Only one rapture of all the saints, and only one second coming of Christ

[The Light]

You over complicate what is simple, why would God do that.

Jesus only taught the post-trib rapture. It is our gathering to Him.

Ephesians 1:10
that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him.

Jesus taught both the rapture of the Church before the great tribulation and the rapture of the 12 tribes immediately after the tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of God.

When Jesus comes at the 6th seal it is the gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The Church is gathered from heaven as we are raptured before the great tribulation. It is the Jews that go through the great tribulation. The Church is already gone.

At the 6th seal, the Church is gathered from heaven, and the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper and are the great multitude.

The woman, Israel, those that flee to a place of protection, will remain on the earth during the wrath of God.

 

[ewq1938]

The harvest that you see in Matthew 24 is the gathering from heaven and earth prior to the wrath of God. Believers are not appointed to wrath.

Yes they are. Not to the wrath of God but to the wrath of satan, Rev 12. You have to be more specific rather than saying there is no appointment to wrath because there is.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus taught both the rapture of the Church before the great tribulation and the rapture of the 12 tribes immediately after the tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of God.

He did not say anything about the 12 tribes specifically ever being raptured. You believe that so you have added it to the text in your memory of it but the text does not say that at all. Quote a passage saying that if you disagree.

He also never once said any rapture of the Church was before the trib. He and Paul places that after the trib.

 

[Davy]

The gathering is the gathering from heaven and earth. This is not the rapture of the Church.

Mark 13
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

You of course LEFT OUT THE 24th & 25TH VERSES where Jesus gave the exact timing of His coming...

Mark 13:24-26
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
KJV

So your pointing to the 6th SEAL is just you trying to use it as cannon fodder to prove your point, when it actually does not.

We get another view of this gathering here. It is the fall fruit harvest.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

NONE of those above Scriptures give the actual TIMING of that symbolic harvest. Just because the word "harvest" is used doesn't mean you can latch whatever timing you want to it. Jesus showed in His command to learn a parable of the fig tree that 'summer' is the symbolic timing He comes to gather His faithful Church, not spring.


And here's a little Bible lesson your pre-trib rapture preachers won't tell you...

1. There's 2 Parts to the 6th Seal. The first part is about the coming Antichrist... in... the... spring...

Rev 6:12-13
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
KJV

Those stars falling to earth is directly... related to the result of the war in Heaven written in Revelation 12:7 forward. It's about Satan and his angels being cast down to earth into OUR earthly dimension, in plain sight, for the end of this world.

That "untimely figs" idea is about real fig horticulture in the middle east. The EARLY fig, is one that grows in the winter, and FALLS OFF IN THE SPRING. As a spiritual metaphor for worship, it means BOWING IN WORSHIP TO THE WRONG MESSIAH, i.e., the first supernatural Messiah that comes to Jerusalem working great signs and wonders to deceive the world with. It means metaphorically an EARLY HARVEST time, which is NOT FOR CHRIST'S CHURCH. Instead, Jesus comes in the SUMMER HARVEST time, later to gather His Church.

2. The second part of the 6th Seal is about the actual "day of the Lord" when Jesus comes, and heaven departs as a scroll, and the mountains and islands moved out of their place.

 

[The Light]

The trumps and vials are not part of the 7th seal. After the 7th is opoened, the angels are given the trumps to sound but the seal is done and completed before the other events.

No. The trumpets and vials are the wrath of God.

No one is saying everything is over at the 7th trump. It's simply the second coming and when the wrath begins, as Rev 11 says.

The Word says everything is over at the 7th trumpet. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. ARMAGEDDON IS OVER.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

That's false. He used the analogies of the flood and fire at Sodom as examples of God's wrath and he said more after that using various stories/examples.

He also used Noahs flood which is the wrath of God.

What I meant is that all the things that happen in the OD......wars and rumors, famine disease......great tribulation and then the coming of Jesus are the first six seals. None of it is describing the wrath of God which occurs in the 7th seal.

The trumps are not the wrath but the vials are.

How can this be when the Word says that kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. That means that Armageddon is ready over and it is the time of judgement. Those first six vials have already happened when the 7th trumpet sounds.

Only because that is a strawman fallacy and your interpretations of teh seals, trumps and vials are wrong in almost every possible way.

I'm not the one changing the order of things.

The trumpets sound through the endtimes with the 6th being the trib, and the 7th is when the wrath comes.

The tribulation is over when the 6th seal is opened. Then we continue with the 7th seal and the events that happen. How can the trumpets not be part of the wrath of God.

That's actually a Pretrib issue because everything about the rapture places it after the trib has ended which is the only logical timeframe for it. God wants to gather all the Christian survivors of the trib when Christ returns and the wrath starts then because it is punishment for the horrible things the wicked did to the saints. The punishment does not start while the crimes are still being committed.

One we realize that there are two raptures everything falls in perfect order. No confusion. No skipping things.

You did a very, very good job of explaining things as you see them. I know it's incorrect, but I was able to follow. Thank you. I don't know how to get you to understand that when the 7th angel sounds Armageddon is already over. There are no vials to happen after the 7th trumpet sounds, they have already happened. It is the time of judgement.

 

[The Light]

He did not say anything about the 12 tribes specifically ever being raptured. You believe that so you have added it to the text in your memory of it but the text does not say that at all. Quote a passage saying that if you disagree.

Matthew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

He also never once said any rapture of the Church was before the trib. He and Paul places that after the trib.

We are told that we can escape ALL THESE THINGS which includes the great tribulation and stand before the Son of man.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You are confusing the gathering from heaven and earth with the rapture of the Church. The gathering from heaven and earth occurs immediately after the great tribulation. The Church is raptured before the great tribulation as we can escape all these things that will come to pass.

 

[The Light]

You of course LEFT OUT THE 24th & 25TH VERSES where Jesus gave the exact timing of His coming...

Mark 13:24-26
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
KJV

So you know the exact timing of His coming?

You are confusing the gathering from heaven and earth with the rapture of the Church. We know that He is coming immediately after the great tribulation. We also know this.

Matthew 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

So your pointing to the 6th SEAL is just you trying to use it as cannon fodder to prove your point, when it actually does not.

The gathering from heaven and earth occurs at the 6th seal. The rapture of the Church happens before the great tribulation.

NONE of those above Scriptures give the actual TIMING of that symbolic harvest. Just because the word "harvest" is used doesn't mean you can latch whatever timing you want to it. Jesus showed in His command to learn a parable of the fig tree that 'summer' is the symbolic timing He comes to gather His faithful Church, not spring.

He will come for the alive that remain in the summer. There is no need to warn the dead when He is coming.

And here's a little Bible lesson your pre-trib rapture preachers won't tell you...

1. There's 2 Parts to the 6th Seal. The first part is about the coming Antichrist... in... the... spring...

Rev 6:12-13
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
KJV

Those stars falling to earth is directly... related to the result of the war in Heaven written in Revelation 12:7 forward. It's about Satan and his angels being cast down to earth into OUR earthly dimension, in plain sight, for the end of this world.

That "untimely figs" idea is about real fig horticulture in the middle east. The EARLY fig, is one that grows in the winter, and FALLS OFF IN THE SPRING. As a spiritual metaphor for worship, it means BOWING IN WORSHIP TO THE WRONG MESSIAH, i.e., the first supernatural Messiah that comes to Jerusalem working great signs and wonders to deceive the world with. It means metaphorically an EARLY HARVEST time, which is NOT FOR CHRIST'S CHURCH. Instead, Jesus comes in the SUMMER HARVEST time, later to gather His Church.

I know Jesus comes for the Church in the summer, but you don't know that the gathering from heaven earth occurs in the fall.

And I know about the untimely figs.

2. The second part of the 6th Seal is about the actual "day of the Lord" when Jesus comes, and heaven departs as a scroll, and the mountains and islands moved out of their place.

Jesus comes at the 6th seal for a harvest prior to the wrath of God. It is the gathering from heaven and earth. The Church is gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes are gathered from the earth.

As for the Day of the Lord, it does NOT occur at the 6th seal. The Day of the Lord occurs at the 7th trumpet / 7th vial.

 

[ewq1938]

We are told that we can escape ALL THESE THINGS which includes the great tribulation and stand before the Son of man.

This is how to escape such things;

1Co_10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Not physical escape but escaping it through being able to bear it, like Christ and the disciples did etc.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You are confusing the gathering from heaven and earth with the rapture of the Church.

They are the same thing. The rapture is the gathering and it happens after the trib.

The Church is raptured before the great tribulation as we can escape all these things that will come to pass.

Incorrect. Jesus addressed this idea:

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them [tereo ek] from the evil one.

Jesus did not pray that God would take people out of this world to keep them from the evil one. That means Jesus does not approve of rapturing people out of this world to protect them from the evil one. Since Jesus does not approve of that then why do you (anyone reading that believes in a pre-trib rapture that takes people out of this world to keep them from the evil one) support such a concept?

No one is going to be taken out of the world so they can be "kept" from the evil one. That's not how God does things. The rapture is not an exception to that. We can be kept from the evil one while still being right here in the world. This is true when the evil one will work through the two beasts of Rev 13 during the tribulation when the church is persecuted worse than at any other time.

Anyone teaching a Pre-trib rapture is going directly against the teaching of Jesus in the above verse.

 

[ewq1938]

No. The trumpets and vials are the wrath of God.


The Word says everything is over at the 7th trumpet. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. ARMAGEDDON IS OVER.

Except it doesn't say that. Armageddon happens after the 7th trump sounds and involves the defeat of the beasts army.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

He also used Noahs flood which is the wrath of God.

What I meant is that all the things that happen in the OD......wars and rumors, famine disease......great tribulation and then the coming of Jesus are the first six seals. None of it is describing the wrath of God which occurs in the 7th seal.

No wrath happens in the 7th seal nor is any wrath even mention ed or described. The only mention of wrath is in the 6th seal and no surprise because that seal described 7th trump future events and it's the last trump that is when the wrath of God begins.

How can this be when the Word says that kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. That means that Armageddon is ready over and it is the time of judgement.

It does not mean the war is over. He has taken possession of all kingdoms, but is yet to destroy the army. The civilians of those kingdoms will be ruled over in the Mill.

Those first six vials have already happened when the 7th trumpet sounds.

No, they pour after the 7th sounds.

I'm not the one changing the order of things.


The tribulation is over when the 6th seal is opened.

Nope. The trib won't start for a long time after it.

Then we continue with the 7th seal and the events that happen. How can the trumpets not be part of the wrath of God.

The vials of wrath are the wrath of God. Only the 7th trump is part because it sounds then the vials of wrath pour.

One we realize that there are two raptures everything falls in perfect order. No confusion. No skipping things.

Two raptures are not in scripture. There is one, and no one is left over to be raptured later.

You did a very, very good job of explaining things as you see them. I know it's incorrect, but I was able to follow. Thank you. I don't know how to get you to understand that when the 7th angel sounds Armageddon is already over. There are no vials to happen after the 7th trumpet sounds, they have already happened. It is the time of judgement.

Appreciate that but my understanding of Rev and it's chronology differs from yours.

 

[William Barton]

The trump of God is the voice of God.

The last trump has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet blown by an angel. The last trump is the last trump that is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

The Light suggested:
<The last trump has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet blown by an angel>

Bible suggested:
"For the LORD HIMSELF will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the ARCHANGEL'S CALL, and with the SOUND OF THE TRUMPET OF GOD, and the dead in Christ will rise first." (1Thessalonians 4:16)

The seven Jewish feasts indicate seven acts of Messiah Jesus:
o Passover--Slain as a lamb (Is 53:7)
o Unleavened Bread--He had done no violence (Is 53:9)
o First Fruits--First fruits from grave (Psalm 16:10)
o Pentecost--Sends the Spirit (Joel 2:28)
o Day of Trumpets--Returns in judgment (Dan 7:13)
o Day of Atonement--Atones for Israel (Is 59:20)
o Booths--Millennial reign (Ps 72:12)
(Levin is symbolic of sin, hence "unleavened bread").

 

[The Light]

The Light suggested:
<Nothing to do with the seventh trumpet blown by an angel>

"For the LORD HIMSELF will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the ARCHANGEL'S CALL, and with the SOUND OF THE TRUMPET OF GOD, and the dead in Christ will rise first." (1Thessalonians 4:16)

The seven Jewish feasts indicate seven acts of Messiah Jesus:
o Passover--Slain as a lamb (Is 53:7)
o Unleavened Bread--He had done no violence (Is 53:9)
o First Fruits--First fruits from grave (Psalm 16:10)
o Pentecost--Sends the Spirit (Joel 2:28)
o Day of Trumpets--Returns in judgment (Dan 7:13)
o Day of Atonement--Atones for Israel (Is 59:20)
o Booths--Millennial reign (Ps 72:12)

Contrary to popular opinion the Spirit is sent 50 days later on the Feast of New Wine.

Pentecost is the presenting of the barley and wheat first fruits by the priest. It is also the time of the spring barley harvest which are the dead in Christ.

The wheat harvest occurs at the end of summer and is the alive that remain of the Church..

As for the Feast of Trumpets it is the Fall fruit harvest. These that are raptured from the earth at the 6th seal are the 12 tribes, the seed of the woman, that get victory over the beast. They are Jews.

 

[William Barton]

The Light noted:
"Spirit is sent 50 days later on the Feast of New Wine"

Bible noted:
"When the day of *Pentecost* came...rushing wind...filled with the *Holy Spirit.*" (Acts 2:1-4).

Yes, the seven Jewish holidays had an agricultural, civil, and religious connotation, as do American holidays. I am discussing the religious connotations.

 

[The Light]

The Light noted:
"Spirit is sent 50 days later on the Feast of New Wine"

Bible noted:
"When the day of *Pentecost* came...rushing wind...filled with the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:1-4).

Pentecost was fully come 50 days later on the Feast of New Wine.

Acts 2
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

Let's keep reading.

Acts 2
12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?

13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

 

[Scott Downey]

The Light suggested:
<Nothing to do with the seventh trumpet blown by an angel>

Bible suggested:
"For the LORD HIMSELF will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the ARCHANGEL'S CALL, and with the SOUND OF THE TRUMPET OF GOD, and the dead in Christ will rise first." (1Thessalonians 4:16)

The seven Jewish feasts indicate seven acts of Messiah Jesus:
o Passover--Slain as a lamb (Is 53:7)
o Unleavened Bread--He had done no violence (Is 53:9)
o First Fruits--First fruits from grave (Psalm 16:10)
o Pentecost--Sends the Spirit (Joel 2:28)
o Day of Trumpets--Returns in judgment (Dan 7:13)
o Day of Atonement--Atones for Israel (Is 59:20)
o Booths--Millennial reign (Ps 72:12)

On the Last Day of this World-Age is the resurrection, and highly appropriate for such a thing
Search for Last Day reveals the truth
Resurrection and judgment of the wicked and unbelieving are on the Last Day, as is the resurrection of the saints.

Got to be raised up to face judgment.

1. John 6:39
   This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. John 6:40
   And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. John 6:44
   No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. John 6:54
   Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
5. John 11:24
   Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
6. John 12:48
   He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him— the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
   
   
   

 

[The Light]

On the Last Day of this World-Age is the resurrection, and highly appropriate for such a thing
Search for Last Day reveals the truth
Resurrection and judgment of the wicked and unbelieving are on the Last Day, as is the resurrection of the saints.

Got to be raised up to face judgment.

1. John 6:39
   This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. John 6:40
   And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. John 6:44
   No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. John 6:54
   Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
5. John 11:24
   Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
6. John 12:48
   He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him— the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
   
   

The end of the age occurs at the 6th seal. Period.

 

[Davy]

So you know the exact timing of His coming?

I know the timing HE SAID. Why don't you? Who do you listen to instead of Jesus Christ?

You are confusing the gathering from heaven and earth with the rapture of the Church. We know that He is coming immediately after the great tribulation. We also know this.

I'm clarifying, not confusing what Jesus said there in His Olivet discourse. The Matthew 24:31 verse and the Mark 13:27 verse parallel 'directly' with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 about Christ's coming and gathering of His Church.

GATHERED FROM:

The Matthew 24:31 verse = gathered "from one end of heaven to the other." That is about the asleep saints that have died, which Paul said Jesus will bring with Him when He descends to earth on the last day of this world when they are raised from the dead (1 Thess.4:13-16).

The Mark 13:27 verse = gathered "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." That is about the saints still alive on that day when Jesus comes, as Paul said these are (changed to their "spiritual body" per 1 Cor.15), and then "caught up" to Jesus in the "air", at His descent.

Now if you want to reject the simplicity of that, because it is simple, and it shows Paul was preaching the same exact coming and gathering by Jesus Christ of His Church, that Lord Jesus Himself showed, then you cannot be helped and are in danger, unless you REPENT.

 

[The Light]

This is how to escape such things;

1Co_10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Not physical escape but escaping it through being able to bear it, like Christ and the disciples did etc.

So let me get straight. You are comparing being able to escape TEMPTATION to the Church escaping the GREAT TRIBULATION?

Escaping temptation so that we can bear it is spiritual overcoming. Escaping the great tribulation is physically escaping.

Totally illogical and totally out of context. Your logic is continually flawed. I realize this out of context false teaching has been passed around for decades if not centuries. Simple common sense easily dispatches this nonsense.

They are the same thing. The rapture is the gathering and it happens after the trib.

The rapture of the Church occurs before great tribulation. See Revelation 5. The gathering from heaven and earth occurs after the great tribulation. See Matthew 24.

Incorrect. Jesus addressed this idea:

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them [tereo ek] from the evil one.

Jesus did not pray that God would take people out of this world to keep them from the evil one. That means Jesus does not approve of rapturing people out of this world to protect them from the evil one. Since Jesus does not approve of that then why do you (anyone reading that believes in a pre-trib rapture that takes people out of this world to keep them from the evil one) support such a concept?

Did you even bother to continue reading and look at the Greek.

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one. Please leave my disciples in the world because if you take them out of the world there will be no one to spread Christianity.

Again, flawed logic from a false teaching that uses out of context reasoning.

No one is going to be taken out of the world so they can be "kept" from the evil one. That's not how God does things. The rapture is not an exception to that. We can be kept from the evil one while still being right here in the world. This is true when the evil one will work through the two beasts of Rev 13 during the tribulation when the church is persecuted worse than at any other time.

Or we can use common sense and realize that we can escape ALL THESE THINGS that come to pass including the great tribulation, just like the Word of God says, AND STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Stand before the Son of man, puts everything in perspective. This is the Word of God. You either believe it or you don't. It's simple.

Anyone teaching a Pre-trib rapture is going directly against the teaching of Jesus in the above verse.

Again, totally and completely flawed logic and out of context.

Anyone that does understand that there are 3.5 years remaining in the 70th week of Daniel and the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel has no idea what is going on.

God is not done with His Chosen. Part of Israel will have its blindness removed after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the rapture of the Church before the great tribulation.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

You have the Church running around the earth during the great tribulation AND during the wrath of God. Flawed logic.

 

[The Light]

I know the timing HE SAID. Why don't you? Who do you listen to instead of Jesus Christ?

I know He comes immediately after the great tribulation at the 6th seal. I also know He comes more the once. You seem to deny this truth..........

Matthew 24
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

I'm clarifying, not confusing what Jesus said there in His Olivet discourse. The Matthew 24:31 verse and the Mark 13:27 verse parallel 'directly' with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 about Christ's coming and gathering of His Church.

GATHERED FROM:

The Matthew 24:31 verse = gathered "from one end of heaven to the other." That is about the asleep saints that have died, which Paul said Jesus will bring with Him when He descends to earth on the last day of this world when they are raised from the dead (1 Thess.4:13-16).

The Mark 13:27 verse = gathered "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." That is about the saints still alive on that day when Jesus comes, as Paul said these are (changed to their "spiritual body" per 1 Cor.15), and then "caught up" to Jesus in the "air", at His descent.

Now if you want to reject the simplicity of that, because it is simple, and it shows Paul was preaching the same exact coming and gathering by Jesus Christ of His Church, that Lord Jesus Himself showed, then you cannot be helped and are in danger, unless you REPENT.

In your opinion who or what are the 144,000??????????????????????

 

[The Light]

Except it doesn't say that. Armageddon happens after the 7th trump sounds and involves the defeat of the beasts army.

The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

No matter how you cut it, Armageddon is OVER. There are no vials to be poured out. It's done. It is the time of judgement.

No wrath happens in the 7th seal nor is any wrath even mention ed or described.

Ok. You can pretend there are no trumpets and vials of God's wrath in the 7th seal if you want.

How can you imagine that those trumpets and vials are not the wrath of God?

Your logic is constantly flawed.

The only mention of wrath is in the 6th seal and no surprise because that seal described 7th trump future events and it's the last trump that is when the wrath of God begins.

The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus for a harvest PRIOR TO the wrath of God which is the 7th seal.

The 6th seal is not the 7th trumpet.

The 6th seal is the 6th seal, and the 7th seal contains all 7 trumpets and vials of God's wrath.

It does not mean the war is over. He has taken possession of all kingdoms, but is yet to destroy the army. The civilians of those kingdoms will be ruled over in the Mill.

I have never seen anyone with logic like yours in my life. No matter what the Word of God says, you disregard and plug in whatever you want.

No, they pour after the 7th sounds.

When the 7th trumpet sounds..........it's OVER. There are not vials to be poured out. It is the time of judgement.

Nope. The trib won't start for a long time after it.

The great tribulation is OVER when the 6th seal is opened.

IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days, the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. Matthew 24

And when He opened the 6th the seal, the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. Revelation 6

Obviously, the great tribulation is over when the 6th seal is opened.

Why not try once in your life to see what happens when you believe what is written and stop drawing a plethora of false conclusions?

The vials of wrath are the wrath of God. Only the 7th trump is part because it sounds then the vials of wrath pour.

Its judgement time when the 7th trumpet sounds. Wrath is over.

Two raptures are not in scripture. There is one, and no one is left over to be raptured later.

It's all over the play. There are two raptures. Two folds become one-fold, the great multitude.

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Appreciate that but my understanding of Rev and it's chronology differs from yours.

You are a good guy. However, your logic is constantly flawed. Have you ever thought about letting the Word of God determine your doctrine?

If ever, I would start with 7 follows 6.

 

[ewq1938]

So let me get straight. You are comparing being able to escape TEMPTATION to the Church escaping the GREAT TRIBULATION?

The verse shows an escape by bearing something not physically leaving.

The rapture of the Church occurs before great tribulation. See Revelation 5.

That is not the rapture. Christ and Paul both placed the rapture AFTER the trib not before it. Pretrib thinks the falling away/Apostasy is the rapture. I shouldn't have to explain how dangerous that belief is.