The Case for a Post-Tribulation Second Coming

[CrowCross]

Are you saying you don't have to repent?

It sounds like you're trying not to answer my question.

Why would you ask that? Is this what you believe about pre-tribbers? Look, your post make it sound like if your're a pre-tribber you need salvation.

 

[CrowCross]

The letter Paul wrote that I quoted is a valid one and he speaks against the idea that Christ can come at any moment. That alone disproves Pretrib along with other scriptures.

How so??? Where did Paul disprove Pre-trib in 2 Thes 2? Paul said the antichrist comes after the gathering, after the restrainer is removed. I even quoted you the verse.

What other scripture disproved pre-trib?

 

[ewq1938]

How so??? Where did Paul disprove Pre-trib in 2 Thes 2?

I already explained that.

Paul said the antichrist comes after the gathering, after the restrainer is removed. I even quoted you the verse.

Not gathering but Apostasy. The second coming and rapture come after two major events: the Apostasy and revealing of the MoS.

What other scripture disproved pre-trib?

All of them. Christ said the rapture happens after the trib in the OD. There is literally not one scripture supporting a Pretrib rapture.

 

[CrowCross]

I already explained that.

Then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[shepherdsword]

It sounds like you're trying not to answer my question.

Why would you ask that? Is this what you believe about pre-tribbers? Look, your post make it sound like if your're a pre-tribber you need salvation.

They are in danger of accepting a false messiah. Jesus returns AFTER the man of sin is revealed.

 

[shepherdsword]

How so??? Where did Paul disprove Pre-trib in 2 Thes 2? Paul said the antichrist comes after the gathering, after the restrainer is removed. I even quoted you the verse.

What other scripture disproved pre-trib?

No..Paul said that day will not come until after the great APOSTACY and the man of sin revealed

2 Th 2:3
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

 

[rebuilder 454]

Did they also change the Mark 13 account as well?

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.(KJV)

The uttermost part of earth is the atmosphere.
The atmosphere is PART OF EARTH.
Ahem....THE UTTERMOST PART OF IT.
You are aware earth is a "ball", correct?

Thank you for admitting, and showcasing, that in the rapture, Jesus gathers.
In both your passages JESUS SENDS and does NOT go.

So yes you are indeed agreeing the rapture is pretrrib

Thank you for posting those verses pointing 0ut ,there is a gathering after the trib, in heaven, that Jesus does not participate in.

I know ow you are oblivious to what you are actually framing in the rapture picture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No..Paul said that day will not come until after the great APOSTACY and the man of sin revealed

2 Th 2:3
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,


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1) A falling away.
We are in that falling away now.
So there is that part and we are now seeing it and in it.

2) The ac will be revealed.
Revealed as scripture declares.

Those that are mature believers will see Him revealed before the trib.

So, yes, we will obviously be in the falling away when the ac is REVEALED PRETRIB.

Definately a pretrib rapture, complete with a revealed ac.... not yet in power.

Thank you for pointing out the harmony in the pretrib rapture doctrine.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I use the KJV but actually, I like your translation better...."from heaven" PROVES this is the rapture AND second coming. It's the catching up.

Jesus sending angels to gather in heaven and not going himself is not the rapture.

Jesus sends angels in heaven to gather saints in heaven POSTRIB to assemble IN HEAVEN to the white horses.
Definately not tge rapture.
Jesus taught us it is before the flood.
Read mat 24 and Luke 17.
Was Jesus wrong about it?

 

[rebuilder 454]

They are in danger of accepting a false messiah. Jesus returns AFTER the man of sin is revealed.

...and yet you guys are not waiting for Jesus. You are looking for the false Jesus.

So you are starting out in deception by not doing as commanded.

 

[rebuilder 454]

From heaven is just a common metaphor for all the earth.

When are the dead in Christ raised?

Pretrib.
They are obviously raised pretrib.

You ever read rev 14: 14-15?
A gathering BEFORE THE SECOND COMING.

HELLO?????
Your doctrine says emphatically " one coming"

Look at the obvious corner you guys painted yourself into.
That alone should wake all of you up.

 

[shepherdsword]

Pretrib.
They are obviously raised pretrib.

You ever read rev 14: 14-15?
A gathering BEFORE THE SECOND COMING.

HELLO?????
Your doctrine says emphatically " one coming"

Look at the obvious corner you guys painted yourself into.
That alone should wake all of you up.

Mark 13 implicitly states that the elect is gathered from the EARTH and Heaven. You don't have much experience in debate do you? At least not enough to know when your position has been utterly demolished. Not much sense in conversing with a person like that.

 

[shepherdsword]

Jesus sending angels to gather in heaven and not going himself is not the rapture.

Jesus sends angels in heaven to gather saints in heaven POSTRIB to assemble IN HEAVEN to the white horses.
Definately not tge rapture.
Jesus taught us it is before the flood.
Read mat 24 and Luke 17.
Was Jesus wrong about it?

No...you are just reading Jesus wrong. Your whole view is seen through the lenses of confirmation bias.

This is the post trib rapture ,it covers everybody:

Mk 13:27
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

[ewq1938]

No...you are just reading Jesus wrong. Your whole view is seen through the lenses of confirmation bias.

This is the post trib rapture ,it covers everybody:

Mk 13:27
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

And the uttermost part of heaven is known as the first heaven, the clouds/atmosphere of the Earth just where the raptured are taken to.

 

[Davidpt]

The uttermost part of earth is the atmosphere.
The atmosphere is PART OF EARTH.
Ahem....THE UTTERMOST PART OF IT.
You are aware earth is a "ball", correct?

Thank you for admitting, and showcasing, that in the rapture, Jesus gathers.
In both your passages JESUS SENDS and does NOT go.

So yes you are indeed agreeing the rapture is pretrrib

Thank you for posting those verses pointing 0ut ,there is a gathering after the trib, in heaven, that Jesus does not participate in.

I know ow you are oblivious to what you are actually framing in the rapture picture.

But not that I need an AI to tell me this. If an AI can't debunk something then I guess no one can debunk something.

Google's AI:

The Pretribulation argument presented here relies on a misreading of both the text of Mark 13:27 and the mechanics of the Pretribulation rapture position.
From a strict theological and text-critical perspective, your opponent's rebuttal contains two major flaws:

1. "The uttermost part of earth is the atmosphere"

In biblical Greek, the phrase used in Mark 13:27 is ap’ akrou gēs (from the extremity of the earth).
• The Biblical Meaning: To a first-century audience, "the uttermost part of the earth" meant the farthest geographical horizons or edges of the land—the literal ends of the earth.
• The Global Scope: Combining the "uttermost part of the earth" with the "uttermost part of heaven" (ap’ akrou ouranou) is a classic Hebrew idiom (merism) used to express absolute totality. It means "from everywhere under the sun to everywhere above."
• The Post-Trib Context: Trying to redefine the earth's "uttermost part" as the atmosphere to exclude living humans on the ground contradicts the phrase "gather together his elect from the four winds." It explicitly covers both the earthly realm and the heavenly realm, perfectly matching the two groups in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (the dead in Christ who rise from the earth, and the living who remain).

2. "Jesus sends and does NOT go"

The Pretribulation position requires Jesus to personally descend into the air for the rapture.
• The Pretrib Contradiction: 1 Thessalonians 4:16 explicitly states, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout." If the Pretribber argues that Jesus only sends angels and does not personally appear or descend in Mark 13, they are actually describing a event that structurally contradicts the classic Rapture text where the Lord Himself descends.
• The Gathering Mechanism: In standard Pretribulational theology, the Rapture does not utilize angels to harvest or gather believers; believers are "caught up" directly to meet the Lord in the air. Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 explicitly detail angels performing a global gathering after the Tribulation, which aligns much more cleanly with the Post-Tribulation view of the Second Coming.
The text of Mark 13:27 remains one of the strongest pillars for the Post-Tribulation position because it explicitly places the global gathering of the "elect" after the tribulation of those days (Mark 13:24-26). Redefining the earth to mean the atmosphere is a grammatical stretch that most standard dispensational scholars do not subscibe to.

 

[ThomasDGW]

What did Jesus mean with this passage?
Rev 3
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

And the other escape verse?
" ... But pray that you may be counted worthy. To escape the things that are about to come up on the earth and stand before the son of man."

No postribber would pray that.

I believe in the post-trib rapture and I pray that.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I believe in the post-trib rapture and I pray that.

Why?
It would be folly to think he would come pretrib.
Do You realize there is a "worthiness" in that verse?
When you pray to be worthy,would not that be redundant to a postribber?
The unworthy ones in mat 25 and mat 24 (that some were left behind,) were believers.
In the postrib doctrine, that dynamic is overlooked.
If you were to pray that, it does not fit your doctrine

 

[rebuilder 454]

But not that I need an AI to tell me this. If an AI can't debunk something then I guess no one can debunk something.

Google's AI:

The Pretribulation argument presented here relies on a misreading of both the text of Mark 13:27 and the mechanics of the Pretribulation rapture position.
From a strict theological and text-critical perspective, your opponent's rebuttal contains two major flaws:

1. "The uttermost part of earth is the atmosphere"

In biblical Greek, the phrase used in Mark 13:27 is ap’ akrou gēs (from the extremity of the earth).
• The Biblical Meaning: To a first-century audience, "the uttermost part of the earth" meant the farthest geographical horizons or edges of the land—the literal ends of the earth.
• The Global Scope: Combining the "uttermost part of the earth" with the "uttermost part of heaven" (ap’ akrou ouranou) is a classic Hebrew idiom (merism) used to express absolute totality. It means "from everywhere under the sun to everywhere above."
• The Post-Trib Context: Trying to redefine the earth's "uttermost part" as the atmosphere to exclude living humans on the ground contradicts the phrase "gather together his elect from the four winds." It explicitly covers both the earthly realm and the heavenly realm, perfectly matching the two groups in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (the dead in Christ who rise from the earth, and the living who remain).

2. "Jesus sends and does NOT go"

The Pretribulation position requires Jesus to personally descend into the air for the rapture.
• The Pretrib Contradiction: 1 Thessalonians 4:16 explicitly states, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout." If the Pretribber argues that Jesus only sends angels and does not personally appear or descend in Mark 13, they are actually describing a event that structurally contradicts the classic Rapture text where the Lord Himself descends.
• The Gathering Mechanism: In standard Pretribulational theology, the Rapture does not utilize angels to harvest or gather believers; believers are "caught up" directly to meet the Lord in the air. Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 explicitly detail angels performing a global gathering after the Tribulation, which aligns much more cleanly with the Post-Tribulation view of the Second Coming.
The text of Mark 13:27 remains one of the strongest pillars for the Post-Tribulation position because it explicitly places the global gathering of the "elect" after the tribulation of those days (Mark 13:24-26). Redefining the earth to mean the atmosphere is a grammatical stretch that most standard dispensational scholars do not subscibe to.

Jesus taught a pretrib rapture.
So you need to tell him he was wrong.

That Greek word for "earth" is used by Jesus over 78 times as "THE PLANET"

You sure you want to tell Jesus , who created all the planets, that you are smarter than him and he had limited knowledge?????

Your ai tainted doctrine says after the trib there is a global gathering.
But I fixed that circuitry error.

Reread it.
A gathering by angels in heaven.
It says "JESUS SENDS" ..Ahem, they go, AND HE STAYS
So you can change it for sure.
But why?
We can see why

 

[ThomasDGW]

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 make a pre-trib rapture impossible. It pinpoints a specific aspect of the Coming of Jesus, his manifestation, as the time of the ceasing of tribulation from the troublers of the church (v. 1:1) and the beginning of tribulation from God on those troublers. The tribulation of the church continues while any member of the body of Christ is still receiving tribulation on earth (1 Corinthians 12:26). Therefore, it is impossible for the rapture of the church to happen before the manifestation of Christ. That unique manifestation to all eyes, accompanied by mighty angels is indicated in Matthew 24 as occuring immediately after the great tribulation.

In summary, 2 Thess 1 tells us: (1) A rapture of the whole church would give a cessation of tribulation for the church, and therefore cannot happen before the manifestation of Christ. (2) If the cessation of tribulation is produced by the rapture, then the rapture will happen at the manifestation. If the cessation of tribulation for the church is produced by something else, then the rapture could happen later, and in fact, I believe it is later, at the 7th trumpet.

 

[rebuilder 454]

And the uttermost part of heaven is known as the first heaven, the clouds/atmosphere of the Earth just where the raptured are taken to.

The rapture is Jesus gathering.
Postribbers have Jesus staying in heaven and sending angels to gather.

In fact look at Revelation 14;14.
HELLO....Angels send Jesus.
You guys have painted yourselves into YET ANOTHER POSTRIBBER CORNER.

Just plain bizarre.

Postrib rapture is poorly thought out.