It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

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sondring7

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The earth is totally regenerated when Jesus comes.
a, b, c, d, all or none ?

a NEW REGENERATED here ?
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
b. NEW REGENERATED here ?
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
c. NEW REGENERATED here ?
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
d. NEW REGENERATED here ?
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
 

WPM

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a, b, c, d, all or none ?

a NEW REGENERATED here ?
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
b. NEW REGENERATED here ?
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
c. NEW REGENERATED here ?
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
d. NEW REGENERATED here ?
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

You are cherry picking the verses in the passage you want to talk about and are being selective in your questions. Read the narrative in full. See what is all happening at this climactic event. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4 confirms: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.”

Stop ignoring what is in blue.

I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib.
 
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WPM

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a, b, c, d, all or none ?

a NEW REGENERATED here ?
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
b. NEW REGENERATED here ?
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
c. NEW REGENERATED here ?
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
d. NEW REGENERATED here ?
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
2 Peter 3:3-13: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

When Peter states, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness” (2 Peter 3:9) he was (1) speaking of His climactic coming and (2) referring to “the last days scoffers” mocking the promise of the Lord’s return (2 Peter 3:3-4). He then goes on to show how these foolish individuals will be finally and totally destroyed along with this current earth (and the element and the heavens) at Christ’s coming (2 Peter 3:7). After, outlining the awful end of the wicked, Peter then turns to the believer and presents the great hope of the righteous, saying, “Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:13).

The coming of Christ therefore brings completely differing outcomes for these two diverse companies. Christ’s Advent in glory will witness the eternal banishment of all wickedness from off the face of the earth. A new earth – free of all sin, death, rebellion and the wicked – will then be gloriously ushered in.

The parousia is here also described as the day of God – the day which sees the end of the world. Therefore, we can safely assume, like Noah’s day, that the righteous shall be rescued first at the parousia of the Lord before the wicked are immediately and completely destroyed.
 
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sondring7

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2 Peter 3:3-13: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

When Peter states, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness” (2 Peter 3:9) he was (1) speaking of His climactic coming and (2) referring to “the last days scoffers” mocking the promise of the Lord’s return (2 Peter 3:3-4). He then goes on to show how these foolish individuals will be finally and totally destroyed along with this current earth (and the element and the heavens) at Christ’s coming (2 Peter 3:7). After, outlining the awful end of the wicked, Peter then turns to the believer and presents the great hope of the righteous, saying, “Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” (2 Peter 3:13).

The coming of Christ therefore brings completely differing outcomes for these two diverse companies. Christ’s Advent in glory will witness the eternal banishment of all wickedness from off the face of the earth. A new earth – free of all sin, death, rebellion and the wicked – will then be gloriously ushered in.

The parousia is here also described as the day of God – the day which sees the end of the world. Therefore, we can safely assume, like Noah’s day, that the righteous shall be rescued first at the parousia of the Lord before the wicked are immediately and completely destroyed.
So what is your answer ?
Was the earth NEW REGENERATED at :-
a, b, c, d, all or none ?

a NEW REGENERATED here ?
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
b. NEW REGENERATED here ?
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
c. NEW REGENERATED here ?
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
d. NEW REGENERATED here ?
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
 

WPM

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So what is your answer ?
Was the earth NEW REGENERATED at :-
a, b, c, d, all or none ?

a NEW REGENERATED here ?
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
b. NEW REGENERATED here ?
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
c. NEW REGENERATED here ?
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
d. NEW REGENERATED here ?
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
I refer you back to my last post. I can see why you refuse to address the inspired text. It exposes your error.
 

sondring7

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I refer you back to my last post. I can see why you refuse to address the inspired text. It exposes your error.
Was the earth NEW REGENERATED at a, b, c or d ?
Is the question too hard for you ?

a NEW REGENERATED here ?
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
b. NEW REGENERATED here ?
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
c. NEW REGENERATED here ?
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
d. NEW REGENERATED here ?
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
 

WPM

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Was the earth NEW REGENERATED at a, b, c or d ?
Is the question too hard for you ?

a NEW REGENERATED here ?
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
b. NEW REGENERATED here ?
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
c. NEW REGENERATED here ?
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
d. NEW REGENERATED here ?
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Does you mum know you are online again?

I am done with your avoidance and childishness.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Please notice the highlighted blue.

Let us look 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. The text declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).

· Where is your seven-year tribulation in this passage?
· Where are your survivors?
· How can there even be a possibility of survivors in the light of the climactic and wholesale destruction here?
Exactly. That passage clearly indicates that Christ will come both with and for His people at the same time. The ones who are with Him will be the souls of the dead in Christ and then what will happen first is that their bodies will be resurrected (the dead in Christ shall rise first) and then they, along with those who are alive and remain until Christ's second coming, will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. It couldn't be more clear and simple, yet pre-tribs still miss it. They try to say this passage describes when Jesus will come FOR his people and then 7 years later He comes with them. No, that is not taught anywhere in scripture. He will come with the souls of the dead in Christ. One event when He comes both with and for His people. That's it.

It's amazing to me when I see pre-tribs deny that 2 Thessalonians 1:10 relates to what will happen when the rapture occurs. Would they come to that conclusion if it wasn't for what is described in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 as happening on the same day? I highly doubt it.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

How can anyone think that the day when Jesus "shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" is not the same day that we will be caught up to meet Him "in the air"? It clearly will be that same day and what else will happen on that same day is that Jesus will take "vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord". There will not be a 7 year tribulation following the rapture, there will immediately be vengeance taken against all unbelievers after the rapture occurs. That is what Paul taught in 1 Thess 4:14-5:3 and 2 Thess 1:7-10. And that can be seen in Revelation 14:14-20 as well.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Does Text teach that the 1 Thess 4.17 cloud gathering of live & dead believers is part of the same journey down to solid earth by Jesus ?
Do you think the following will occur when what is described in 1 Thess 4:17 occurs? If not, why not?

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Op Note

As you can see from Pretrib responses here and elsewhere: Pretrib is an extra-biblical man-made doctrine that enjoys zero support in Scripture. It cannot be supported by other Scripture. It should therefore be abandoned by all Bible-believing Christians. Pretribbers have no warrant for their theory. That is all it is - an extra-biblical theory. It cannot be supported by hard Scripture.

The stages when engaging with Pretribs are (1) avoidance (2) ad hominem and (3) run for the exit.
It's the same pattern we have seen on forums like this for many years and it will never change. They are completely incapable of forming coherent arguments using scripture to back up their pretrib theory and that is a proven fact.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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+++ It happens when Jesus comes.
At a time AFTER 1 Thess 4.18 otherwise there would be no need to comfort one another if the earth was already new regenerated
The context of comforting one another with the words of 1 Thess 4:13-18 is that we have the hope of meeting Jesus "in the air" one day and then being with Him forever, unlike unbelievers who have no hope.

The earth will be renewed, resulting in the new earth, when Jesus comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night in the future, as Peter taught in 2 Peter 3:10-13. That will be on the same day described in 1 Thess 4:13-18. On the same day that we are caught up to meet Christ, sudden destruction will come upon unbelievers as a result of Christ's wrath and vengeance. That is what is taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:3 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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None of that addresses what is written in passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-13. You have no way of reconciling your beliefs with passages like those and many others. All you are able to do is post a meaningless diagram that you can't back up with scripture.
 

sondring7

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None of that addresses what is written in passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-13. You have no way of reconciling your beliefs with passages like those and many others. All you are able to do is post a meaningless diagram that you can't back up with scripture.
Whatever Si, continue on your merry way :)