Connecting the dots = a pre-tribulation rapture.

[Taken]

yes,

Jesus returns the same way He left. In Acts 1 ...we get the account.
Jesus ascends.

How does Jesus return? Rev 19 speaks of Jesus riding a white horse....BUT....Jesus didn't leave riding a white horse.

This complicates things when looking at scripture because the "return" of Christ gets confusing when one tries to determine when Jesus returns on a white horse and when Jesus returns in the same way He left...which wasn't on a white horse.
That is Jesus returns twice...once in the same manner in which He ascended and then a second time on a white horse.

Christ the Lord Jesus is First Revealed “ON” Earth…
Sitting ON His Throne… Along with other Thrones…All “Judges”.

Christ is IN his Kingdom…
The Complete portion of Land God Gave to Abraham and his Righteous Descendants.
(Inheritance)
The Throne that Christ Jesus sits on IS the Everlasting Throne God Established… For king David and His Righteous Descendants.
( the multiple thrones… seems to have been added for Faithful to Christ Church fathers / Faithful Apostles, given judgement authority,)

Rev 20:
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[CrowCross]

Christ the Lord Jesus is First Revealed “ON” Earth…
Sitting ON His Throne… Along with other Thrones…All “Judges”.

Christ is IN his Kingdom…
The Complete portion of Land God Gave to Abraham and his Righteous Descendants.
(Inheritance)
The Throne that Christ Jesus sits on IS the Everlasting Throne God Established… For king David and His Righteous Descendants.
( the multiple thrones… seems to have been added for Faithful to Christ Church fathers / Faithful Apostles, given judgement authority,)

Rev 20:
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Glory to God,
Taken

Sorry....I'm not following your line of thought.

 

[David in NJ]

My answer is in this thread.

As i said, you can't even get the shape of the earth right....so why should I think you have eschatology right?

ANSWER MY QUESTION ABOUT JESUS NOT LEAVING ON A WHITE HORES.

Your blindness continues because.........

You are not centered on Christ,

if you were you would believe His words and the words of the Apostles.

 

[David in NJ]

Please send PM update.

Hi David…Thanks.
As is every Scriptural Book, Title, Chapter, Verse, a great Start… for Revealing tid-bits of Knowledge…That That Knowledge IS the Catalyst… to Stir MORE Questions, for MORE knowledge to be discovered.

Meaning… Terms are mentioned…
Church;
Saints, Brethren, holy Brethren;
Following;
Coming;
Wrath;
Etc.

How I study, is to read the Book, Title, Chapters, Verses… and Break down… which TERMS ( the What) Apply TO Whom, When and Why.

* To your First Point…
“The Coming of Christ”…
To my benefit, I find it necessary to Know…
Where Christ IS…
Where Christ is Coming FROM…
Where Christ IS Coming TO…
And for WHAT PURPOSE…

To THAT Point… my understanding IS:
Christ is Coming From WHERE He IS.
Christ IS:
Seated Next TO God.
God IS IN “Heaven” <—-> Singular Heaven.
Gods “Estate” Singular Heaven, Reserved For God Only..( not angels, not men)…
IS… The Heaven ABOVE the Heaven(s).

Thus…
THAT IS Where Christ Shall Come FROM.

Now consider…Where / What… Christ must pass Through / By…. When He Leaves Heaven Above the Heavens…

3rd Heaven?
Yes.
Does Christ Pause / Stop There?
No indication reveals a pause of stop there.
Does Anything indicate “They” in the 3rd Heaven “JOIN” / “Follow” Christ where He is going /Coming To?
Yes.

Who?
(under His Authority)…holy Angel Servants….Follow and Serve Christ.

Whose Estate IS the 3rd Heaven?
Holy Angels.

Must Christ “summon / call them “?
No

They Follow Him, where He Goes, and They Can Go.

Can they Go to The Heaven Above the Heavens?
No.

Can they Go to The Heavens Below the 3rd Heaven?
Yes.

When Christ IS coming From the Heaven Above the Heavens… And is Passing Through the 3rd Heaven…
Do they THEN Follow Christ?
Yes.

THEN, To Where (are they Going / Coming)…
To?…the 2nd Heaven?
Yes.
Do they (pause, stop) There?
No off hand indication, THEY pause or stop There.

THEN, To Where (are they Going / Coming) To? … the Lowest to Earth 1st Heaven?
Yes.
Do they (pause, stop) There?
Yes.
Why?
The Why, is greatly Detailed in Scriptural Knowledge…

It IS expressly Detailed…
Christs’ intent, purpose, for pausing / stopping in the First (lowest heaven above Earth)…per His Coming From the Heaven Above the Heaven(S).

As Well, it is expressly Detailed in Scripture…
*WHO, is summed From the Earth UP to Him.
*WHY, THEY only ARE summoned.
*WHEN (broadly) THEY ARE Summoned Up.
*HOW Long (broadly) it will Take the Summoned TO transport FROM Earth TO the 1st Lower Heaven.
*WHAT precisely the summoned SEE for the First Time.
*WHY the summoned CAN SEE, what they have NOT BEFORE seen.
*WHAT the summoned SHALL DO
There in the 1st Heaven.
*HOW LONG, the summoned Stay with Christ IN the 1st, lowest to Earth Heaven…
*AND…WHY.
*WHEN the summoned SHALL Return TO Earth…
*WITH WHOM…
*WHY…
*WHAT… they Shall then DO…back ON Earth.
*WHY…

By my perspective / understanding / This Knowledge is Paramount, to Know, Believe, Trust the Source, Be Committed…
To know where an individual mans OWN Standing IS, and IF an individual man HAS or HAS NOT… committed, to BE among THEM, and Accounted WITH “THEM” …

Christ the Lords “coming”… IS the same Way He Left Earth…
From Earth…
To 1st Lower Heaven…clouds
To 2nd Mid Heaven… a place (“having not yet been prepared” )for saved departed souls.
( AS Jesus noted, at His Return from Earth to Heaven He would prepare a place For Them…)
THEM (departed saved souls, “were” IN a comfort side of Hell, waiting For Christ to Descend / Come to Hell, Rescue them, And send them (saved souls) to a prepared place)… and
(They’re waiting There…Why?
Because Jesus is First in all things…
Meaning Jesus’ Soul HAD to Have Risen Up To Heaven… Before Their Saved souls Could Rise up to Heaven, TO Which Heaven?
(2nd Heaven).
* And Jesus Continued..To 3rd Heaven …holy Angels Estate / Stars
* And Jesus To The Heaven Above the Heaven(s), Gods Estate….Where He Was Before He Was Sent to Earth…
(IN a body God prepared for When He would Be on Earth).

Point… Christs “coming”… begins From Where He IS:
AND Ends When He “Returns (Feet Touch) TO Earth”.

What Occurs… Before His “COM-ING”…
AND
What Occurs … During His “COM- ING”
AND
What Occurs … AFTER His “RETURN”…

It Is Paramount Per each individuals “Standing”;
Non- Believer?
Following Believer in God?
Remain a believer?
Follower Who then Quit, Rejected God?
Following Believer in Christ?
Follower who remained Following Christ?
Follower Who then Quit, Rejected Christ?
Following Believer in something, but unsure What or Whom?
Following Believer IN God, Believes in Jesus’ Existence…but unsure about Belief in WHO Jesus IS?
Following Believer Who Committed Belief IN Christ?

FREEWILL of man’s Beliefs. Have Anciently, Historically, modernly… run the gambit… per each individual…

IT IS… precisely, WHAT / WHERE any mans individual STANDING (Heartful Belief IS) at the time of his “bodily death”…
Which Shall Determine…THAT man’s ETERNAL Fate.

It IS the Scriptural (bit by bit) Knowledge, by which ANY man…CAN, discover…WHAT Does, Will Apply to him… Based on his Own beliefs or lack thereof…And IF and WHEN he “commits to such beliefs.” ( or not).

I have read, studied the knowledge bit by bit, learned the Offerings, learned the differences between HOPE and ASSURANCE, learned;
What, How, When, Where, Why…my Choices, For my Standing WAS MADE, IS ESTABLISHED, IS IRREVOCABLE…
And What, When, Why…
Speaking for myself…
I presently… Have Tribulations and know With Whom…
I presently… Wait patiently, (Already with Him IN Spirit)…
Waiting…To Respond TO Christ the Lords summoning me ( wholly, body, soul, spirit ) TO Him, when He has come to the Lower 1st Heaven).

Glory to God,
Taken

#1 - The angels are in Heaven worshipping the LAMB in the midst of the throne = Matt 24:36 Rev chapter 5

#2 - Some angels are sent on assignments to earth = Daniel

#3 - Some angels are assigned to withstand satan and his angels = Revelation chapter 12

#4 - Angels with the LORD in Heaven will descend from Heaven = Revelation chapter 19

 

[ewq1938]

yes,

Jesus returns the same way He left. In Acts 1 ...we get the account.
Jesus ascends.

How does Jesus return? Rev 19 speaks of Jesus riding a white horse....BUT....Jesus didn't leave riding a white horse.

Jesus also left alone but returns with many. The prophecy does not say Jesus has to return in the exact way and conditions.

 

[Taken]

Sorry....I'm not following your line of thought.

First time Jesus is seen ON Earth…
Prior he is On a white cloud…on a white horse.

Jesus was ON a mountain when he was SEEN rising up up to the clouds out of sight.

Jesus (in the body as the Son of Man, so humans can SEE Him…)
And is See IS SEEN …
* sitting on a white cloud, Rev 14:14
* is Seen on a White horse, Rev 19:11
* is seen With a writing on clothing, Rv 19:16
* is Thrones… in His Kingdom ON Earth Rev.
20:11 - Rev 21:5 - Rev 22:1. Rev 22:3

This is future.

 

[Taken]

#1 - The angels are in Heaven worshipping the LAMB in the midst of the throne = Matt 24:36 Rev chapter 5

Yes… now

#2 - Some angels are sent on assignments to earth = Daniel

Yes… now

#3 - Some angels are assigned to withstand satan and his angels = Revelation chapter 12

Yes…now

#4 - Angels with the LORD in Heaven will descend from Heaven = Revelation chapter 19

Yes… Then.

No dispute. His angels go / serve as directed.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[David in NJ]

Yes… now

Yes… now

Yes…now

Yes… Then.

No dispute. His angels go / serve as directed.

Glory to God,
Taken

When does JESUS Return with His angels for the Gathering of His Elect?

 

[Taken]

When does JESUS Return with His angels to for the Gathering of His elect.

Backing up…
God Saves…
Jesus Saves… those God Gave Him.

Jesus Saves…Via the Lamb of God and they become MADE…Saved IN Christ…
Jesus Summons they IN Christ…to clouds…
They completed the “requirement”…
* Believe in God.
* Believe Jesus is the Christ.
* Confess True Heartful Belief.
* Bodily crucified with Jesus’ Body (satisfies One bodily death requirement, necessary BEFORE Salvation can be given)

They are Not the Elect, rather… members of “CHRIST’S church, called His Bride.
They Raptured, before Trib.

But, but, but… didn’t God Promise to save His Faithful “Elect”, Gods chosen? Yes…
Do they believe IN Jesus’ Existence?
Primarily Yes.
Do they Primarily Believe Jesus is their Christ Messiah? No (a few, called Messianic Jews Do Believe that.)

so what about the rest of the Faithful to God Jews… the ELECT?
They Suffer the first part of the Trib… the 7 Seals, and Wrath of the Lamb of God…
Because? They did not Believe He was the Savior…

After the Days of “Those Tribulations”( 7 Seals and Wrath of the Lamb)… many body’s become dead… where does their departed Soul Go?
Under the “altar”… a temp pause… why?

Rev 6:
[9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
[11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So the days of those Tribulation ends…(ie. 7 seals)

Next is the Trumps…(tribulations)… some Jews (elect saved) some not.
(Saving by God is happening, and a portion is The Devils Wrath… angry some are rejecting him… and they being (if found), killed.

Jews, Gentiles, dying bodily IN Belief… God shall save their soul… soul departs, goes to heaven…body remains on Earth…(until first Resurrection)

Men bodily dying in NOT Belief… their departed soul, not saved, sent to Hell.

Each must become bodily dead Before they can receive Salvation..
1 Cor 15: 36
( and why… OSAS stands)

The gathering of the Elect…
Matt 24:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Parallel…

Rev 14:
[14] And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
[15] And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
[16] And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
[17] And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
[18] And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

Is that helpful or off what you were asking?

 

[CrowCross]

Jesus also left alone but returns with many. The prophecy does not say Jesus has to return in the exact way and conditions.

Face-palm......there is no white horse when Jesus left. Come on ewg1938. Answer the question.

 

[CrowCross]

First time Jesus is seen ON Earth…
Prior he is On a white cloud…on a white horse.

Jesus was ON a mountain when he was SEEN rising up up to the clouds out of sight.

Jesus (in the body as the Son of Man, so humans can SEE Him…)
And is See IS SEEN …
* sitting on a white cloud, Rev 14:14
* is Seen on a White horse, Rev 19:11
* is seen With a writing on clothing, Rv 19:16
* is Thrones… in His Kingdom ON Earth Rev.
20:11 - Rev 21:5 - Rev 22:1. Rev 22:3

This is future.

Yes, it's future...so is the rapture and then 7 years later the Rev 19 return.

 

[jeffweeder]

Face-palm......there is no white horse when Jesus left.

When Jesus first promised to come back again in the Gospels, where does he refer to returning on a white horse???


Maybe He didn't think it was important mentioning.
So what important factors did he mention about his return.

He would return on the last day to raise us AND judge the others,
Heaven and earth would pass away. See Job 14
That he would return AFTER great tribulation.

Pretribs have completely taken their eyes off the ball and their ears from hearing his word regarding his promised coming to receive us.

 

[sondring7]

When Jesus first promised to come back again in the Gospels, where does he refer to returning on a white horse???


Maybe He didn't think it was important mentioning.
So what important factors did he mention about his return.

He would return on the last day to raise us AND judge the others,
Heaven and earth would pass away. See Job 14
That he would return AFTER great tribulation.

Pretribs have completely taken their eyes off the ball and their ears from hearing his word regarding his promised coming to receive us.

++++He would return on the last day to raise us AND judge the others,
"to raise us"
Do you believe that to be 1 Thess 4.16-17 ?
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[The Light]

When does JESUS Return with His angels for the Gathering of His Elect?

The gathering from heaven and earth occurs at the 6th seal, immediately after the great tribulation.

 

[The Light]

Yes, it's future...so is the rapture and then 7 years later the Rev 19 return.

Can you produce ANY scriptural evidence that shows that the rapture occurs BEFORE the 7 years begin.

Thanks.

 

[jeffweeder]

++++He would return on the last day to raise us AND judge the others,
"to raise us"
Do you believe that to be 1 Thess 4.16-17 ?
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Of course,

Starting from v15 shows you where Paul is getting his information.

15 For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are still alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede [into His presence] those [believers] who have fallen asleep [in death].

Was Paul pre or post trib??

His second letter to the Thessalonians makes the answer to that question very clear ,

2Thess 1
9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day and to be marveled at among all who have believed.

 

[ewq1938]

Face-palm......there is no white horse when Jesus left. Come on ewg1938. Answer the question.

A white horse is not needed when he left. The prophecy is only that he ascended up, and he will descend down. He can leave alone with no horse and return on a horse and with an army.

 

[Taken]

When Jesus first promised to come back again in the Gospels, where does he refer to returning on a white horse???


Maybe He didn't think it was important mentioning.
So what important factors did he mention about his return.

He would return on the last day to raise us AND judge the others,
Heaven and earth would pass away. See Job 14
That he would return AFTER great tribulation.

Pretribs have completely taken their eyes off the ball and their ears from hearing his word regarding his promised coming to receive us.

Hi Jeff…
@CrowCross

When Jesus “Returns”…

How “He Returns…”
Who Returns “With Him..”
His “position of Authority” - KING
Who “is On Earth”…
Who “Has access to the Earth”…
Things “He Does”, exercising His Authority.
Are paramount pieces of info

How “He Returns…”
*Glorified-Spirit & Body as Son of man”
* Why? So all: Spirit eyes / human eyes can See Him.

Who Returns With Him..”
*His holy Spirit Angel Servants
*His Church / Bride, Saved IN Christ

His “position of Authority” - KING
*Authority Over Who, What”?
*His Kingdom, Mortal (remnant) kingdoms, kings, All land, seas, air, His holy angels, demonic angels, the dead Bodys & living souls of any believers, AND non- believers,
Saved Departed souls in heaven, unsaved departed souls in hell

Who “is On Earth”… ^ same… except underlined.

Who “Has access to the Earth”…
^ same except underlined.

Things “He Does”, exercising His Authority.
* Appoints others to positions..
* Lawmaking … Ruler over His Kingdom, subjects, over mortal kings, kingdoms, land, air, seas.
* calls, divides, separates, raises up to heaven, calls down from heaven, sends down to hell, judges, sentences consequences, leads battle between warrior holy angels and demonic angels..
( point and notice of Him ON a White Leading Authority Battle Horse )


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Pretribs have completely taken their eyes off the ball and their ears from hearing his word regarding his promised coming to receive us.

Not so.

The “us” received “during the Trib”… are they having not been “saved VIA Christ Jesus’ Offering of salvation”.

During the Trib. Salvation, is Primarily and First Most… Regarding Gods Promise to “Israel”… to save His Righteous Chosen.
(And risen up, from Grave to face of the Earth, First Resurrection)

During the Trib. Gentiles, coming into Righteous Belief…
“having NOT been Saved IN Christ”… can as well … become Saved, by God.
(And risen up, from grave to face of the Earth, First Resurrection).

They having been Saved IN Christ, ARE already… fully Prepared (having already filled the Requirement) to be Risen up Glorified…
Before the Trib…
Thus are the ONLY “they / us /we”…
Who have NO requirement to suffer Any portion of…
Tribulations from Heaven…
(Seals, Trumps, Woes, Bowls)
Wraths of the Lamb…
wraths of the Devil…
wraths of God…

Which ^ those thing ARE expressly judgements Against…everyone ON Earth…For rejecting God for whether minor to major issue…

Because if one IS not WITH God…they by default ARE Against Him.

The pre-Trib Rapture is expressly “Removing all from the face of the Earth”… who ARE Fully, body, soul, spirit, Heartfully committed to the Lord God Almighty…and have no requirement to suffer the harsh and terrible effects that shall occur during the Trib & wrath sent From God in Heaven.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[jeffweeder]

Hi Jeff…
@CrowCross

Hi Taken

When Jesus “Returns”…



How “He Returns…”
*Glorified-Spirit & Body as Son of man”

I agree

* Why? So all: Spirit eyes / human eyes can See Him.

I agree

Who Returns With Him..”
*His holy Spirit Angel Servants
*His Church / Bride, Saved IN Christ

He comes with all the Holy Angels with him in the Glory of his Father. Not the glorified bride.

The souls of those believers who are under his care will then be raised, and along with the living saints will be glorified with a body like his glorified body, Marriage made in heaven.

His “position of Authority” - KING
*Authority Over Who, What”?

All authority in heaven and earth as judge being the glorified Son of man.

Acts 17
30 Therefore God overlooked and disregarded the former ages of ignorance; but now He commands all people everywhere to repent [that is, to change their old way of thinking, to regret their past sins, and to seek God’s purpose for their lives], 31 because He has set a day when He will judge the inhabited world in righteousness by a Man whom He has appointed and destined for that task, and He has provided credible proof to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”


That day is his second coming when the Lord comes to raise and glorify us the last day.

Welcome to the NHNE where only righteousness will dwell. Amen.