26 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine
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@Davy
1. The Greek of 2 Peter 3:10 (Stoicheia) Backfires on You
- What Stoicheia Means: In Greek, stoicheia refers to the basic components, building blocks, or elemental constituents of the physical universe (and often celestial bodies).
- The Surrounding Verbs Destroy Your Theory: Peter does not say the elements are merely "rearranged." He pairs stoicheia with kausoumena luthēsetai—literally "burning with intense heat, shall be dissolved / unloosed / destroyed."
- The Noahic Parallel: 2 Peter 3:6–7 explicitly explicitly compares this to the Flood: just as the ancient world perished by water, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire on the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
2. The Hermeneutical Fallacy of Zechariah 14
Fail as he is forcing Old Testament prophetic imagery to override explicit New Testament apostolic revelation.- Do you Want Literal Old Covenant Shadows? If Zechariah 14 must be taken with flat, physical literalism during the final state, then ask yourself: Are we going back to animal sacrifices and Old Covenant Mosaic requirements like mandatory physical travel to geographical Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles?
- The New Testament Context: The Book of Hebrews makes it explicitly clear that the Old Covenant shadows, physical sacrifices, and earthly Jerusalem were fulfilled and superseded in Christ (Hebrews 8–10; 12:22).
3. The "Unsaved Leftovers" Direct Textual Collision
Claims Zechariah 14 proves there are "unsaved leftovers" who survive the Second Coming to populate a mortal kingdom. This creates an unresolvable contradiction with the New Testament:| Davy's Premise (Zech 14 "Literal") | Explicit New Testament Didactic Text |
| Unsaved mortal "leftovers" survive the Second Coming | Revelation 19:21: "And the remnant were slain with the sword... and all the fowls were filled with their flesh." |
| Unregenerate nations live on earth alongside Christ | 2 Thessalonians 1:7–9: Christ is revealed in flaming fire taking vengeance, punishing the ungodly with eternal destruction away from His presence. |
| Liars and rebels inhabit the kingdom era | Revelation 21:8: All liars and unbelievers have their part in the lake of fire, which is the second death. |
Key Takeaway for the Thread
If Premils would simply compare Zech 14 to Rev 20 they would see that they do not corroborate each other. It shows how bereft Premil is of corroboration.
This am when I was reading Daniel, I noticed something of interest that confirms what we are saying about how the wicked and unbelieving will not inherit the earth of that time (The kingdom of God on earth)
Daniel 2
44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall [n]break in pieces and [o]consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. 45 Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold—the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure.”
It is only for the meek, as in for the people of God to be on that world, all the others, He cuts them off from the land
Matthew 5:5
Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth.
Also:
I Corinthians 6:9-10: “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”
The first thing we see here is that the kingdom of God is an inheritance for the redeemed alone. The wicked are not qualified to enter it, or are they welcome in it.
I Corinthians 15:50-52: “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
This passage correlates with I Corinthians 6:9-10, only showing that glorified saints are equipped to “inherit the kingdom of God” – which is seen here to be synonymous with entering into “incorruption.”
Psalm 37:9-11 says, “For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.”
Psalm 37:22 says, “For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.”
Psalm 25:12-13 says: “What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.”
Christ confirmed this in Matthew 5:5 saying, “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.”
I Thessalonians 2:12: “That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.”
Those who are “worthy of God” are “called you unto his kingdom and glory.” This tells us that God only calls believers “unto his kingdom and glory.” This is talking about the glorified state that the redeemed inherit in the age to come. Morals and mortality are not permitted in the age to come.
II Thessalonians 1:5: “Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer.”
One must worthy to “the kingdom of God.” That comes from being a child of God. The wicked are not qualified inherit the age to come.
Davy
Well-Known Member
Dr. James Strong's definition of Greek stoicheion, which is translated to "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10...
NT:4747
stoicheion (stoy-khi'-on); neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of NT:4748; something orderly in arrangement, i.e. (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literally), proposition (figuratively):
KJV - element, principle, rudiment.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
In ALL... other New Testament cases, that word is used about the elements and rudiments of the world (Gal.4:3; Gal.4:9; Col 2:8, Col 2:20). Scott has already been shown this, but still is determined to deceive the new babe into the doctrines of men he is deceived on, a doctrine called Amillennialism which crept in among Christ's Church in the 2nd century A.D., the same time when the Greek Neo-Platonists and Gnostics crept into Christ's Church and starting spreading false doctrines.
2 Peter 3 is about God's previous destructions of the 'surface'... of this earth by waters of a flood. There have been two world-wide destructions, which is what Peter is describing, the first one Peter says many "willingly are ignorant of." Then he declares a final destruction of this earth's surface of men's works off this earth, just like what God did with His previous destructions, wiping the surface clean of man's works. The only difference with this next destruction Peter is preaching, is that God will do the next one using His consuming fire. Peter is NOT straying off the subject of those previous destructions. He is including what level of destruction God did before upon the SURFACE of this earth before with that final one by His consuming fire. It will NOT literally destroy the whole earth, but will accomplish like what the flood destructions did, a cleansing of man's works off the surface of this earth, so that the things God created that should remain, will remain (See end of Hebrews 12 where it speaks of this.)
All the above is from men's false doctrine called Amillennialism. It denies Christ's future "thousand years" reign over the wicked and unsaved nations of Revelation 20, and instead pushes the false notion of a complete... destruction and remake of all of God's creation, which is NOT written.
Even the Zechariah 14 Scripture shows Lord Jesus when He comes in our near future with His elect Church, His feet will touch down upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, ON EARTH. How will He do that if there is no earth to descend to? So it's obvious that Scott has simply latched onto a Pop fantasy doctrine made up by men, and has either decided to disregard what God's written Word actually says, or he has been spiritually blinded by God Himself for some reason.
The New Testament still includes the CONCEPT of sacrifice. Since Lord Jesus died on the cross for the remission of the sins of those who believe, He became the One Perfect Sacrifice for all time (Hebrews 9:26). Now per The New Covenant, we are to offer up to God spiritual sacrifices by Jesus Christ, showing our love and Faith (1 Peter 2:5; Hebrews 13:15-16).
Therefore, just because Zechariah 14 mentions the idea of sacrifice does not mean it has to be about literal animal sacrifices during Christ's future reign over the unsaved. Scott is only using that as an EXCUSE to DENY the WHOLE Zechariah 14 Chapter which declares prophetic events that HAVE NEVER HAPPENED ON THIS EARTH BEFORE, and only will happen on the day of Christ's future return with His faithful Church to Jerusalem, ON EARTH, as written there.
One might even say that God intentionally put the mention of animal sacrifice in those Books of Old Testament prophets about the time after Christ's return just to see who would read it and heed all the 'other' prophecies written in them that is for the time after Jesus returns. God did it within the last nine Chapter of Ezekiel also.
(Continued...)
Davy
Well-Known Member
I NEVER said the Zechariah 14:16-20 leftovers populate a mortal kingdom, which suggests flesh births during Christ's future "thousand years" reign. Nah... that idea is nowhere written, and is just cannon fodder Scott is trying to use.
Look at this...
Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV
That's Lord Jesus speaking to His elect Church of Philadelphia. That "synagogue of Satan" represents Christ's greatest enemies here on earth. They have NEVER... to this day, ever bowed the knee at the feet of Christ's elect, which is about their being made to worship Jesus in His future Millennial reign.
Here's another example...
Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV
Even though that above prophecy is written in Revelation 22, its timing belongs with the Revelation 20 "thousand years" reign by Lord Jesus and His elect after His future return. Recall about those in The Gospel said to be cast to the "outer darkness". That is where the outer darkness will be, outside the gates of the beloved city on earth. That is where the wicked will be cast out to when Jesus returns to take reign over the unsaved.
Just so happens, the return of God's River of the Waters of Life, and the Tree of Life on either side of that River, are written to accompany Christ's future coming and reign over the unsaved nations. It still does not mean God's new heavens and a new earth timing just yet though, because the wicked will still exist throughout the "thousand years" reign by Christ Jesus. Ezekiel 47 shows God's River emitting out from under the future Millennial temple built by Lord Jesus when He returns. And it reveals the Tree of Life on either side of that River ON EARTH. It even gives it location in the middle east!
Thus the doctrines of men Scott is deceived on simply are false doctrines that dump much of the remaining prophecies written in God's Word in favor of their own created traditions and Pop doctrines, which are designed to deceive brethren who won't study to show themselves approved of God like Apostle Paul warned about (2 Timothy 2:15).
Yea right! When a literal application doesn't fit what you have been taught you spiritualize it away.
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Maybe you need to take your own advice, in this case.
Don't you need to do the same thing as well? Obviously, no matter how you look at it, everything in Zechariah 14 is meaning after Christ came, died, resurrected, then left. Which means it parallels even your millennium if you have everything pertaining to Zechariah 14 involving before Christ returns.
Per your view, after Christ died and rose, and before He returns, what is one thing that is fulfilled during that? Revelation 20:1-6, of course. How do you get past the fact that if Revelation 20 is not connected with Zechariah 14 in any way shape or form , then why do you have Zechariah 14 taking place during when you have Revelation 20:1-6 taking place? The exact same thing Premils do. Yet you are acting as if Premils are being illogical here, as if Zechariah 14 has no connection with when Revelation 20:1-6 is meaning.
Except Premils are not doing absurd things with Zechariah 14 like you are. Per your view you have even verse 2 paralleling when Revelation 20:1-6 is meaning. Premils don't. Premils have verse 2 meaning before Revelation 20:1-6 ever begins, not paralleling it instead.
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This is the No. 1 passage presented by Premils to support their opinion of Revelation 20, and they cannot get it to correlate in any way with the detail they attribute to it. That is because they're putting a square peg into a round hole. Amils have multiple passages that teach that Christ bound Satan’s kingdom through His life, death and resurrection. This is shown to have resulted in Satan being banished from heaven, with the whole demonic realm 2000 years ago. Various parallel Scriptures show Satan being released with the beast, and his minions before the second coming for a little season. There are also some pivotal passages that the demonic realm are all destroyed with Satan at the climactic second coming. Premil has zero corroboration for every facet of their theory re Revelation 20.
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This is the No. 1 passage presented by Premils to support their opinion of Revelation 20, and they cannot get it to correlate in any way with the detail they attribute to it. That is because they're putting a square peg into a round hole. Amils have multiple passages that teach that Christ bound Satan’s kingdom through His life, death and resurrection. This is shown to have resulted in Satan being banished from heaven, with the whole demonic realm 2000 years ago. Various parallel Scriptures show Satan being released with the beast, and his minions before the second coming for a little season. There are also some pivotal passages that the demonic realm are all destroyed with Satan at the climactic second coming. Premil has zero corroboration for every facet of their theory re Revelation 20.
The Campaign---Nations send their armies to attack Jerusalem (Zech 14:2).
Their Fate (Zech 14:12, Rev 19:21): God strikes those armies with a horrific, flesh-consuming plague.
The Remnant (Zech 14:16)---The survivors from those exact same nations are left over after that specific judgment.
Grammatically and logically, you cannot have a "remnant left over" from an event unless that event has already occurred. Because verse 12 has undeniably not happened yet in human history, verse 16 cannot be happening in the "here and now."
By forcing verse 16 into the present Church age, Amil creates a logical absurdity---it requires people to be "survivors" of a global catastrophic plague that won't happen until thousands of years after they die.
The Event (Rev 19:19 / Zech 14:2)----The nations of the earth gather their military forces to wage war against Christ and Jerusalem.
The Slaughter (Rev 19:21 / Zech 14:12)---Christ destroys the active combatants on the battlefield. Revelation describes them as "slain with the sword" and Zechariah provides the graphic medical detail of how that looks---their flesh consuming away while they stand on their feet.
The Survivors (Zech 14:16)---The non-combatants, citizens, or remaining populations back home in those aggressor nations are spared from the battlefield plague.
The Next Era (Zech 14:16): These survivors enter the subsequent kingdom period (the Millennium) and are required to submit to the King and keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
But Amils would have us believe that Zechariah lied to us in chapter 14 by telling us there are survivors from the nations which came against Jerusalem, but were spared the fate in Zech 14:12, which is also meaning Rev 19:21.
Verse 16 can't get fulfilled until verse 12 is fulfilled first. Verse 12 has not been fulfilled, in any sense, and Amils clearly know it. If Amil is the correct position, the only place verses 16-19 can logically fit is eternity, that it will be like that for forever. Don't come up = threatened with no rain all throughout eternity.
Premil avoids this absurdity. Premil has a period of time after the 2nd coming, thus after verse 12 has been fulfilled first, that can explain verses 16-19. Amils don't. All Amil has after the 2nd coming is all of eternity where verses 16-19 obviously do not belong. Nor do those verses belong to the here and now since their fulfillment relies on verse 12 being fulfilled first, which, like I already pointed out, is also meaning Rev 19:21. Are Amils seriously going to argue that Zechariah 14:12 and Revelation 19:21 are not describing the same event from different perspectives?
As to prophecy in general. No prophecies make any sense unless there is a coherent chronology involved, regardless what sense they are fulfilled in. No one can deny that Zechariah 14 involves prophecy.
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The problem is: you make it a global event when Scripture makes it a local event in the Middle East.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Exactly. Those who inherit the kingdom of God when Jesus comes will inherit "eternal life" at that time (Matt 25:46). They will have immortal bodies that allow them to have eternal life. Meanwhile, at that time unbelievers will be cast "into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt 25:41). So, where do the mortals that premils think will inherit the earth when Jesus comes come from? Nowhere. It can't happen. All people will either inherit eternal life in mortal bodies when Jesus comes or be cast into everlasting fire. Jesus did not allow for any other destiny for anyone when He comes, such as inheriting mortal life in a temporal earthly kingdom.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Can you tell me how you interpret the following passage.
2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Paul explicitly taught that when Jesus comes He will be "taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord". So, who are these people exactly that you think will survive His return and why exactly would they be allowed to survive? Obviously, believers will survive because we will be changed to put on bodily immortality at that time. But, who are these mortal unbelievers that you think will survive His return and why didn't Paul know anything about them? And why would Jesus not take vengeance on them when they would fit the description of those who Paul said Jesus will take vengeance on when He returns?
In Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus made it clear that those who inherit the kingdom when He returns will inherit "eternal life" (Matt 25:46) at that time. Are you suggesting that you believe that mortals will be inheriting "eternal life" in a temporal, thousand year kingdom when Jesus returns? If so, how can that make sense. Paul made it clear that those with mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 15:50). So, why do you have people with mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God?
Premils would have us believe that Paul is lying in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 and that Peter is lying in 2 Peter 3:10-12. Is this the game you want to play?
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