Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[1stCenturyLady]

Except this isn't consistent with the OT Law upon which you base your division of sins. Fully intentional sins could still be forgiven.

That's because they had a Day of Atonement sacrifices every year, but the sin remained year after year. So they would have to keep making yearly sacrifices. The New Covenant is different. Jesus takes away our sin once for all past sins unto death from our old sin nature Paul called the old man, and continuously for unintentional sins while walking in the Spirit. Follow your conscience where the Spirit writes God's laws and empowers us to never commit willful sins unto death again as there is no more sacrifice. 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Hebrews 10:26-31.

That is why you do not pray for that person. 1 John 5:16-17 A person who has been born again of the Spirit, must obey Paul's warning to never quench the Spirit. It may lead to apostasy.

 

[amigo de christo]

Don't you know that you and epi are both saying the same thing? Epi is not talking about faith in Jesus and Allah as you implied. The difference is you teach what to believe, and epi teaches how. I am a teacher of how also.

you really beleive that dont you . No mam impossible to buy for me .
Epi does not beleive as you think he does sister . No man continually comes after a man
That reminds the church about first having to have faith in JESUS , to believe on JESUS .
Then goes after him for preaching to an athiest .
EPI beleives inclusivism . not the gospel , but inclusivism . And you are so tied to him .
But years ago you think God told you to be a teacher . So i cant fix that and i cannot fix this for you either .
Pride will run its course until it destroyes you at the end . Unless YOU do something about it .

 

[amigo de christo]

No. I never said it was. Perfection is the goal.

If perfection is the goal the inclusivity will never be the answer .
Not saying you believe it . but epi does . And you all need to see for yourselves
exactly what it teaches .
I seen anti christ all over it . But i do a gree with you sister , this walk i also see in many
on the hyper grace , nar realm and etc
is a walk that has ZERO power because it also like inclusivitiy has ZERO BELEIF in the one TRUE JESUS
IF ye follow the SPIRIT ye would not fullfill the lusts of the f lesh .
And if one believes NOT that JESUS IS THE CHRIST , SON OF GOD
that HE was crucified for our sins and that HE was raised again
THEY HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT and are not BORN again either .
YOU see con trary to the inclusivist theology
UNBELIVERS are not FOLLOWING JESUS , THE SPIRIT . but inclusivist say otherwise .
That teaching states , a muslim , buddiset , or any other
is indeed FOLLOWING CHRIST , does indeed have the SPIRIT at work
EVEN IF they follow that mess , SO LONG as they are following JESUS teachings
THE ONLY problem with that mess is , IT IS A LIE .
You see NO MAN by THIS HOLY SPIRIT would ever have called JESUS acccursed . AS ALL THEM FALSE RELIGONS DO
oh yes as all atheist do as well .
AND IF ONE HAD THIS HOLY SPIRIT , GUESS what they would b e calling JESUS .
LORD . for by the SPIRIT they call hiM LORD . not budda and good works , not muhammed and good works
BUT JESUS LORD . And there it is for all to see .
You inclusvists like pope franics and a heap of others believe A LIE sister .
And that lie of theirs DOES NOT glorify and honor the SON at all .
IT rather says , HEY it dont matter if they beleive . ONLY IT DOES MATTER .
cause unbeleif in JESUS , gives him NO HONOR FOR what HE DID
and not only that IT does call GOD a liar .
And yes , cliaming to beleive on JESUS and yet walking in sin and following a jesus okay with sins
BE JUST AS BAD . but they too are also running right into the same inclusvity .
You see a delusion has been sent . SENT to the false religoins , sent to christendom and sent to the world .
And all who actually rejected the LOVE of the TRUTH , Oh they gonna buy the lie all right .

 

[Episkopos]

Being sinless and then going onto perfection are biblical. If Jesus expected it, I believe it. You can have the last word about it if you wish. If someone doesn't want to believe perfection is possible, I don't wish to twist their arm about it.

We can't force people to have faith.

 

[sondring7]

1 John 5:16-17 is about praying for each other (who claim to be Christians). If you are thinking it is a physical death like suicide, you're wrong. So what sins would a brother commit and still be alive that we are commanded not to pray for them? Name a sin 'not unto death.'

+++Name a sin 'not unto death.'
1 John 5:16 states there are :)
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death,

 

[JimKnox]

I don't doubt it. Most Protestant churches, except through John Wesley, have their beginning doctrine from either John Calvin or Martin Luther. If that's all you heard, then you need to stay and leave the darkness to those who began it.

John Wesley was Anglican; which is one of Rome's illegitimate daughters.
Luther (a Roman) and Calvin (a Roman).
All were of the same corrupted fruit of the tree of Romanism. Therefore, any fruit they produced was equally corrupt. It is no great surprise then, that your doctrine has that same smell of Sulphur.

 

[sondring7]

That's because they had a Day of Atonement sacrifices every year, but the sin remained year after year. So they would have to keep making yearly sacrifices. The New Covenant is different. Jesus takes away our sin once for all past sins unto death from our old sin nature Paul called the old man, and continuously for unintentional sins while walking in the Spirit. Follow your conscience where the Spirit writes God's laws and empowers us to never commit willful sins unto death again as there is no more sacrifice. 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Hebrews 10:26-31.

That is why you do not pray for that person. 1 John 5:16-17 A person who has been born again of the Spirit, must obey Paul's warning to never quench the Spirit. It may lead to apostasy.

+++must obey Paul's warning to never quench the Spirit
Else risk becoming UNsealed ??
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
In that case the verse should read :-
ye are sealed MAYBE unto the day of redemption.

Please list where Paul teaches that :)

 

[Episkopos]

+++must obey Paul's warning to never quench the Spirit
Else risk becoming UNsealed ??
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
In that case the verse should read :-
ye are sealed MAYBE unto the day of redemption.

Please list where Paul teaches that :)

I think you are assuming that sealing means you have hit the eternal jackpot whereas it means you will be dealt with personally by the Lord. It is a fearful thing to come under the intense scrutiny of God.

 

[amigo de christo]

We can't force people to have faith.

that is true epi . we cannot FORCE one to beleive and have faith in Christ .
Be we sure can tell one of the absolute dire need to repent and to beleive on JESUS the CHRIST .
And we ought never call one who d oes an extremist .

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

There is no flesh to it.

What accomplishing something by the flesh means is trying to achieve a spiritual end by fleshly means. That's what trying to be saved by works of the law/obedience is. That's a person trying to achieve a spiritual goal through fleshly means. That's what the Galatians were doing wrong. They started out good by the Spirit but then felt compelled to finish in the power of fleshly effort. It's the false gospel of starting out in the Spirit through faith in Christ's forgiveness, but then thinking it is your obedience that makes you a saved person.

It is all Spirit who works through our conscience.

That is true of genuine works of faith, spurred on and motivated by gratitude for the the mercy of God you have received in the forgiveness of your sin.

That is not true of works that are motivated by the false thinking that it is by the righteousness of your obedience that you become a saved person. The Spirit is no where involved in that kind of false gospel. That is the effort of the flesh trying to fulfill the promise of God. Like how Abraham went into Hagar thinking that was how God was going to fulfill his promise.

You do what comes naturally.

No, sin is what comes 'naturally'. The things of the Spirit are what are unnatural to flesh and blood and which must be motivated and produced by the Spirit, not the flesh. Nothing good comes from the flesh.

Works is doing something in opposition to your nature, therefore, is the opposite of doing what comes naturally. It is forced. See the difference?

No, 'works' in the context of not being declared righteous by works of the law means it is not by the effort of your flesh in the performance of the requirements of God that you become spiritual. You do the righteous works of the law because you have become a spiritual creation. Faith upholds the law, but it is not by the upholding of that law that you become spiritual. That's the sin of finishing by the flesh what God has accomplished in you by the Spirit, through faith in his forgiveness.

 

[MostlyConfused]

The good we embrace can become the enemy of the perfect.

Yes, I’ve seen that. Yes. He seems to eventually take us to a place where we can and will make a choice to settle on one or actively choose the other. This is, I think, the place of truly counting the cost. It doesn’t mean you will be chosen I guess. But it means you…give up the good in the hope of the better?

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, I’ve seen that. Yes. He seems to eventually take us to a place where we can and will make a choice to settle on one or actively choose the other. This is, I think, the place of truly counting the cost. It doesn’t mean you will be chosen I guess. But it means you…give up the good in the hope of the better?

IOW don't push righteousness in the face of holiness. Big mistake.

 

[MostlyConfused]

IOW don't push righteousness in the face of holiness. Big mistake.

That’s a good way to put it…

 

[Episkopos]

What accomplishing something by the flesh means is trying to achieve a spiritual end by fleshly means. That's what trying to be saved by works of the law/obedience is. That's a person trying to achieve a spiritual goal through fleshly means. That's what the Galatians were doing wrong. They started out good by the Spirit but then felt compelled to finish in the power of fleshly effort. It's the false gospel of starting out in the Spirit through faith in Christ's forgiveness, but then thinking it is your obedience that makes you a saved person.

A few glaring errors here. You start out with a good logic. Spiritual attainment is not by human means. I think we all agree on that. But then you turn the argument against obedience as if that was the same as trying to be perfected spiritually by some other means rather than...what WE do in RESPONSE to the spiritual endowment.

So you are confusing holiness with righteousness as all evangelical types do...to the destruction of BOTH.

A person who does righteousness is not trying to be holy. They are merely fulfilling the commandment to love others. Do you realize that there are TWO main commandments???? One does not cancel the other as you suggest. They work together or NOT AT ALL.

Loving others is not a false attempt at holiness. Only a VERY VERY indoctrinated evangelical would think that. No, the Galatians were using the law of Moses for holiness purposes.

That is true of genuine works of faith, spurred on and motivated by gratitude for the the mercy of God you have received in the forgiveness of your sin.

This is exactly what you are speaking against earlier.

1. Being forgiven sins and showing gratitude IS by our own works. Being motivated by gratitude is NOT holiness. It is righteousness.

That is not true of works that are motivated by the false thinking that it is by the righteousness of your obedience that you become a saved person.

God is looking for righteousness in us. We are either righteous or unrighteous...there is no middle ground. It is indeed by righteousness that we are saved...that we INHERIT life. The unrighteous are cast away.

Why can't people read the bible with any kind of understanding of such simple things?

The Spirit is no where involved in that kind of false gospel. That is the effort of the flesh trying to fulfill the promise of God. Like how Abraham went into Hagar thinking that was how God was going to fulfill his promise.

Doing an Ismael is an entirely different matter...trying to fulfill God's promise by making things happen by human effort.. You are confusing that with the righteous Samaritan who loved his fellow man.

You are the one who is confusing holiness and human effort.

No, sin is what comes 'naturally'. The things of the Spirit are what are unnatural to flesh and blood and which must be motivated and produced by the Spirit, not the flesh. Nothing good comes from the flesh.

The flesh is tainted with sin...and is useless for holiness. But not so for righteousness. There is no righteous one that doesn't sin. Yet they are still righteous in God's eyes. Read the bible.

The criteria for righteousness is NOT sinlessness. That is the criteria for HOLINESS...which only God can provide the power for.

No, 'works' in the context of not being declared righteous by works of the law means it is not by the effort of your flesh in the performance of the requirements of God that you become spiritual. You do the righteous works of the law because you have become a spiritual creation.

Not so....

There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Faith upholds the law, but it is not by the upholding of that law that you become spiritual. That's the sin of finishing by the flesh what God has accomplished in you by the Spirit, through faith in his forgiveness.

This is backward logic. You are not to put faith in your salvation or forgiveness....but in God. All evangelicals do this...they trust in THEIR salvation...not the Lord Himself. So they are turning something spiritual into the religious carnality of a self-serving belief system.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

There is no righteous one that doesn't sin. Yet they are still righteous in God's eyes.

You are referring to the righteousness that is credited to a person apart from their righteous doings. Explain this to 1stCenturyLady. She challenged that truth in a post to me and I just haven't gotten to it yet.

The error that many make is they do not realize that the righteousness God credits to them when they believe his promise of a Son is more than able to qualify them to enter into the kingdom. They think you must add the righteousness of your works in order to be righteous enough to enter in.

They do not realize that it is God's forgiveness that qualifies you to enter in. That doesn't mean you don't have live holy and upright. It means it is not by the righteousness of your holy behavior that you are made righteous enough to enter into the kingdom. You would indeed have to be a perfect sinless person to get in on that basis. That means no one gets in on that basis. That's why you can only become a saved person by the grace and mercy of God's forgiveness, not your works.

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes, I’ve seen that. Yes. He seems to eventually take us to a place where we can and will make a choice to settle on one or actively choose the other. This is, I think, the place of truly counting the cost. It doesn’t mean you will be chosen I guess. But it means you…give up the good in the hope of the better?

Good corn of wheat falling to the ground to die in order to produce a crop. As long as one isn't doing it by way of will worship or mental religious assent to a theology, but is being led there by the Lord. (The flesh profits nothing and having begun in the spirit nobody is going to now be perfected by the flesh.)

 

[amigo de christo]

You are referring to the righteousness that is credited to a person apart from their righteous doings. Explain this to 1stCenturyLady. She challenged that truth in a post to me and I just haven't gotten to it yet.

The error that many make is they do not realize that the righteousness God credits to them when they believe his promise of a Son is more than able to qualify them to enter into the kingdom. They think you must add the righteousness of your works in order to be righteous enough to enter in.

They do not realize that it is God's forgiveness that qualifies you to enter in. That doesn't mean you don't have live holy and upright. It means it is not by the righteousness of your holy behavior that you are made righteous enough to enter into the kingdom. You would indeed have to be a perfect sinless person to get in on that basis. That means no one gets in on that basis. That's why you can only become a saved person by the grace and mercy of God's forgiveness, not your works.

For their is only one work required . to BELEIVE ON HE whom GOD did send .
But LORD what might we do that we might work the WORKS OF GOD .
THIS is the work of GOD that YE BELIEVE on HE whom GOD DID SEND .
and then after BELEIVING On HIM they can walk in righteousness by the POWER of the SPIRIT within them .
but mark my words well my friend .
ANY MAN who makes void the dire necessity to have to FIRST beleive on JESUS ,
they bring us a FALSE GOSPEL known as inclusivity . And a deadly one that is .
IT has lied to them all . cliaming any man can walk by the SPIRIT and even is walking by the Spirit
if even THEY BELIEVED NOT ON JESUS , so long as they are keeping his teachings .
KINDA ODD dont you think .
FOR by THE SPIRIT would no man have called JESUS accursed . AS ALL FALSE RELIGONS and atheist do .
And if one h ad THE HOLY SPIRIT they would have called HIM LORD .
never follow a gospel that allows unbelief to remain upon one . That is a false g ospel indeed my friend .
And one more thing
LET us not do as the hyper gracers , who though th ey DO claim to beleive on HIM
DO NOT beleive all his w ords and rather follows a jesus that pleases man and their flesh . cause that one aint JESUS
and thus that one cannot save .

 

[amigo de christo]

Good corn of wheat falling to the ground to die in order to produce a crop. As long as one isn't doing it by way of a wilful worship or mental religious assent to a theology, but is being led there by the Lord. (The flesh profits nothing and having begun in the spirit nobody is going to now be perfected by the flesh.)

just a quick reminder to us all . WHEN JESUS spoke of that seed , HE SPOKE Of himself
from when he would have to die and buried and then from whence the seed , AKA JESUS
would spring forth into a massive tree that contains ALL who do beleive on him and they will bear fruit
BY HIM . that seed was and is JESUS .
SO to the trenches . cause you are spot on right , THE FLESH PROFITS Nothing and those who may have begun in the spirit
will NEVER be perfected by the flesh , in fact they will fall FROM grace if so they THINK they can be perfected by the flesh .

 

[amigo de christo]

Good corn of wheat falling to the ground to die in order to produce a crop. As long as one isn't doing it by way of a wilful worship or mental religious assent to a theology, but is being led there by the Lord. (The flesh profits nothing and having begun in the spirit nobody is going to now be perfected by the flesh.)

For i am crucified with Christ and is no longer i that live but Christ that lives in me by Faith .
And just like as we are dead with him so too shall we live with him . The power of the ressurection
that giveth new life . The body of sins crucified with him on that tree . We simply are not to live by the flesh
but by the SPIRIT .
For he who lives after the flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption
but he who lives by the SPIRIT shall of the SPIRIT reap LIFE EVERLASTING .
TO the trenches . FOR IT IS JESUS we shall POINT TOO SISTER and not UNBELIEF .
to not beleive HE IS the CHRIST and was crucified for our sins and raised again
IS UNBELEIF
and to not believe his teachings , IS ALSO UNBELEIF in him and it too denies Him .
Some preach a false lip service faith
and others like epi preach NO BELEIF is even required as at most they only bring his teachings
and yet claims we do not beleive his teachings . And yet its he who beleives not all JESUS teachings .
FOR JESUS himself also made it very darn clear ONE MUST Absolutely believe on HIM .
And on all things he would teach to observe them . a false gospel is deadly sister .
and sadly we have many who now teach and beleive a false inclusive gospel .

 

[Lizbeth]

The flesh is tainted with sin...and is useless for holiness. But not so for righteousness. There is no righteous one that doesn't sin. Yet they are still righteous in God's eyes. Read the bible.

The criteria for righteousness is NOT sinlessness. That is the criteria for HOLINESS...which only God can provide the power for.

So where it says "The flesh profits nothing" in the bible is just a clerical error then...? And where its says "Having begun in the spirit......."...? We sure do differ on how one is made righteous. It is by the grace of God, through faith...not of our own. But I agree it doesn't necessarily mean one is walking sinlessly.

Not so....

There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Righteous because they had faith in God......and that was because they were first known, called and chosen by Him to be the parents of John the Baptist. Like Abraham who had faith had also been chosen and called out from his people. It is not good to glorify man.