The Case for a Post-Tribulation Second Coming

[Spiritual Israelite]

Take a look at Deuteronomy 30:4-5 about the gathering of the Jews from the nations.

Deuteronomy 30:
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

Matthew 24:29-31 (and Mark 13:24-27) is about the gathering of the elect at Christ's future coming, not the gathering of Jews. The Jews are not the elect. We (the church) are.

Romans 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What s bizarre is that you spoke all those sentences believing there is only one coming.

Once your "one coming" deal is exposed as false, we can see what heaven is saying.

Tell me, is revealation 14 ;14,15 gathering during the 7yr trib, the same exact thing as rev 19 coming on millions of horses?

You don't understand the format of the book of Revelation. It shows the one and only future coming of Christ from different angles. Just because Revelation 14 doesn't mention white horses doesn't mean it's not speaking of the same event. Are white horses mentioned in Matthew 24:30-31? No. Yet, you believe it's the same event as Revelation 19:11-21, right?

Why is one during the 7yr trib, and one after it?

What a terrible dilemma you guys are trying to defend.

LOL. You have no idea how incredibly weak your arguments are. Very delusional.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus taught a pretrib rapture.
So you need to tell him he was wrong.

LOL! Such utter nonsense. I hope you know that no one takes you seriously. You waste your time with your gibberish..

Mark 13:24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Jesus explicitly taught a post-trib rapture, so YOU are wrong.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How so??? Where did Paul disprove Pre-trib in 2 Thes 2? Paul said the antichrist comes after the gathering, after the restrainer is removed. I even quoted you the verse.

What other scripture disproved pre-trib?

Mark 13:24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Of course, the parallel passage of Matthew 24:29-31 also proves a post-trib rapture. The rapture is a reference to the gathering of those who are in Christ when Jesus comes and those who are in Christ are the elect, according to scripture (Romans 8:31-34).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The uttermost part of earth is the atmosphere.

LOL! No. The uttermost part of earth is NOT the atmosphere. The elect will be gathered off of the surface of the earth. That will be the resurrected bodies of the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain. Mark 13:24-27 makes it clear that the elect will be gathered from the uttermost part of heaven, also. That will be the souls of the dead in Christ who are in heaven now. They are the ones that Paul said will be with Jesus when He comes from heaven (1 Thess 4:14).

The atmosphere is PART OF EARTH.
Ahem....THE UTTERMOST PART OF IT.
You are aware earth is a "ball", correct?

The phrase "the uttermost part of earth" simply means throughout the entire earth. The elect on the entire earth will be gathered when Jesus comes and we will meet Him "in the air", according to Paul (1 Thess 4:14-17).

Thank you for admitting, and showcasing, that in the rapture, Jesus gathers.
In both your passages JESUS SENDS and does NOT go.

What passage says that Jesus Himself gathers? None. You're just making things up now. The way in which the elect will be gathered is by the angels that Jesus sends to gather them. There is a sense in which one could say Jesus is gathering the elect, but Jesus Himself made it clear that He will use His angels to do it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The rapture is Jesus gathering.
Postribbers have Jesus staying in heaven and sending angels to gather.

In fact look at Revelation 14;14.
HELLO....Angels send Jesus.
You guys have painted yourselves into YET ANOTHER POSTRIBBER CORNER.

Just plain bizarre.

Postrib rapture is poorly thought out.

LOL. Such nonsense. Revelation 14:14 is symbolic. Hello? Do you think that Jesus will be literally using a giant sickle to gather His people? No, He said Himself that He will be using His angels to gather the elect. When you take symbolism literally in the book of Revelation it leads to all kinds of ridiculous conclusions.

 

[CrowCross]

Mark 13:24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

Of course, the parallel passage of Matthew 24:29-31 also proves a post-trib rapture. The rapture is a reference to the gathering of those who are in Christ when Jesus comes and those who are in Christ are the elect, according to scripture (Romans 8:31-34).

Yes, this verse does show a return of Jesus.
Where is my problem?

 

[CrowCross]

Matthew 24:29-31 (and Mark 13:24-27) is about the gathering of the elect at Christ's future coming, not the gathering of Jews. The Jews are not the elect. We (the church) are.

What would you call the people who become christians during the tribulation?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, this verse does show a return of Jesus.
Where is my problem?

Your problem is that you believe in the false pre-trib rapture theory. Jesus taught a post-trib rapture. The term "rapture" simply refers to the gathering of the church to meet Jesus at His future coming. The church consists of the elect (Romans 8:31-34). So, in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Jesus clearly taught a post-trib rapture/gathering of His people.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What would you call the people who become christians during the tribulation?

The same as I would call them now. Christians who are part of the church/body of Christ and are God's elect (Romans 8:31-34).

 

[CrowCross]

Your problem is that you believe in the false pre-trib rapture theory. Jesus taught a post-trib rapture. The term "rapture" simply refers to the gathering of the church to meet Jesus at His future coming. The church consists of the elect (Romans 8:31-34). So, in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Jesus clearly taught a post-trib rapture/gathering of His people.

Jesus taught a pre-trib coming when He spoke of the times of Noah as well in John 14 when He said He is going to His fathers house and building us rooms...and He would come again for us. This also fits the Jewish wedding tradition of those days.

 

[CrowCross]

The same as I would call them now. Christians who are part of the church/body of Christ and are God's elect (Romans 8:31-34).

Those tribulation christians will miss the pre-trib rapture. The reason should be obvious.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus taught a pre-trib coming when He spoke of the times of Noah

So, you believe in both a pre-trib and a post-trib rapture? He clearly taught a post-trib rapture in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.

How exactly do you think He spoke of a pre-trib rapture in relation to the times of Noah? Do you think the coming of the Son of Man He referenced in Matthew 24:39 is a different coming of the Son of Man than He referenced in Matthew 24:30-31?

as well in John 14 when He said He is going to His fathers house and building us rooms...and He would come again for us. This also fits the Jewish wedding tradition of those days.

It doesn't say He then turns around and goes back to heaven again while bringing us with Him. Why wouldn't we just be taken directly to heaven in that case instead of meeting Him "in the air"?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Those tribulation christians will miss the pre-trib rapture. The reason should be obvious.

Nonsense. Scripture never speaks of such a thing. All Christians will be in the rapture at the same time according to Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. Those who miss the rapture will all be killed (1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10).

 

[LoveYeshua]

The good news first, is that there is less to fear than most have anticipated.

The bad news is, every commonly held believe regarding the tribulation and second coming is all part of the "lie" spoken of by Paul. This is and has been the "strong delusion."

Every point, whether pre, or post, or mid tribulation, and every point regarding the second coming can be dismantled and explained with the scriptures. Every point. However, because each of these beliefs are and have been so strong and long-standing, most have been, are, and will be inclined to reject the actual truth. But here it is, in the fullness of time by the Spirit of "all truth", as promised:

• Tribulations began in the Garden, and continue until the end, all of which are the sum total of the "great tribulation" placed upon Christ.
• Adam was/is the man of sin revealed in all who were and are born since (all "in Adam"). That was the "falling away", and this is all the great apostasy.
• Jesus came, returned to the Father, then beginning at Pentecost began returning--not as one mass physical return--but "in the glory of the Father" (which is in spirit) "not by observation", "at an hour you do not expect"..."but each one [individual] in his own order", in the way He said, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me", as God, Holy and Spirit, as "another Helper."

Where do you get all this? in a crackerjack box? I told you once you say strange things this is an example.

How You dare call this truth!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Where do you get all this? in a crackerjack box? I told you once you say strange things this is an example.

How You dare call this truth!

He lives in his own world. He thinks he alone understands the truth and no one else does. He's delusional. Did you know that he thinks he's the one Paul talked about in 1 Corinthians 12:2-4 who was caught up to the third heaven/paradise? Something is seriously wrong in his mind.

 

[ThomasDGW]

Something that I have noticed is that I used to get mad when I got challenged on a belief. Then I saw it: A clear system that emerged from the plain reading of scripture. All my doubts melted away because there were no more problem verses that seemed to contradict, or even challenge, my new view. At the same time, my anger melted away because I had become sure of my belief.

Think about it: If someone said that you are not a human being, would you get mad? I doubt it, because you know that you are, and such an erroneous statement would just make you laigh.

I see a lot of anger here. There may be some here who are not showing anger, but most seem to be angry. When I see anger, I see uncertainty, regardless of how strongly an idea is affirmed.

Did anyone notice that I do not get angry when you contradict me? I am angry that you are mostly talking past each other and make almost no progress in understanding. But I am not angry when you make false claims. I just wonder if it will be worth my time to try to explain what is wrong with the claims, because I think that maybe no one is paying attention.

Such calm assurance in the face of challenge increases the anger in someone who is not sure. So I am aware that I am being maddening. I can only hope that someone will listen.

 

[ThomasDGW]

I grew up hearing the pre-trib rapture taught everywhere, in church, on Christian radio, in popular Christian books and movies. At the same time my father was expressing his belief that the rapture would be post-trib. I could see his points, but I could not seem to refute the pre-trib arguments, and making the post-trib theory fit the Bible was not giving satisfactory results.

Through struggle with another doctrinal issue, I discovered a new way of almost woodenly taking scripture for what it said. After that issue became settled, I had the wild idea of trying the same "wooden" mrtjod on the rapture issue. I was surprised and gratified that the rapture clearly would be after the Great Tribulation.

When Marv Rosenthal came out with the pre-wrath theory, I thought that was the answer, and so did my father. I went to his seminar and bought his book. Yet, some nagging doubts remained with the pre-wrath view. The common post-trib position, with its overlapping of the seals and the trumpets, and even the bowls of wrath did not seem to give a satisfactory resolution.

To complicate matters, I found myself excluded from church after church after organization because I was sure that the pre-trib rapture was false, though the pre-wrath rapture simply seemed the least problematic.

That all started over 45 years ago. I went over Dwight Pentecosts 28? reasons to believe the pre-trib rapture at the request of a pastor who felt bad at having to exclude me from membership. I found them all inadequate.

Then, about 15 years ago, it dawned on me that Luke 17 cleared up the problems, indicating that gathering of Matthew 24 to cut short the tribulation of the church is NOT the rapture. Then the rapture has to happen at the last trump of Revelation 11, meaning that the rapture is not a surprise event.

At that point, all the doctrinal problems and doubts disappeared. That made me a confirmed post-tribber for the first time, though I do NOT follow any of the post-trib systems I was previously aware of. It also made me very lonely. I would appreciate it if someone would listen to what I have found instead of hurling demeaning comments back and forth.

 

[ewq1938]

Then, about 15 years ago, it dawned on me that Luke 17 cleared up the problems, indicating that gathering of Matthew 24 to cut short the tribulation of the church is NOT the rapture. Then the rapture has to happen at the last trump of Revelation 11, meaning that the rapture is not a surprise event.

IMO The end of Rev 11 and the part of Matt 24 are the same timeframe when the second coming happens, and the rapture/gathering.

 

[shepherdsword]

IMO The end of Rev 11 and the part of Matt 24 are the same timeframe when the second coming happens, and the rapture/gathering.

It's not opinion brother, it is FACT. All one has to do is look at what happens at the 7th trumpet to see the truth of your words.