Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

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Episkopos

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If what you are referring to is the idea that human righteousness is esteemed by God—as I am not fully sure what you mean given your usual abbreviated and obscure wording—the claim that "Human righteousness is by the glory of men" is not accurate. Scripture clearly teaches that believers are not to possess a righteousness of their own derived from the law or human effort, but instead the righteousness that comes from God through faith in Christ.

You are wrong of course. You are mixing standards here. There is a human righteousness based on what a human can do...otherwise God would not have given us laws. AND there would be no one called righteous in the bible who was not a Christian. But we who read the bible know that MANY people are called righteous by God before Christ.

What you are not understanding is that no flesh can JUSTIFY themselves for any reason before the Lord.

And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified. Ps 143:2


And that means you can't justify yourself either for your beliefs about Jesus.



And the glory of men is recorded in revelation among the saved righteous of the nations...

And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. Rev 21

Whose honour and glory? The nations.

The phrase 'glory to glory' describes the ongoing sanctification process outlined in 2 Corinthians 3:18, in which believers are being transformed into the image of Christ; this applies to those who have a personal relationship with God through the Spirit given by His Son.

There is no sanctification process. It is digital...one is either holy or not holy. No one is partially holy.
Glory to glory means the glory of temporal men in what we can do .... to the glory of God and what He can do.
 
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amigo de christo

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You are wrong of course. You are mixing standards here. There is a human righteousness based on what a human can do...otherwise God would not have given us laws. AND there would be no one called righteous in the bible who was not a Christian. But we who read the bible know that MANY people are called righteous by God before Christ.

What you are not understanding is that no flesh can JUSTIFY themselves for any reason before the Lord.

And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified. Ps 143:2


And that means you can't justify yourself either for your beliefs about Jesus.



And the glory of men is recorded in revelation among the saved righteous of the nations...

And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. Rev 21

Whose honour and glory? The nations.



There is no sanctification process. It is digital...one is either holy or not holy. No one is partially holy.

Glory to glory means the glory of temporal men in what we can do .... to the glory of God and what He can do.
There is no sanctification process. It is digital...one is either holy or not holy.
Did you say digital . now what an interesting word epi .
DIGITAL .
Guess you wont have problems with someth ing else that is digital that determin es WHO is holy and WHO is not holy .
Digital . very odd you should use such a word epi . v ery odd indeed .
Good heaven bud you are being prepared for the great crusades phase .
And bleieve me when i say AI will surely sit over a DIGITAL no buy no sell system .
And guess what epi .
ANYONE that AI deems as not inclusive , gets routed to a data base .
And then routed to local police station
and then they show up and cart the one who was deemed by THE DIGITAL SYSTEM as non inclusive
to a camp . Now that is so odd you used the word DIGITAL epi .
 

Episkopos

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There is no sanctification process. It is digital...one is either holy or not holy.
Did you say digital . now what an interesting word epi .
DIGITAL .
Guess you wont have problems with someth ing else that is digital that determin es WHO is holy and WHO is not holy .
Digital . very odd you should use such a word epi . v ery odd indeed .
Good heaven bud you are being prepared for the great crusades phase .
And bleieve me when i say AI will surely sit over a DIGITAL no buy no sell system .
And guess what epi .
ANYONE that AI deems as not inclusive , gets routed to a data base .
And then routed to local police station
and then they show up and cart the one who was deemed by THE DIGITAL SYSTEM as non inclusive
to a camp . Now that is so odd you used the word DIGITAL epi .
I think the pin-ball machine that is your mind just tilted.
 

amigo de christo

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I think the pin-ball machine that is your mind just tilted.
well it was darn ODD you using that word epi .
digital . my hind foot .
why on earth would you use that word like that .
Not to mention you sure do preach a false inclusive gospel .
that alone has me very very worried for you .
I just bet you are waiting on a huge awaking . and i just bet
you will think it is the awakening when jews , muslims , christains and all the world religoins
are standing in unity and in unison all praying to , What they THINK IS GOD for world peace .
Does that kind of fit into a bit of what your inclusive god has shown you .
Just a question epi . its just a question .
 
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We are either righteous or unrighteous...there is no middle ground. It is indeed by righteousness that we are saved...that we INHERIT life. The unrighteous are cast away.
That's why you can not be saved by your righteousness. When you sin you are unrighteous and ruin the opportunity to be saved by your righteousness.
 
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amigo de christo

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That's why you can not be saved by your righteousness. When you sin you are unrighteous and ruin the opportunity to be saved by your righteousness.
yeah .
But LORD who then can be s aved ....................with man ITS IMPOSSIBLE .
But not with GOD . And dear friend
HOW DID GOD choose to save the world .
God chose that by the PREACHING of the gospel to save those WHO BELEIVE .
JESUS IS THE ONLY HOPE any man or woman born of woman has .
ADAM and EVE brought death down and the curse upon all .
ONLY JE SUS can set one fr ee from death and from the bondage of sin .
AND if one bleieves NOT ON HIM , THERE IS NO TRUTH IN THEM . and they do call GOD a liar .
Now , how RIGHTEOUS IS IT to CALL GOD a liar . yeah their works wont save them . ONLY JESUS can s ave
and to be saved YE MUST BELIEVE ON HIM . that is the gospel and i am glued to IT and will NOT
allow a false inclusvie gospel to replace it .
 
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A person is ONLY be credited with righteousness by what they DO.
Works are not the only way to be declared righteous. Abraham's faith in God's promise was credited to him as righteousness, apart from his works.

The righteousness of our works is not good enough for that to be the righteousness by which a person can enter the kingdom of God. You ruined that way to get in the kingdom of God long ago when you sinned.

Works do not atone for unrighteousness. Deciding you're going to repent and begin to do right does not satisfy the just penalty you still owe for what you did wrong. That's why works and even being perfectly sinless cannot save you. You would have had to have been perfect from the very begining for that to be the righteousness by which you inherit the kingdom.
 

JustMe

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You are wrong of course. You are mixing standards here. There is a human righteousness based on what a human can do...otherwise God would not have given us laws. AND there would be no one called righteous in the bible who was not a Christian. But we who read the bible know that MANY people are called righteous by God before Christ.

What you are not understanding is that no flesh can JUSTIFY themselves for any reason before the Lord.

And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified. Ps 143:2


And that means you can't justify yourself either for your beliefs about Jesus.



And the glory of men is recorded in revelation among the saved righteous of the nations...

And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. Rev 21

Whose honour and glory? The nations.



There is no sanctification process. It is digital...one is either holy or not holy. No one is partially holy.

Glory to glory means the glory of temporal men in what we can do .... to the glory of God and what He can do.
And of course, I also disagree with you on this subject at hand. Your explanations are atrocious and subpar, as if you do not want to spend the time and thought needed to communicate clearly.

At the very least, you could respond with a logical discussion supported by relevant scripture. As it stands, many of your rebuttals, in their brief and vague form, are not worth their salt. Who wants to continue examining and drawing conclusions from your words when they are so difficult to understand and continuously vary on the same subject and common points you raise or respond to someone. Like describing to someone "Who's on first..."
 
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1stCenturyLady

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What accomplishing something by the flesh means is trying to achieve a spiritual end by fleshly means. That's what trying to be saved by works of the law/obedience is. That's a person trying to achieve a spiritual goal through fleshly means. That's what the Galatians were doing wrong. They started out good by the Spirit but then felt compelled to finish in the power of fleshly effort. It's the false gospel of starting out in the Spirit through faith in Christ's forgiveness, but then thinking it is your obedience that makes you a saved person.
Romans 7:5-6
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Can you see that the Jews under the Old Testament law had to keep one day a week holy by the letter of the law. Now the Sabbath is kept by the Spirit, not just one day a week but everyday, all day - Jesus is honored all the time as we rest in Him. That is the Spirit of the Sabbath. The Judaizers were trying to get the Galatians to follow the Jewish law in both days and circumcision. Both of the flesh. But we are NOT in the flesh but in the Spirit.
That is true of genuine works of faith, spurred on and motivated by gratitude for the the mercy of God you have received in the forgiveness of your sin.

That is not true of works that are motivated by the false thinking that it is by the righteousness of your obedience that you become a saved person. The Spirit is no where involved in that kind of false gospel. That is the effort of the flesh trying to fulfill the promise of God. Like how Abraham went into Hagar thinking that was how God was going to fulfill his promise.
Why we are now righteous, if, indeed we have been filled with the Spirit of Christ, is because Jesus took away our sin from the source of our sinning, our sin nature, the old man. It has been crucified and we have been resurrected with Christ with a CLEAN NATURE John 15:3, that is not prone to sin as you still believe. Therefore, we should naturally love what God loves, and hate what God hates. It's easy, and not of the flesh, but love. If you love Me, keep My commandments.
No, sin is what comes 'naturally'. The things of the Spirit are what are unnatural to flesh and blood and which must be motivated and produced by the Spirit, not the flesh. Nothing good comes from the flesh.
Sin did come naturally, but not if the sin nature has been crucified and you have experienced being born again of the Spirit. What is born again is the sin nature, no longer under the power of the devil, but of Christ.
No, 'works' in the context of not being declared righteous by works of the law means it is not by the effort of your flesh in the performance of the requirements of God that you become spiritual. You do the righteous works of the law because you have become a spiritual creation. Faith upholds the law, but it is not by the upholding of that law that you become spiritual. That's the sin of finishing by the flesh what God has accomplished in you by the Spirit, through faith in his forgiveness.
I think I've already responded to this adequately above. I hope you understand now that it is not our works, but Christ living in us.
You are referring to the righteousness that is credited to a person apart from their righteous doings. Explain this to 1stCenturyLady. She challenged that truth in a post to me and I just haven't gotten to it yet.

The error that many make is they do not realize that the righteousness God credits to them when they believe his promise of a Son is more than able to qualify them to enter into the kingdom. They think you must add the righteousness of your works in order to be righteous enough to enter in.

They do not realize that it is God's forgiveness that qualifies you to enter in. That doesn't mean you don't have live holy and upright. It means it is not by the righteousness of your holy behavior that you are made righteous enough to enter into the kingdom. You would indeed have to be a perfect sinless person to get in on that basis. That means no one gets in on that basis. That's why you can only become a saved person by the grace and mercy of God's forgiveness, not your works.
I hope you are not saying the heresy that it sounds like.

1 John 3:7 "Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous."

James 2:
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
 

JimKnox

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This is as false as can be. A person is ONLY be credited with righteousness by what they DO. Again, you are confusing righteousness with holiness.

In holiness a man is COVERED by an anointing of God's righteousness by the empowering by the Spirit. As such righteousness is a gift of God.....but that righteousness is always credited to God. It is the righteousness of God, not men. It is for HIS glory not ours.


Human righteousness is by the glory of men....so we go from glory to glory who enter INTO Christ...as the bible teaches us.


The righteousness of God is ONLY credited to God. In the same way that the American flag is always credited to America. You can have one...but it's always the US flag...never your own personal flag.


We will only be judged by OUR WORKS, OUR righteousness, OUR deeds. What we have done in the body.

The only difference between God's house and the world in judgment is the SCALE of the works that are expected. Contrary to evangelical fairy tales....the church will be judged HARDER than the world not easier. To whom much is given MORE is required.


False. It is God's mercy that puts the ball back into our court. Most will NOT seek God for the full measure of grace....they will remain in a victim mentality and thrust all the responsibility for their behaviour onto Jesus. And to make matters even worse they will claim the goodness of Christ as their own. ALL of this confusion based on self-interest.

God's grace provision MAKES a person holy and perfect. From there the works are those that have been prepared in advance...miraculous works.
Your entire thesis is demolished by the following:
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." — Isaiah 64:6 (KJV)

God does not accept our works of "righteousness" because they are ALL corrupted.

Any righteousness we may have is IMPUTED to us because of the blood of Jesus Christ.
 
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Episkopos

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Your entire thesis is demolished by the following:
"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our rrighteousness are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." — Isaiah 64:6 (KJV)

LOL You have a sunday school level of understanding. No man can stand before God in his own righteousness. No man can justify himself before God for ANYTHING he does or BELIEVES.

It is God who justifies, not you. And He justifies whom He wills....which you are an enemy of. You are an enemy of righteousness, truth and the Lord Himself....but you don't know it yet.
God does not accept our works of "righteousness" because they are ALL corrupted.

God does not accept your beliefs or attempts at self-justification based on your beliefs.
Any righteousness we may have is IMPUTED to us because of the blood of Jesus Christ.
False. God does not impute any other righteousness to us than our own. We will ONLY be judged by what WE did (righteousness or unrighteousness)

You are confusing God imputing our own righteousness to us .....like with Abraham....with a covering righteousness of God that we have when we enter into Christ....that Paul attests to. The Head of every man is Christ.
 
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Episkopos

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And of course, I also disagree with you on this subject at hand. Your explanations are atrocious and subpar, as if you do not want to spend the time and thought needed to communicate clearly.

At the very least, you could respond with a logical discussion supported by relevant scripture. As it stands, many of your rebuttals, in their brief and vague form, are not worth their salt. Who wants to continue examining and drawing conclusions from your words when they are so difficult to understand and continuously vary on the same subject and common points you raise or respond to someone. Like describing to someone "Who's on first..."
So you blame me for your lack of understanding? Unless I post verses that you were indoctrinated to believe in foolishly....you say you don't understand....which of course is true.
 

Episkopos

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That's why you can not be saved by your righteousness. When you sin you are unrighteous and ruin the opportunity to be saved by your righteousness.
So you are being saved by the Lord in your unrighteousness? In your scheme the more unrighteousness you perform the more credit God gets. See where that gets you.... :rolleyes:
 
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TitusTwoWife

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Committing sins due to immature fruit are not sins unto death, but sins not unto death; however, maturing fruit is necessary for salvation. Otherwise, those branches that do not bear fruit are cast into the fire. John 15:1-4, “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me."
Do you find there is a lot of false teaching about what counts as a sin? @Episkopos
I ask your thoughts as well.


I believe there are a lot of made up sins that aren't biblical. This adds to the belief that stopping sin is impossible.
 

marks

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Do you find there is a lot of false teaching about what counts as a sin? @Episkopos
I ask your thoughts as well.


I believe there are a lot of made up sins that aren't biblical. This adds to the belief that stopping sin is impossible.
If indeed "all that is not of faith is sin", This is a rather stringent standard, is it not? When we walk in the Spirit we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. We need to be walking in the Spirit to fully avoid known sins.

To me sin isn't so much a list of prohibited actions, rather, its what results when I'm choosing out of my flesh. Not to diminish the many statements of actions which we know are not of God, but to say there is much more we may do that is sin, not coming from faith.

To me, faith is a far higher standard than is Law.

Much love!
 

JustMe

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So you blame me for your lack of understanding? Unless I post verses that you were indoctrinated to believe in foolishly....you say you don't understand....which of course is true.
It should now be clear and obvious that I regard you as responsible for your intentional undermining and your unclear written communication, as well as for the deliberate lack of scripture. So what is actually contained in your booth of spiritual wisdom? Can you genuinely answer this question in an honest and mature manner? What do you stand for, without giving a riddle-like response?
 
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JimKnox

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LOL You have a sunday school level of understanding. No man can stand before God in his own righteousness. No man can justify himself before God for ANYTHING he does or BELIEVES.

It is God who justifies, not you. And He justifies whom He wills....which you are an enemy of. You are an enemy of righteousness, truth and the Lord Himself....but you don't know it yet.


God does not accept your beliefs or attempts at self-justification based on your beliefs.

False. God does not impute any other righteousness to us than our own. We will ONLY be judged by what WE did (righteousness or unrighteousness)

You are confusing God imputing our own righteousness to us .....like with Abraham....with a covering righteousness of God that we have when we enter into Christ....that Paul attests to. The Head of every man is Christ.
Congratulations.
You just earned a place on my ignore list.
Your insults and gaslighting are beyond insulting. It is downright Democrat.
 
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sondring7

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I think you are assuming that sealing means you have hit the eternal jackpot whereas it means you will be dealt with personally by the Lord. It is a fearful thing to come under the intense scrutiny of God.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Does NOT teach can become UNsealed
Does teach ARE sealed unto the day of redemption

Please list where Paul clearly teaches a HS sealed believer can become UNsealed

Verse FROM Paul , NOT opinions from man :)
 

1stCenturyLady

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IOW don't push righteousness in the face of holiness. Big mistake.
and @MostlyConfused

Jesus does the correct order as we submit ourselves to Him. First He is the Author of our first faith from Romans 1:16-17 righteousness revealed from faith to faith." Unlike the first covenant, the ministry of death, the new covenant is the POWER OF GOD, the ministry of the Spirit. It is not our doing, it is all Him. When I was born again I literally felt a heaviness lift out of my body, and I felt light as a feather. I'm sure I've told you that before. The amazing thing was I had been a slave to adultery, but after that desire left my body, I was free from sin. I was actually righteous. Jesus made me righteous. It wasn't the heresy of Christ's righteousness covering over my sin as is taught in many churches to their shame. They don't understand that when all evil desire is taken away you naturally want to do good. There is no more struggle to be good, you just are. This was after 30 years of going to a legalistic denomination, unsaved. I remember looking around the SDA church at all the people thinking, if they only knew that I was going to the movies with my family that night, as we did every Saturday night. I was a very bad Seventh-day Adventist always feeling ashamed. But that was how I was raised. And my mother was even the church treasurer.

Then as the Finisher of our faith, comes the long process of one by one maturing the fruit of the Spirit and getting closer and closer to perfection where, at the end, we "never stumble." That is found in verse 10 of 2 Peter 1:5-11. Only Jesus knows when He has finished the work He started in us, but He promised He will. Philippians 1:6.