pointing to the 6th SEAL is just you trying to use it as cannon fodder to prove your point, when it actually does not.

We get another view of this gathering here. It is the fall fruit harvest.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

NONE of those above Scriptures give the actual TIMING of that symbolic harvest. Just because the word "harvest" is used doesn't mean you can latch whatever timing you want to it. Jesus showed in His command to learn a parable of the fig tree that 'summer' is the symbolic timing He comes to gather His faithful Church, not spring.


And here's a little Bible lesson your pre-trib rapture preachers won't tell you...

1. There's 2 Parts to the 6th Seal. The first part is about the coming Antichrist... in... the... spring...

Rev 6:12-13
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
KJV

Those stars falling to earth is directly... related to the result of the war in Heaven written in Revelation 12:7 forward. It's about Satan and his angels being cast down to earth into OUR earthly dimension, in plain sight, for the end of this world.

That "untimely figs" idea is about real fig horticulture in the middle east. The EARLY fig, is one that grows in the winter, and FALLS OFF IN THE SPRING. As a spiritual metaphor for worship, it means BOWING IN WORSHIP TO THE WRONG MESSIAH, i.e., the first supernatural Messiah that comes to Jerusalem working great signs and wonders to deceive the world with. It means metaphorically an EARLY HARVEST time, which is NOT FOR CHRIST'S CHURCH. Instead, Jesus comes in the SUMMER HARVEST time, later to gather His Church.

2. The second part of the 6th Seal is about the actual "day of the Lord" when Jesus comes, and heaven departs as a scroll, and the mountains and islands moved out of their place.

 

[The Light]

The trumps and vials are not part of the 7th seal. After the 7th is opoened, the angels are given the trumps to sound but the seal is done and completed before the other events.

No. The trumpets and vials are the wrath of God.

No one is saying everything is over at the 7th trump. It's simply the second coming and when the wrath begins, as Rev 11 says.

The Word says everything is over at the 7th trumpet. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. ARMAGEDDON IS OVER.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

That's false. He used the analogies of the flood and fire at Sodom as examples of God's wrath and he said more after that using various stories/examples.

He also used Noahs flood which is the wrath of God.

What I meant is that all the things that happen in the OD......wars and rumors, famine disease......great tribulation and then the coming of Jesus are the first six seals. None of it is describing the wrath of God which occurs in the 7th seal.

The trumps are not the wrath but the vials are.

How can this be when the Word says that kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. That means that Armageddon is ready over and it is the time of judgement. Those first six vials have already happened when the 7th trumpet sounds.

Only because that is a strawman fallacy and your interpretations of teh seals, trumps and vials are wrong in almost every possible way.

I'm not the one changing the order of things.

The trumpets sound through the endtimes with the 6th being the trib, and the 7th is when the wrath comes.

The tribulation is over when the 6th seal is opened. Then we continue with the 7th seal and the events that happen. How can the trumpets not be part of the wrath of God.

That's actually a Pretrib issue because everything about the rapture places it after the trib has ended which is the only logical timeframe for it. God wants to gather all the Christian survivors of the trib when Christ returns and the wrath starts then because it is punishment for the horrible things the wicked did to the saints. The punishment does not start while the crimes are still being committed.

One we realize that there are two raptures everything falls in perfect order. No confusion. No skipping things.

You did a very, very good job of explaining things as you see them. I know it's incorrect, but I was able to follow. Thank you. I don't know how to get you to understand that when the 7th angel sounds Armageddon is already over. There are no vials to happen after the 7th trumpet sounds, they have already happened. It is the time of judgement.

 

[The Light]

He did not say anything about the 12 tribes specifically ever being raptured. You believe that so you have added it to the text in your memory of it but the text does not say that at all. Quote a passage saying that if you disagree.

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

He also never once said any rapture of the Church was before the trib. He and Paul places that after the trib.

We are told that we can escape ALL THESE THINGS which includes the great tribulation and stand before the Son of man.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You are confusing the gathering from heaven and earth with the rapture of the Church. The gathering from heaven and earth occurs immediately after the great tribulation. The Church is raptured before the great tribulation as we can escape all these things that will come to pass.

 

[The Light]

You of course LEFT OUT THE 24th & 25TH VERSES where Jesus gave the exact timing of His coming...

Mark 13:24-26
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
KJV

So you know the exact timing of His coming?

You are confusing the gathering from heaven and earth with the rapture of the Church. We know that He is coming immediately after the great tribulation. We also know this.

Matthew 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

So your pointing to the 6th SEAL is just you trying to use it as cannon fodder to prove your point, when it actually does not.

The gathering from heaven and earth occurs at the 6th seal. The rapture of the Church happens before the great tribulation.

NONE of those above Scriptures give the actual TIMING of that symbolic harvest. Just because the word "harvest" is used doesn't mean you can latch whatever timing you want to it. Jesus showed in His command to learn a parable of the fig tree that 'summer' is the symbolic timing He comes to gather His faithful Church, not spring.

He will come for the alive that remain in the summer. There is no need to warn the dead when He is coming.

And here's a little Bible lesson your pre-trib rapture preachers won't tell you...

1. There's 2 Parts to the 6th Seal. The first part is about the coming Antichrist... in... the... spring...

Rev 6:12-13
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
KJV

Those stars falling to earth is directly... related to the result of the war in Heaven written in Revelation 12:7 forward. It's about Satan and his angels being cast down to earth into OUR earthly dimension, in plain sight, for the end of this world.

That "untimely figs" idea is about real fig horticulture in the middle east. The EARLY fig, is one that grows in the winter, and FALLS OFF IN THE SPRING. As a spiritual metaphor for worship, it means BOWING IN WORSHIP TO THE WRONG MESSIAH, i.e., the first supernatural Messiah that comes to Jerusalem working great signs and wonders to deceive the world with. It means metaphorically an EARLY HARVEST time, which is NOT FOR CHRIST'S CHURCH. Instead, Jesus comes in the SUMMER HARVEST time, later to gather His Church.

I know Jesus comes for the Church in the summer, but you don't know that the gathering from heaven earth occurs in the fall.

And I know about the untimely figs.

2. The second part of the 6th Seal is about the actual "day of the Lord" when Jesus comes, and heaven departs as a scroll, and the mountains and islands moved out of their place.

Jesus comes at the 6th seal for a harvest prior to the wrath of God. It is the gathering from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth.

As for the Day of the Lord, it does NOT occur at the 6th seal. The Day of the Lord occurs at the 7th trumpet / 7th vial.