The Case for a Post-Tribulation Second Coming

[Sel@h]

Seals are not events; they are just knowledge of what will happen at the end.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Seals are just the knowledge of what we need to know about the end times.

I don't know what you're talking about. How are you coming to this conclusion?

 

[Sel@h]

I don't know what you're talking about. How are you coming to this conclusion?

The Olivet Prophecy are the seals.

 

[Sel@h]

The Olivet Prophecy:

Matthew 24
Mark 13
Luke 21

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Olivet Prophecy are the seals.

There is an order to things that happen in the Olivet Discourse and Jesus referred to certain events there, so I don't see why you don't relate the seals to events. It makes no sense to have what is described in relation to the first seal as happening after the sounding of the fifth trumpet. Not that I believe the seal events all happen, followed by the trumpet events, followed by the vial/bowl events. I believe the seals, trumpets and vials/bowls are basically parallel to each other.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Revelation 6:2 "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

The rider of this white horse is Satan, in the role of the Antichrist. Satan will come first as the fake Christ, the Antichrist and he will ride and conquer the people of the entire earth.

Absolutely not! You are reading "fake Christ" into verse. The symbol of the horse is strength of battle, and the color white is of purity and righteousness. Thus this horse symbolizes God's righteousness as He goes forth with strength conquering and to conquer. Overcoming, and to overcome. Satan does not qualify because he cannot permanently conquer or overcome in righteousness. I don't believe that Satan could ever be symbolized in God's Word "as" a rider of a White horse at all. At best he could come "looking like" a righteous rider, but the verse does not say this because he never actually riding a white horse. This horse "is" a white horse. Christ! Which to me means the rider is riding in strength and righteousness to conquer. But why some people want to believe in their own speculations?

Job 6:26

• "Do ye imagine to reprove words, and the speeches of one that is desperate, which are as wind?"

..Good question.

Selah!

We see the first seal in detail in the 9th chapter. It takes place after the fifth trumpet sounds, Satan is the first “morning star” to come.

Huh? Hold on a minute. Show me the Scripture where Satan is identified as the Morning Star. I want chapter and verse—not speculation, not imaginative connections, and certainly not a prophetic theory imposed upon the text.

Revelation 22:16 explicitly identifies Jesus Christ as “the bright and morning star.” Meanwhile, Isaiah 14:12 uses the expression “Lucifer, son of the morning” in a passage addressing the king of Babylon. Where, exactly, does Scripture identify Satan as "the" Morning Star in the sense you are claiming?

You are making a serious theological assertion by connecting Satan to the first seal and then calling him the Morning Star. The burden is on you to demonstrate that interpretation from Scripture, not merely assert it as though it were an established biblical fact.

So, please, show us the actual passage that supports your claim. Let Scripture speak for itself. We do not need to invent identities and prophetic connections that the text itself does not establish.

This event will catch many Christians off-guard, for many tie themselves to the '"rapture doctrine" and will worship the Antichrist as the true Christ in ignorance. This is why the rapture doctrine is so dangerous—it ties its followers to the first Christ to come, who is the Antichrist!

Of course, the pretribulation rapture doctrine is dangerous. But so is your post-tribulation rapture doctrine! You may disagree about when the rapture occurs, but you are still operating under the same umbrella of premillennialism, sharing many of the same underlying assumptions about end-time events!

You argue that pretribulationists are in danger of being deceived by the Antichrist, yet you seem oblivious to the fact that your own post-tribulation framework shares much of the same prophetic system! You still have the same obsession with a future Antichrist, a literal seven-year tribulation, a physical world government, a physical mark of the beast, and a literal, earthly millennial kingdom.

Apparently, moving the rapture from before the tribulation to after it somehow makes the rest of the prophetic system correct? Oh please! That is quite a convenient way to avoid questioning the very assumptions you share with those you criticize!

The real issue is not merely when someone believes the rapture occurs. The deeper question is whether the entire prophetic framework is biblical in the first place. You can argue over the timing all day long, but if your foundational interpretation is mistaken, changing the rapture's schedule will not fix it. Sorry to disappoint you.

Perhaps instead of warning others about deception, you should first examine whether you have inherited the same premillennial assumptions you believe you have escaped. Scripture must judge our prophetic systems—not the other way around.

Different rapture schedules, same premillennial umbrella. Changing the timing does not automatically correct the theology.

Selah!

Here is the true MESSIAH riding in:

Revelation 19:11-16 (NKJV) 11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes [were] like a flame of fire, and on His head [were] many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He [was] clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on [His] robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Amen! The same is true of the White Horse in Revelation 6! He has been riding forth since Pentecost, advancing the gospel and conquering hearts through the power of His Word. It is the same White Horse and the same victorious King!

He began with ONE crown, signifying His kingship and authority established through His victory at the Cross. But in Revelation 19, He appears wearing many crowns, displaying His supreme authority as King of kings and Lord of lords. Those many crowns also remind us of the crowns His redeemed people will cast before Him, acknowledging that all honor, glory, and victory belong to Him alone!

He conquers, and He continues to conquer, spoiling His Elect from the kingdom of darkness. His kingdom advances, His elect are gathered, and His victory is made manifest through the preaching of the gospel. All glory belongs to Christ, the victorious King!

Selah!

 

[TribulationSigns]

The Olivet Prophecy are the seals.

Huh? What are you talking about?! Show us the chapter and verse where God has defined His Olivet Discourse as the seven seals?!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Let’s put it this way, plain and simple.

“Plain and simple”? Pphhttthhh! That would be refreshing, because based on the posts of yours I have been reading, I am not convinced you have established a sound biblical foundation for your claims, let alone explained them plainly and simply.

Declaring something “plain and simple” does not make it biblical. The question is not how confidently you present your interpretation, but whether you can substantiate it with Scripture in its proper context.

You claimed that Satan is the Morning Star and connected the first seal to the events of the fifth trumpet in Revelation 9. Those are specific prophetic claims, not self-evident biblical facts. So, rather than telling us to put it “plain and simple,” why not demonstrate your interpretation from the actual text?

Remember, Scripture commands us to “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21, KJV).

So let us see the biblical evidence, chapter and verse, properly interpreted in context. Confidence is not exegesis, assertion is not proof, and repeating a prophetic theory does not make it sound doctrine. If your interpretation is truly as plain and simple as you claim, then demonstrating it from Scripture should be no problem at all.

Selah!

Satan comes before Jesus. Satan comes at the 6th trump; Jesus comes at the 7th trump.

Seals are just the knowledge of what we need to know about the end times.

Humm...“Seals are just the knowledge of what we need to know about the end times”? Seriously? Is that what you believe the seven seals are about? Or is this simply your way of dismissing their spiritual significance because you have not discerned what they actually reveal?

The question is not merely whether you possess knowledge of the seals, but whether you have the spiritual discernment to understand what they signify. There is a profound difference between reading the words of Revelation and understanding the spiritual realities those words reveal.

The seven seals are not simply a collection of end-times information for us to memorize and arrange into a prophetic timeline...based on current world events, etc. They are part of the revelation of Jesus Christ, the Lamb who alone is worthy to open the book and its seals (Revelation 5:1–10). Have you considered what that means?

Jesus said, “Who hath ears to hear, let him hear” (Matthew 13:9, KJV). The issue has never been merely having the words in front of your eyes. It is whether you have ears to hear and eyes to see what God has revealed.

So, before reducing the seven seals to “just the knowledge we need to know about the end times,” perhaps you should first ask yourself whether you have rightly discerned their spiritual meaning. Knowing the terminology of Revelation is one thing; understanding its testimony concerning Christ and His kingdom is another.

Do you understand what the seals reveal, or have you simply assigned them a place in your end-times charts like Douggg is doing here? That is the question you need to answer.

Selah!

 

[Sel@h]

@TribulationSigns

oooh….tough guy

 

[Taken]

The gathering of believers to Christ will only occur after the Antichrist has reigned.

The popular "Rapture" theory, specifically the Pre-tribulation view, suggests that Christ will remove the church before the tribulation begins. This view claims believers will be whisked away to safety, avoiding all the fear and chaos of the Antichrist. However, this idea lacks biblical support and suggests a cowardice inconsistent with the faith of those who have died defending the truth. Our protection comes from God, our Rock, not from physical hiding places like caves in Petra.

Scripture is clear that the return of Christ happens at the last trump, after the "man of sin" is revealed.

While some theorists claim that the "restrainer" mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 is the Holy Spirit being removed during a Rapture, this is very poor scholarship.

Remember, Jesus Christ IS NOT returning until …

The “coming” of Christ…is one event.
The “return” of Christ…..is another event.

The Saved Church “gathering” before the Trib…..is one event.

They Sav-ed during the Trib…Their “gathering” …is another event.

The Remnant of “believing mortals”…
Neither Saved…
Neither Mortally Killed / Dead…
is another event.

A Great Horrific Series of Tribulation(S) Event(S) Shall Occur…

* Some Shall (the Church) Escape / Be Delivered From all parts of the Trib.
(Rapture) Gathering.

* Some Shall Experience parts of the Trib, Die, then Saved.
(First Resurrection) Gathering.

* Some Shall Experience all parts of the Trib, and turn to Belief, and escape mortal death, During the Trib.
Mortal (Remnant)
live, marry, reproduce, establish, cities, nations, governments, kings, die, next generation repeats…
During Christs 1,000, yr reign.
(some First Resurrection / Some Second Resurrection ) Gathering.

* Some Shall Experience all parts of the Trib,
And still reject God and Be Killed, last phase of the Trib series.
(Second Resurrection ) Gathering.

*Not all believe the Same.
*Not all establish or “commit” to their beliefs at the same time.
*God’s Word Has Revealed…”the Outcome”For Every persons Belief…AND according to WHEN they….Chose to establish / Commit to their Belief….or Not.

They who ARE the “Church”… HAVE FULFILLED their Express requirement…
TO BE Completely Excepted From Any Participation In Tribulation and Wrath sent down From Heaven.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Sel@h]

Thanks for sharing your views, @Taken.

 

[shepherdsword]

The Olivet Prophecy:

Matthew 24
Mark 13
Luke 21

I saw this years ago
The seven seals and how they relate to mat 24:

1)white horse rider(Mt 24 "many shall come in my name saying I am anointed(Christ)
2)red horse rider who takes peace from the earth(wars and rumors of wars)
3)Black horse rider who measures food (famines in different places)
4)Pale(Green) horse rider is death and hell follows kills 1/3 with disease and war(pestilances)
5)Under the alter those who died for Jesus(they shall deliver you up)
6)earthquakes,sun becomes black,moon becomes as blood(compare with Mt 24)Isa 2:19 men hiding in the holes of the rocks and in caves(joel 2:31)
7)silence in heaven(because Jesus is returning with his angels and heaven is empty)

 

[Taken]

You said Satan comes at the 6th trump....I showed you where I believe it is the first seal.
Do you agree or disagree.

@Sel@h
Satan is Already ON Earth.
The Opening of the Seals…is TWO Fold Revealing…
1) Satan’s power “increased”…
2) The Lambs Wrath “revealed”…

“A” human man, Shall be “recognized” being in the position of “A” world “executive Leader”…
* Such man “Shall become mortally wounded”…then announced mortally Dead…
* It is That man’s Body, Satan Shall enter, and that mans Body, Be seen by the World… As having Mortally Died AND then “Resumed Living”…
And… thus Declare Himself God.

WHO in these Days, sits in a position as “ a type “ of “World Leader”?

The “United Nations” is an organization, of Nearly Every Nation (193 Nations)of this World Having “membership” in “the UNITED NATIONS”.
( Exceptions? Not Members?
* Vatican City
* Palestine
* Cook Islands
* Taiwan
* Kosovo
* Sahrawi /Arab
* Niue
* Abkhazia
* Northern Cyrpus
* Somalia
* Moldova
? Ukraine

Every six months a “new President” OF the UN is “elected” by the members OF the UN…
My Perspective is it will be the sitting President of The UN…will suffer a mortal wound, die, and which will be the body Satan will enter, reveal the appearance of resumed living, and announce himself… both World leader and god.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

I saw this years ago
The seven seals and how they relate to mat 24:

1)white horse rider(Mt 24 "many shall come in my name saying I am anointed(Christ)
2)red horse rider who takes peace from the earth(wars and rumors of wars)
3)Black horse rider who measures food (famines in different places)
4)Pale(Green) horse rider is death and hell follows kills 1/3 with disease and war(pestilances)
5)Under the alter thos who died for Jesus(they shall deliver you up)
6)eathquakes,sun becomes black,moon becomes as blood(compare with Mt 24)Isa 2:19 men hiding in the holes of the rocks and in caves(joel 2:31)
7)silence in heaven(because Jesus is returning with his angels and heaven is empty)

Jesus “coming”…First requires to Know Where He IS…
And WHERE each “place” He passes through”…
To Literally “RETURN” / Touch, BE “ON” Earth.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Sel@h]

Thanks for the participation, everyone. Looks like we have differing understandings. Lord help us.

 

[CrowCross]

I agree.

Revelation 6:2 "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

The rider of this white horse is Satan, in the role of the Antichrist. Satan will come first as the fake Christ, the Antichrist and he will ride and conquer the people of the entire earth.

We see the first seal in detail in the 9th chapter. It takes place after the fifth trumpet sounds,

What???? How did you determine that?

Satan is the first “morning star” to come. This event will catch many Christians off-guard, for many tie themselves to the '"rapture doctrine" and will worship the Antichrist as the true Christ in ignorance. This is why the rapture doctrine is so dangerous—it ties its followers to the first Christ to come, who is the Antichrist!

Not sure I'm following why biblical rapture doctrine is dangerous.

Here is the true MESSIAH riding in:

Revelation 19:11-16 (NKJV) 11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes [were] like a flame of fire, and on His head [were] many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He [was] clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on [His] robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

One thing you might notice is Acts 1 where Jesus ascended....after the ascension the angels said...Acts 1:11 “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

This description in Acts 1 is completely different than the Rev 19 description. That is Jesus returns twice....once like He left then a second time as per Rev 19.

 

[CrowCross]

My Perspective is it will be the sitting President of The UN…will suffer a mortal wound, die, and which will be the body Satan will enter, reveal the appearance of resumed living, and announce himself… both World leader and god.

Interesting theory.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Thanks for the participation, everyone. Looks like we have differing understandings. Lord help us.

Precious friend, glad to be of assistance

imho, different understanding = God's Great GRACE Departure!

Lord Jesus, Please Help us. Amen.

 

[Sel@h]

What???? How did you determine that?

Not sure I'm following why biblical rapture doctrine is dangerous.

One thing you might notice is Acts 1 where Jesus ascended....after the ascension the angels said...Acts 1:11 “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

This description in Acts 1 is completely different than the Rev 19 description. That is Jesus returns twice....once like He left then a second time as per Rev 19.

I’m not sure what you’re saying regarding Acts 1. There are only two advents of our Lord Jesus Christ—the first, when he came as a babe in Bethlehem, the second when He returns as King of kings and Lord of lords.

 

[CrowCross]

I’m not sure what you’re saying regarding Acts 1. There are only two advents of our Lord Jesus Christ—the first, when he came as a babe in Bethlehem, the second when He returns as King of kings and Lord of lords.

I don't see it that way.
Acts says Jesus will return in the same way He left....The return in Rev 19 is nothing like the way Jesus left.
For instance Jesus returns riding a white horse....and didn't leave riding a white horse.

This supports a pre-trib return at the rapture and not a single return after the end of the tribulation.