Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[1stCenturyLady]

Unrighteousness in humanity is what we believers condemn. That's what you're not getting.

No one is perfect. The problem with your theology is you have no blood sacrifice to atone for your unrighteousness. And so the guilt of your unrighteousness remains, regardless of any righteous behavior you do have. Even if you really did become literally perfect in thought and deed there is still the matter of your past unrighteousness. God is a just God. There is a just penalty for sin and it has to be paid. There is no just penalty for sin in your theology. Everybody remains in the guilt of their unrighteousness in your theology. The guilt of unrighteousness is not removed through doing righteous works. Forgiveness through blood sacrifice and transformation by the Spirit is what makes a person right with God.

This sounds like you've never heard of Jesus Christ! He was the sacrifice. And He rose again. This is the analogy of our sin nature being crucified, and us being resurrected righteous free from sin. As far "no one is perfect," that is correct UNTIL Jesus finishes the work he started in us. THEN we will come to the point in this lifetime where we "never stumble."

 

[Laurina]

Yes and I found nothing that says outer darkness is a place in Heaven where there is NO darkness.

Who said that outer darkness is a place in heaven?? Where did you get that understanding from??

Outer darkness is still not a place in Heaven. It's a place down in hell.

Scripture back up on this please. As in, where in the bible do you get that from?

I did and found those they turn away from the Lord denying Him to go back to sin are not rewarded with Heaven.

But yet it says they are children of the kingdom, and servants of the king (from the kingdom of heaven), and, unprofitable servants (again, from the kingdom of heaven).

 

[RandyDawson]

This sounds like you've never heard of Jesus Christ! He was the sacrifice. And He rose again. This is the analogy of our sin nature being crucified, and us being resurrected righteous free from sin. As far "no one is perfect," that is correct UNTIL Jesus finishes the work he started in us. THEN we will come to the point in this lifetime where we "never stumble."

Is it your claim that @Judge Hardcastle is not a Christian?

Isn't saying sounds like they've never heard of Jesus Christ another way of telling them they are not a believer?

 

[Laurina]

Yes and I found nothing that says outer darkness is a place in Heaven where there is NO darkness.

Who said that outer darkness is a place in heaven?? Where did you get that understanding from??

Outer darkness is still not a place in Heaven. It's a place down in hell.

Scripture back up on this please. As in, where in the bible do you get that from?

I did and found those they turn away from the Lord denying Him to go back to sin are not rewarded with Heaven.

But yet it says they are children of the kingdom, and servants of the king (from the kigdom of heaven), and, unprofitable servants (again, from the kingdom of heaven).

 

[JustMe]

You ask something from me with a demanding and arrogant rudeness, not even a common politeness. All while insisting someone can be righteous without DOING what God says is right toward others.
You are amazing.
Why would I HELP you to continue harming yourself?

That's a clever cop-out

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Is it your claim that @Judge Hardcastle is not a Christian?

Isn't saying sounds like they've never heard of Jesus Christ another way of telling them they are not a believer?

Did you see where he even mentioned Jesus in the post I responded to. He starts by saying "no one if perfect." And yet that is not truth. Where did he get that heresy? When Jesus finishes his work in us, how can we be anything but perfect? Peter says that at the end of that process, we never stumble. That is another word for holy. You'd have to ask him your question. What I see is someone that doesn't know the power of Jesus Christ. Do you?

 

[Laurina]

Did you see where he even mentioned Jesus in the post I responded to. He starts by saying "no one if perfect." And yet that is not truth. Where did he get that heresy? When Jesus finishes his work in us, how can we be anything but perfect? Peter says that at the end of that process, we never stumble. That is another word for holy. You'd have to ask him your question. What I see is someone that doesn't know the power of Jesus Christ. Do you?

Eph 5:27
"That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

Jesus is coming back for His bride!!

 

[JustMe]

That’s not what Episkopos teaches. I know it’s what you see, but it’s not what he teaches. He teaches that God calls the wicked to turn from the harm they do to others and calls the righteous to a higher calling. He also teaches that hypocrites who have received the down payment of the Spirit by calling on the Lord go to outer darkness.

If that is what Epi teaches then I would run...I would think the wicked should do more that not just harm others in the future. That the wicked need to turn from their sins in forgiveness and fix their sights on God and his Son for salvation - first and foremost.

I think that a genuine believer who is ultimately righteous in Christ already knows via the Spirit, and is in the process of executing the calling and 'running the race' already.

Show me the scripture regarding the hypocrites who are being saved today who call of the name of the lord, go to state of eternal separation from God.

What scripture does say, however...

Those who are genuinely saved by calling on the Lord's name will not go to a state of eternal separation from God. The context distinguishes between true believers and "hypocrites" or "professors of Christ only," who are not saved and are destined for eternal separation aka outer darkness.

Romans 10:13 states that "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved," Matthew 7:21-23 warns that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter heaven. Those who are merely "professors" but not "possessors" of faith, and who practice lawlessness, will be told, "I never knew you; depart from Me," indicating they were never truly saved. They never possessed the spirit of the Son

The "hypocrites" or those who reject the gospel face eternal separation from God. This is described in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 as "eternal destruction" and being "shut out from the presence of the Lord." This separation is the ultimate punishment, characterized by the absence of all good, light, and fellowship with God.

For those who die in their sins, this separation is irrevocable. There are no post-mortem opportunities for reconciliation, and the state of the wicked is fixed and unchanging. True believers, however, are separated from God's love only by sin (of unrighteousness) in this life, but their salvation is secure, and they will dwell in God's presence eternally - in his Kingdom.

You see, the gospel of God is much brighter that Epi's version, one of doom and gloom, where only he and few of his followers will reap rewards....

 

[RandyDawson]

Did you see where he even mentioned Jesus in the post I responded to. He starts by saying "no one if perfect." And yet that is not truth. Where did he get that heresy? When Jesus finishes his work in us, how can we be anything but perfect? Peter says that at the end of that process, we never stumble. That is another word for holy. You'd have to ask him your question. What I see is someone that doesn't know the power of Jesus Christ. Do you?

I thought board rules forbid saying or inferring others as not being Christian?
Maybe I didn't read through the rules correctly.

Yes those who abide in Christ their entire lives and actually are allowed in to His kingdom will receive a glorified body and at the point they will be perfect in the literal sense. Until then, not so much since even holy people fall short of absolute perfection.

Were you able to attain to absolute perfection yet? It seems like telling someone "This sounds like you've never heard of Jesus Christ!" is falling a bit short of absolute perfection but I could be wrong.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I thought board rules forbid saying or inferring others as not being Christian?
Maybe I didn't read through the rules correctly.

Yes those who abide in Christ their entire lives and actually are allowed in to His kingdom will receive a glorified body and at the point they will be perfect in the literal sense. Until then, not so much since even holy people fall short of absolute perfection.

Were you able to attain to absolute perfection yet? It seems like telling someone "This sounds like you've never heard of Jesus Christ!" is falling a bit short of absolute perfection but I could be wrong.

Then you better watch out, because I didn't say that, you did. I brought up that he doesn't recognize that Jesus took away our sin, and that Jesus is our sacrifice. Are you a bearer of false witness?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Eph 5:27
"That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

Jesus is coming back for His bride!!

Yes, exactly!

 

[JustMe]

Who said that outer darkness is a place in heaven?? Where did you get that understanding from??

Scripture back up on this please. As in, where in the bible do you get that from?

But yet it says they are children of the kingdom, and servants of the king (from the kigdom of heaven), and, unprofitable servants (again, from the kingdom of heaven).

And who do you think are the children or sons of the kingdom in scripture and context? Must dig deeper.

Matthew 8:12, the "children of the kingdom" (or "sons of the kingdom") will be cast out into outer darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This passage is interpreted as these two types of people IN CONTEXT:

• Unbelieving Jews' : Judahites: The original kingdom up until Christ was Israel and the 12 tribes at one point. This is the context used here. They are identifies as the "children of the kingdom" (some translations have the 'sons of the kingdom') as the biological descendants of Abraham (the Judahites) who, despite their privileged status, rejected Jesus/Yeshua as the Messiah and were thus excluded from the 'new' Kingdom of Heaven.
• Professing Believers: Those with an outward profession of faith who lack genuine saving faith or spiritual fruit, warning that religious heritage alone does not guarantee entry into the Kingdom.

The same logic used for the parables of the unprofitable and unfaithful servants. Just because one is a servant of a King does not guarantee they truly are loyal and would give their entire life for him, to his will etc. These types were just hired hands who were in it for the sustenance and gain, eventhough the chores might have been done correctly and on time. They were not genuine King or God-fearing servants as genuine believers. They did not have the regenerated heart condition I'm afraid for the genuine article and his Kingdom.

And you believed in Epi's outlandish explanation that fits perfectly into his elitist gospel rendition, hook line and sinker.

Maybe someone special and precious, above all, above my pay grade can get the hook out of your mouth, for good.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Yes it is. It is what Jesus does first as the Author of our faith. He takes away lawless sin from our "old man" the carnal nature Paul called "the flesh." But that has nothing to do with our body. Sin does not reside in our body, but in our mind and heart. Those are what is first born again. But your understanding is good.

The problem I had was I was in church for 30 years BEFORE this first stage happened, and I'm very afraid for those in the church who still have no power over sin.

Okay…so then, we still have our flesh, are still able to sin, but that flesh/old man never does do after that any “lawless sin?” Could you explain/define “lawless sin” versus “sin?”

 

[Laurina]

And who do you think are the children or sons of the kingdom in scripture and context? Must dig deeper.

Matthew 8:12, the "children of the kingdom" (or "sons of the kingdom") will be cast out into outer darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This passage is interpreted as these two types of people IN CONTEXT:

• Unbelieving Jews' : Judahites: The original kingdom up until Christ was Israel and the 12 tribes at one point. This is the context used here. They are identifies as the "children of the kingdom" (some translations have the 'sons of the kingdom') as the biological descendants of Abraham (the Judahites) who, despite their privileged status, rejected Jesus/Yeshua as the Messiah and were thus excluded from the 'new' Kingdom of Heaven.
• Professing Believers: Those with an outward profession of faith who lack genuine saving faith or spiritual fruit, warning that religious heritage alone does not guarantee entry into the Kingdom.

The same logic used for the parables of the unprofitable and unprofitable servants. Just because one is a servant of a King does not guarantee they truly are loyal and would give their entire life for him, to his will etc. These types were just hired hands who were in it for the sustenance and gain, eventhough the chores might have been done correctly and on time. They were not genuine King or God-fearing servants as genuine believers. They did not have the regenerated heart condition I'm afraid for the genuine article and his Kingdom.

And you believed in Epi's outlandish explanation that fits perfectly into his elitist gospel rendition, hook line and sinker.

Maybe someone special and precious, above all, above my pay grade can get the hook out of your mouth, for good.

And blessings to you too!!

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Then you better watch out, because I didn't say that, you did. I brought up that he doesn't recognize that Jesus took away our sin, and that Jesus is our sacrifice. Are you a bearer of false witness?

Even by your own admission you still sin. But you excuse it as being sin not unto death. But even in your categorizing of sin, you still sin. How can you not see that?

 

[MostlyConfused]

That's a clever cop-out

While I haven’t read all of your posts, I‘ve read a few, and the ones I’ve read are the very DEFINITION of a clever cop-out or put another way, a deal to cheat death.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Is it your claim that @Judge Hardcastle is not a Christian?

Isn't saying sounds like they've never heard of Jesus Christ another way of telling them they are not a believer?

I'm wondering why she can be growing up into the ever-increasing traits of the Spirit and be legitimately born again but I can't.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

The problem I had was I was in church for 30 years BEFORE this first stage happened, and I'm very afraid for those in the church who still have no power over sin.

You were not born again. You yourself said so.

That's why you didn't have any power over sin.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

But yet it says they are children of the kingdom, and servants of the king (from the kigdom of heaven), and, unprofitable servants (again, from the kingdom of heaven).

Israel.

 

[marks]

Jesus spoke His parables to the Israelites, God's chosen nation. God made a covenant with the nation, and the terms of the covenant apply to the nation.

Taking what was meant for a certain chosen people group and applying it individually to gentiles who were never in that covenant will not lead to truth.

Parables with good servants and unfaithful servants are speaking of those Israelites who were or were not faithful. Outer darkness is not a destination of the redeemed Christians, that's absurd, having nothing to do with the Gospel.

Those who were part of the chosen nation but did not believe in Jesus are not included in the "Israel of God", those Israelites who believe. Being a child of Abraham alone is insufficient to save, Jesus taught this over and over.

The servant who was forgiven his debt, only to find it reinstated, is the one described in Ezekiel 18, he turns from righteousness to wickedness, and his righteousness is forgotten. This was Israel's covenant with God. Israel. And even so it was mean to preserve Israel until the coming of faith in Christ. Do you cling to a covenant that was never made with you, and that was not intended to remain even for those with whom it was made?

Will you try to blend it with the simplicity that is in Christ, frustrating the grace of God?

I find so often that the reason for disagreement over particular passages has more to do with one's overall theology than it does with the wordings of those passages, as some are prone towards interpreting according to what they think of some other passages, even if the one in question doesn't actually support it.

Much love!