Connecting the dots = a pre-tribulation rapture.

[jeffweeder]

It's hard to tell just what you have said.

Why not ask me to clarify instead of misrepresenting me?

Tribulation of Noah's day
5 The Lord saw that the wickedness (depravity) of man was great on the earth, and that every imagination or intent of the thoughts of his heart were only evil continually. 6 The Lord regretted that He had made mankind on the earth, and He was [deeply] grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy (annihilate) mankind whom I have created from the surface of the earth—not only man, but the animals and the crawling things and the birds of the air—because it [deeply] grieves Me [to see mankind’s sin] and I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor and grace in the eyes of the Lord.

Only Noah and family are left to save.

If pretrib were true, why not whisk them away before this point?
God instead protects them from his wrath to come (not the tribulation that leads to total depravity) and they survived. This then is a post trib setting.

So shall it be when Jesus comes.

After the trib of those days Jesus comes in vengeance to eternally separate the wicked and glorify his own.
Jude is a good read of us being present as judgment is poured out on the wicked....,


21 and keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously and looking forward to the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ [which will bring you] to eternal life.

22 And have mercy on some, who are doubting; 23 save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy but with fear, loathing even the clothing spotted and polluted by their shameless immoral freedom.

 

[ScottA]

sorry scott but only in part you had been right . TIS True that JESUS indwells The beleiver
and its true they have been ressurected from death unto life .
BUT JUST AS TRUE is the FACT that JESUS IS COMING again the second time . NOW WHEN HE DO
its to lay d own the WRATH OF GOD against any and against all that fell for aharlots love and thus denied Him .

Do you not know that evil is swallowed up in death, which is the dividing of the light from the darkness, even since the beginning? Are you too to be caught up for so long in the lie of prolonging these days and allowing evil even a little more time, by the teachings of men?

 

[ewq1938]

He tried to use getting on the boat as some sort of answer to the social economic conditions of the day....which was strange.

In the end it sounded like @jeffweeder was presenting a theology christians are only raptured after the tribulation...which is him saying Noah got on the ark after the flood.

I trust you stand corrected.

The flood isn't the tribulation. What condition the world was in before the flood would be the tribulation and entering the ark would be the rapture, and the flood would be the wrath of God. Same with the sister story of Lot where the trib is BEFORE the leaving, and the wrath of God comes after that.

The world before the flood/tribulation. Noah enters safety of the Ark/post-trib. Flood is wrath of God.
The world before the fires/tribulation. Lot leaves Sodom to a place of safety/post-trib. Fire is the wrath of God.

Pretrib always makes the error of placing the wrath of God in the trib to make the being safe/going to safe place happen in the wrong part of the event timeline.

 

[ScottA]

@amigo de christo
View attachment 90293

That is from Paul, but he also qualifies it elsewhere ("here a little there a little"), and yet most do not put it together, but use that passage out of context, and therefore many have got it all wrong. Half-truth is a lie.

He qualified that passage, saying, "but each one in his own order"--defined in the original language as "each individual." Meaning, no mass, future event, but each person at their own time in history.

But most have believed the half-truth lie.

 

[CrowCross]

Why not ask me to clarify instead of misrepresenting me?

Tribulation of Noah's day
5 The Lord saw that the wickedness (depravity) of man was great on the earth, and that every imagination or intent of the thoughts of his heart were only evil continually. 6 The Lord regretted that He had made mankind on the earth, and He was [deeply] grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy (annihilate) mankind whom I have created from the surface of the earth—not only man, but the animals and the crawling things and the birds of the air—because it [deeply] grieves Me [to see mankind’s sin] and I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor and grace in the eyes of the Lord.

Only Noah and family are left to save.

If pretrib were true, why not whisk them away before this point?
God instead protects them from his wrath to come (not the tribulation that leads to total depravity) and they survived. This then is a post trib setting.

So shall it be when Jesus comes.

After the trib of those days Jesus comes in vengeance to eternally separate the wicked and glorify his own.
Jude is a good read of us being present as judgment is poured out on the wicked....,


21 and keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously and looking forward to the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ [which will bring you] to eternal life.

22 And have mercy on some, who are doubting; 23 save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy but with fear, loathing even the clothing spotted and polluted by their shameless immoral freedom.

I would say it's more of a removal from judgement rather than protection for the pre-tribulation saints when Jesus returns and takes the saints to heaven at the rapture/resurrection event.
Noah and Lot each were removed from the judgement....both in different ways as the pre-trib rapture will also be in a different way.
But as you know of and still refuse to see is the social economic conditions prior to the judgement of the flood as well as the judgement that was going to rain down on Sodom. Jesus isn't describing the nuts and bolts of the flood or brimstone judgements...whether the people were taken away by the flood waters or Noah was taken away on the flood waters....but rather the social economic conditions.

The bible tells us Jesus will return...in the like manner He left. What you say is for the most part true, "After the trib of those days Jesus comes in vengeance to eternally separate the wicked and glorify his own." YES, Jesus does come "after" or at the end of the tribulation judgement....and.....as the bible shows also comes prior to the tribulation and removes the christians from the wrath they are not destined for. This wrath as played out by God as Satan pitches in and delivers his wrath utterly destroys the social economic conditions during the 7 year tribulation.

The question is...why would Jesus speak of good social economic times in the evil world as too when He will return then not return during those conditions .... and Jesus' return only be limited to one return at the end of the tribulation...when those conditions will not exist?

 

[CrowCross]

The flood isn't the tribulation. What condition the world was in before the flood would be the tribulation and entering the ark would be the rapture, and the flood would be the wrath of God. Same with the sister story of Lot where the trib is BEFORE the leaving, and the wrath of God comes after that.

????? I don't see it that way. The condition the world was in before the flood would be NOT BE the tribulation.
Like today the world is full of evil...like with Noah the world was full of evil....BUT.....despite this evil there was a social economic times described by Jesus. After the flood the social economic conditions did NOT exist. After Sodom was destroyed the social economic times Jesus spoke of no longer existed...and neither did Sodom.
Christians like Noah and Lot will be removed at the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection event where Jesus returns in the way He left in....when the social economical conditions will be similar.....OR DO YOU DISAGREE?

The world before the flood/tribulation. Noah enters safety of the Ark/post-trib. Flood is wrath of God.
The world before the fires/tribulation. Lot leaves Sodom to a place of safety/post-trib. Fire is the wrath of God.

Pretrib always makes the error of placing the wrath of God in the trib to make the being safe/going to safe place happen in the wrong part of the event timeline.

What a strange concept...."Pretrib always makes the error of placing the wrath of God in the trib"....then when is the wrath of God? Point out the pre-trib mistake.
You place the wrath of God at the end of the tribulation. That is, according to you, the 7 years are over....then comes the wrath...JUDGEMENT...of God. The wrath begins when the first seal is opened by Jesus and the antichrist comes trotting out on his white horse.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Why not ask me to clarify instead of misrepresenting me?

Tribulation of Noah's day
5 The Lord saw that the wickedness (depravity) of man was great on the earth, and that every imagination or intent of the thoughts of his heart were only evil continually. 6 The Lord regretted that He had made mankind on the earth, and He was [deeply] grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy (annihilate) mankind whom I have created from the surface of the earth—not only man, but the animals and the crawling things and the birds of the air—because it [deeply] grieves Me [to see mankind’s sin] and I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor and grace in the eyes of the Lord.

Only Noah and family are left to save.

If pretrib were true, why not whisk them away before this point?
God instead protects them from his wrath to come (not the tribulation that leads to total depravity) and they survived. This then is a post trib setting.

So shall it be when Jesus comes.

After the trib of those days Jesus comes in vengeance to eternally separate the wicked and glorify his own.
Jude is a good read of us being present as judgment is poured out on the wicked....,


21 and keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously and looking forward to the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ [which will bring you] to eternal life.

22 And have mercy on some, who are doubting; 23 save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy but with fear, loathing even the clothing spotted and polluted by their shameless immoral freedom.

QUOTE
"Only Noah and family are left to save.
If pretrib were true, why not whisk them away before this point?
God instead protects them from his wrath to come (not the tribulation that leads to total depravity) and they survived. This then is a post trib setting.
So shall it be when Jesus comes."

Ahem, there is nothing of a Noah gathering ,to or into anything, other than his PRETRIB GATHERING into the ark.

Nothing of a "mid flood" gathering, or a "postflood" gathering.

What we DO SEE is Noah over a mile into the heavens DURING THE ENTIRE TRIB.
....and Noah RETURNS to earth FRIM THE HEAVENS POSTRIB.

Hmmnmm, what a coincidence, that mirrors a pretrib rapture perfectly.

....and destroys some notion of Noah gathered pretrib....especially when THE SETTING is vividly described as PRETRIB.

 

[rebuilder 454]

????? I don't see it that way. The condition the world was in before the flood would be NOT BE the tribulation.
Like today the world is full of evil...like with Noah the world was full of evil....BUT.....despite this evil there was a social economic times described by Jesus. After the flood the social economic conditions did NOT exist. After Sodom was destroyed the social economic times Jesus spoke of no longer existed...and neither did Sodom.
Christians like Noah and Lot will be removed at the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection event where Jesus returns in the way He left in....when the social economical conditions will be similar.....OR DO YOU DISAGREE?

What a strange concept...."Pretrib always makes the error of placing the wrath of God in the trib"....then when is the wrath of God? Point out the pre-trib mistake.
You place the wrath of God at the end of the tribulation. That is, according to you, the 7 years are over....then comes the wrath...JUDGEMENT...of God. The wrath begins when the first seal is opened by Jesus and the antichrist comes trotting out on his white horse.

Not only that, but the 4 horseman wrath is released BY HEAVEN in the seals.

They try to do hyperseparation of "wrath" vs "trib"
Hyperdefinitions also are tools they use to make the scriptures bend into their false doctrine.

In mat 24 we see " great tribulation such as the world has never seen, nor ever will see again"

Huh?????
That is the last part of thec7 yr trib.
Ahem, THE WRATH....being called tribulation.

 

[David in NJ]

I tell you--the Way spoken of in the scriptures, is the way of the Kingdom--in spirit, as God is spirit.

Just don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

 

[CrowCross]

QUOTE
"Only Noah and family are left to save.
If pretrib were true, why not whisk them away before this point?
God instead protects them from his wrath to come (not the tribulation that leads to total depravity) and they survived. This then is a post trib setting.
So shall it be when Jesus comes."

They seem to fail to realize God removed them from the flood. They didn't go through the judgement.

Ahem, there is nothing of a Noah gathering ,to or into anything, other than his PRETRIB GATHERING into the ark.

Nothing of a "mid flood" gathering, or a "postflood" gathering.

God shut the door prior to the rain starting.
The christians will be resurrected or raptured prior to the tribulation beginning.

 

[CrowCross]

There is no "age" to come per se, but rather eternity. Which is only "to come" in the sense that those who pass from death to life do so hereafter. Which is only true from the perspective of this world--a perspective of the dead referred to in their own language--which perspective also passes away, leaving only eternity...which always was and shall be.

Isn't the 1,000 year reign of Christ an "age" to come?

 

[ScottA]

Just don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

Not sure how you mean that.

 

[ScottA]

Isn't the 1,000 year reign of Christ an "age" to come?

It was an age to come, but began when all authority in heaven and earth was given to Jesus Christ. The term "a thousand years" is better understood to mean "the fullness of time", as days, and years, etc, are all often stated by definition of the original language as a general word meaning "time or times." Which then comes under the great illusion that time is with God, made manifest as a form of breaking down eternal truth incrementally by the grace of God for our learning, lest we be destroyed by the immense shock, as if by a fatal rush of wind/Spirit.

To fully understand, God "divided" His eternity incrementally by the formation of matter (the result of light and energy). Which creates "shadow of turning", i.e., darkness and evil. Therefore, the "times" are evil.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The flood isn't the tribulation. What condition the world was in before the flood would be the tribulation and entering the ark would be the rapture, and the flood would be the wrath of God. Same with the sister story of Lot where the trib is BEFORE the leaving, and the wrath of God comes after that.

The world before the flood/tribulation. Noah enters safety of the Ark/post-trib. Flood is wrath of God.
The world before the fires/tribulation. Lot leaves Sodom to a place of safety/post-trib. Fire is the wrath of God.

Pretrib always makes the error of placing the wrath of God in the trib to make the being safe/going to safe place happen in the wrong part of the event timeline.

You are changing the passage.
You are putting your intermediate timetable (a mid trib rapture of the church, force fitted into the 7 yr trib of the Noah analogy and none of it fits.)

(Remember, ALL POSTRIBBERS say the flood represents the trib).
Now you need it to represent the wrath, and paint yourself into several corners.

1) THE SETTING is not postrib/prewrath.
The ACTUAL setting is vividly pretrib.
2) you would need both Noah and Lot to be in your intermediate postrib/ prewrath imagined setting of horrible persecution of the antichrist.
Ahem, no buying or selling, no marriage, no commerce,

So now , play out your model.
When the AC is in power it will be no big deal, it will be life as usual.
Then sudden wrath.
No real tribulation with the AC at all.

 

[David in NJ]

Not sure how you mean that.

The Scriptures are indeed Spirit Authored from Above

The Scriptures also are about Living in the Spirit while in physical/flesh temples on a physical earth.
Which includes our responsibilities to the care of the physical Creation.

Observe: Revelation 11:18

And the nations were angry, and Your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged and to give the reward to Your servants the prophets, and to the saints and to those fearing Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who are destroying the earth.”

 

[CrowCross]

It was an age to come, but began when all authority in heaven and earth was given to Jesus Christ.

I disagree. I don't see a verse that even comes close to stating that.

The term "a thousand years" is better understood to mean "the fullness of time", as days, and years, etc, are all often stated by definition of the original language as a general word meaning "time or times." Which then comes under the great illusion that time is with God, made manifest as a form of breaking down eternal truth incrementally by the grace of God for our learning, lest we be destroyed by the immense shock, as if by a fatal rush of wind/Spirit.

Where does the bible suggest the 1,000 years means the fulness of time? Once again I don't see this in the bible.

To fully understand, God "divided" His eternity incrementally by the formation of matter (the result of light and energy). Which creates "shadow of turning", i.e., darkness and evil. Therefore, the "times" are evil.

That's way too complicated. As far as your "shadows of turning".....well, that's way out there my friend.

 

[ScottA]

The Scriptures are indeed Spirit Authored from Above

The Scriptures also are about Living in the Spirit while in physical/flesh temples on a physical earth.
Which includes our responsibilities to the care of the physical Creation.

Observe: Revelation 11:18

And the nations were angry, and Your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged and to give the reward to Your servants the prophets, and to the saints and to those fearing Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who are destroying the earth.”

I'm still not sure what you meant by throwing the baby out with the baby. That we have a responsibility to care for the physical creation?

If so, absolutely! But even that responsibility, should be concerned about understanding God's timing. For the nature body gives way either to the truth or to a lie--to the Way of Christ, or Antichrist. We serve the One, or the other.

 

[ScottA]

I disagree. I don't see a verse that even comes close to stating that.

Where does the bible suggest the 1,000 years means the fulness of time? Once again I don't see this in the bible.

That's way too complicated. As far as your "shadows of turning".....well, that's way out there my friend.

I have explained heavenly things (Godly things). Did you think His thoughts and ways are not higher as the scriptures say?

What did you think "the renewing of your mind" meant?

"Shadow of turning" is not mine, but a quote from scripture.

 

[CrowCross]

I have explained heavenly things (Godly things). Did you think His thoughts and ways are not higher as the scriptures say?

Why would I think otherwise? Did you ask that question to show just how spiritually superior you are?

What did you think "the renewing of your mind" meant?

Obviously it means whatever you think it means...after all you're a so-called biblical expert.

"Shadow of turning" is not mine, but a quote from scripture.

I'm sure it is.

 

[ScottA]

Why would I think otherwise? Did you ask that question to show just how spiritually superior you are?

Obviously it means whatever you think it means...after all you're a so-called biblical expert.

I'm sure it is.

Whether you are being sarcastic or envious, remember what Jesus said to Peter when he asked "what about [John]? Jesus replied, "What is that to you?"

So, what--what is that to you if God has bestowed upon me a great calling? How is it that you don't know or don't respect what He has done with many others, as is His way? And why would I not be forthright, when called upon to do so? Why would you be against rather than for such?