The Case for a Post-Tribulation Second Coming

[CrowCross]

No. Consider eternal life.

Then you agree that christians will be killed in the tribulation.

 

[RandyDawson]

Then you agree that christians will be killed in the tribulation.

Those born again during the tribulation and those that were left behind who came back to the Lord during the tribulation, yes.

The faithful will be removed.

 

[RandyDawson]

Revelation 3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

1 Thessalonians 5:9God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

NOT appointed unto wrath actually means: NOT appointed unto wrath

 

[Truth7t7]

No. Consider eternal life.

God's "Two Witnesses" Rule The World During The Future Great Tribulation​

Many put the future (Man Of Sin) (The Beast) as the ruler of earth during the 3.5 year tribulation "wrong"!

It will be God's (Two Witnesses) that rule in bringing all plagues in torturing the evil world, a literal remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, God's in control!

Revelation 11:3-6 & 10KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

The Future (Two Witnesses) "All Plagues" As Often As They Will Representing "God"

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Is this not tied in with Zech 14?

4On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half the mountain moving to the north and half to the south.

No. How can that be? How do you reconcile your understanding of Zechariah 14 with these passages...

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

1 Thessalonians 5:9God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

NOT appointed unto wrath actually means: NOT appointed unto wrath

Temptation is not wrath. Try again.

The 1 Thessalonians 5:9 verse relates to not being appointed to the wrath that will occur on the day Jesus returns unexpectedly as a thief in the night. Paul was referring back to what he wrote a little earlier.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Who will be attending the Marriage Supper of the Lamb?

All believers from all-time. Why do you ask?

 

[Truth7t7]

Revelation 3:10
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

1 Thessalonians 5:9God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

NOT appointed unto wrath actually means: NOT appointed unto wrath

I've had it with you, you foolish little child. I was asking you a genuine question in order to understand your view better and this is the response I get? Referring to my great God and Savior Jesus Christ as "god"? You are evil! You need to grow up. You are pathetic.

Again, read the simple and clear words before your eyes, God's plagues upon the wicked world will passover the Church on earth, those that have been sealed by God the Holy Spirit won't be harmed, Eph 1:13, 4:30

The future 42 month great tribulation in plagues brought by the (Two Witnesses) will be a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, and God's Church on earth will be protected

Exodus 12:12-13KJV
12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord.
13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

Revelation 9:4KJV
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Revelation 22:4KJV
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Gods Divine protection of the Church on earth during the tribulation, the hour of earths temptation

The Church on earth is instructed to enter their dwelling, until the Lords indignation is past, just like the passover in Egypt

Isaiah 26:20-21KJV
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Revelation 3:10KJV
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You do know the pre-tribbers agree with this verse as written?

No, they don't. They don't agree that the gathering of believers will occur post-trib. They don't agree that Matthew 24:29-39 is the same event as 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4.

 

[CrowCross]

Those born again during the tribulation and those that were left behind who came back to the Lord during the tribulation, yes.

The faithful will be removed.

I'm not following what you are saying.

 

[CrowCross]

No, they don't. They don't agree that the gathering of believers will occur post-trib. They don't agree that Matthew 24:29-39 is the same event as 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:4.

With all due respect...you don't know what a pre-tribber actually believes.

It is true...Matt 24:29-39 is expressed in an entirely different manner than 1 Thes 4. You do know that?

 

[RandyDawson]

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

The faithful will remain with the Lord and will be taken out so they don't experience the testings and trials which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

God is a faithful Father and those that are faithful to Him will not be left here to be tormented by satan's wrath.
Those that miss the rescue will have to, but they missed it of their own fault, not the Lord.

Some apparently believe God is mean and it's His will for His faithful to be tormented by the devil.
The ones not escaping are those not faithful to the Lord. That's not speaking of His faithful.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

With all due respect...you don't know what a pre-tribber actually believes.

Of course I do. It's not that complicated.

It is true...Matt 24:29-39 is expressed in an entirely different manner than 1 Thes 4. You do know that?

Not every passage about the second coming of Christ contains all the same details about that event. You do know that?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The faithful will remain with the Lord and will be taken out so they don't experience the testings and trials which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Why would that be? Jesus prayed that would not happen, but that His followers would be protected. The Greek phrase "tereo ek", translated as "keep from" in Revelation 3:10 is only found within one other verse in scripture. This one...

15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep (tereo) them from (ek) the evil one.

Jesus prayed for the protection of His followers, not for them to be taken out of the world to avoid testings and trials. Do you not trust that God can protect His people from testings and trials? Do you not know that He allows us to go through testings and trials in order to refine us and make us into stronger Christians?

Romans 5:3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope.

Paul said that we should "glory in tribulations" because it "produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope". But, you think we should be taken off of the earth instead to avoid it?

God is a faithful Father and those that are faithful to Him will not be left here to be tormented by satan's wrath.

Satan has been persecuting and trying to torment Christians for almost 2,000 years now. Is God not faithful because He has allowed that to happen?

Those that miss the rescue will have to, but they missed it of their own fault, not the Lord.

What are you talking about?

Some apparently believe God is mean and it's His will for His faithful to be tormented by the devil.

Is that your understanding about the many Christians who have been persecuted over the years? Was that because God is mean and didn't care about them? Was John the Baptist's head cut off because God didn't care enough about him to prevent that? Was Stephen stoned to death because God is mean and didn't care enough to save him from being killed?

The ones not escaping are those not faithful to the Lord. That's not speaking of His faithful.

No idea of what you're talking about. When it comes to escaping God's wrath, Paul talked about that in terms of the wrath that will occur on the day Jesus returns (1 Thessalonians 5:2-3). Believers will escape by way of being changed to put on bodily immortality and being caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Unbelievers "shall not escape" and will be destroyed with "sudden destruction" on that day.

 

[Sel@h]

Then you agree that christians will be killed in the tribulation.

Yes, I agree. .… but their rewards from our Father for the eternity will be many.

Revelation 2:7-11 (NKJV) 7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’ 8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, ‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: 9 “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and [I know] the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but [are] a synagogue of Satan. 10 “Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw [some] of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’

James 1:12 (NKJV) Blessed [is] the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

2 Timothy 4:7-8 (NKJV) 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

1 Peter 5:4 (NKJV) and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.

Colossians 1:12 (NKJV) giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.

 

[RandyDawson]

Jesus prayed that would not happen, but that His followers would be protected.

Yes His faithful shall be protected by being removed from the earth.

15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep (tereo) them from (ek) the evil one.

That's during the normal course of life as we are to go out and preach the gospel to the world.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 tells us there will be a catching away

Paul said that we should "glory in tribulations" because it "produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope". But, you think we should be taken off of the earth instead to avoid it?

Then you can have a great time staying here being tormented by satan's wrath during the tribulation.
I'm going with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and Revelation 3:10

I'll be very happy with my choice, and I hope you are happy with yours!

satan has been persecuting and trying to torment Christians for almost 2,000 years now. Is God not faithful because He has allowed that to happen?

1 John 5:18
He that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and the wicked one toucheth him not

Haven't you heard? Jesus gave us power and authority over the enemy?

Luke 10:19
Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, nothing shall by any means hurt you.

What are you talking about?

Those that miss the rescue will have to, but they missed it of their own fault, not the Lord.

Is that your understanding about the many Christians who have been persecuted over the years? Was that because God is mean and didn't care about them? Was John the Baptist's head cut off because God didn't care enough about him to prevent that? Was Stephen stoned to death because God is mean and didn't care enough to save him from being killed?

What I believe and walk in is based on God's promises, not what others experience.

No idea of what you're talking about.

That's obvious.