Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?
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I do read the Bible. But unlike you, I understand it. That is what lead me to question the name of the process towards holiness. If your mind was open to the Spirit, instead of closed in hatred, you would want the true meaning of the Word of God like I do, instead of only studying the doctrines of man - theology. I didn't question the process, just the name of it. So I asked God, and He spoke and said, "glorification." Now the true name of the process opens my mind even further, than the old sanctification of setting us apart ever did. It is Jesus who is in control of the process in us as we abide in Him. He doesn't keep "setting us apart." That was done at justification when we were cleansed of all unrighteousness, 1 Corinthians 6:11 below. Sanctification is merely setting us apart from the world to become like Jesus - holy and perfect. But what happens in that process is glorification. You must believe the heresy that glorification only happens after we die, taught by the Catholics and kept in Reformed theology. That is the same heresy that only Jesus was sinless, and we will always sin unto after we are dead. Wrong. This is why He came, to set us free from sin, and destroy the works of the devil.
John 17:20-23
20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
He's not giving us sanctity; He's giving us GLORY. Now!
Romans 8:29-30. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
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Revelation 22:11 shows that no one changes for the better after we die. We stay in the condition in which we were at the moment of death.
Jesus is the Creator. Why in the world would you think He cannot recreate our nature? It is why He died, and you are missing the significance of that sacrifice and what it means in our lives. Read Romans 6. The "old man" is the sin nature we were born with due to Adam's willful sin unto death. He caused death to come upon the whole world. The old sin nature is crucified, and resurrected righteous. All we have to do is repent, realizing we can never be righteous on our own; not with the sin nature still alive in us. It must die.
Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faiths. The first faith of Romans 1:17 with Jesus as the Author is His removal of the worst of the two types of sins - lawlessness. 1 John 3 is only about this type of sin unto eternal death. It's removal puts us on the path to eternal life. No one reaches heaven with their sin nature still intact. Otherwise, we would sin in heaven, and there is no more sacrifice for willful sins. Jesus died for our past sins to cleanse our sin nature. That is why John 15:3 says we are clean before He then as the Finisher of our faith moves on to the long process of maturing each and every fruit of the Spirit, to make us holy, the higher level of righteousness that is perfection, 2 Peter 1:2-11. Verse 10 shows the end result of the maturing of all the steps in verses 5-7 - "never stumble." Where 1 John 3 produces righteousness in us, 2 Peter 1:2-11 produces holiness. And all we have to do is first repent, acknowledging that we cannot be righteous on our own no matter how many times we try. The old definition of repentance as us turning away from sin, just doesn't work in the long run. True repentance is acknowledging that we can never be righteous on our own, and our need for Jesus to remove our sin nature and create a new clean one. That is what Jesus does to make us born again of the Spirit. It is the Spirit of Christ that in now in control of our new nature, letting us partake of the divine nature of God, and fit for heaven.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Rev 22:
[11] He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
1) I never made that claim.
2) Appears you just contradicted your first comment.
Bold claim… your evidence?
Actually…the man whose Body DIES IN Heartful Belief…
IS the moment / time THAT MANS SOUL IS “SAV-ED”….and his spirit Quickened (born again)…
A Heartful believers “SPIRIT” IS born Again… AFTER his body Dies..
1 Cor 15:
[36] Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
Glory to God
Taken
Wow, now that is a new one for me. You believe Romans 6:5-23 is all after we die?
Which denomination teaches that? Its pathetic.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Verily i do say unto thee
people are capable of beleiving just about anything .
Sheep gonna beleive JESUS and stay well planted in the scriptures for ourselves .
And do remember
cursed is he whose hope be in men
blessed is he whose hope be in GOD thus in THE CHRIST OF GOD JESUS . s
people are capable of beleiving just about anything .
Sheep gonna beleive JESUS and stay well planted in the scriptures for ourselves .
And do remember
cursed is he whose hope be in men
blessed is he whose hope be in GOD thus in THE CHRIST OF GOD JESUS . s
Taken
Well-Known Member
[6] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
[7] For he that is dead is freed from sin.
[8] Now if we be dead with Christ…
The very Scriptures you referenced…!!
What do you think “crucified” means?
Let's test your interpretation with the rest of the counsel of scripture to see if it's correct:
1 John 3:2
2...what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that when Christ appears,a we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.
1 Corinthians 15:35-37
35“How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36You fool! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37And what you sow is not the body that will be, but just a seed
1 Corinthians 15:40
40There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the splendor of the heavenly bodies is of one degree, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is of another.
I'm seeing a difference here in the body that is sown in death and the body that is raised to life. Where are you getting this teaching that "no one changes after we die. We stay in the condition we were at the moment of death"?
It's really hard to talk to someone who is not born again about spiritual things. Such things need to be spiritually discerned, as the bible says. Because it is the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth.......but we need to first of all actually have Him in reality, not just have participated in or undergone a ritual.
Catholicism puts the cart before the horse and replaces spiritual realities and the simplicity of Christ with rituals. Not always in theory perhaps, but in actual fact it is what they do. BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT THE SPIRIT OF GOD. And the Spirit blows where it willeth, not where man willeth.
Catholicism teaches that one is born again, regenerated and enters the state of grace, is saved in other words, by the sacrament of baptism. Which is not what Jesus and the apostles taught. According to scripture it is through faith in Christ one is born again.......and baptism must follow faith, not precede it. You don't receive faith in Christ by being baptized........you receive faith in Christ by His Spirit....it is a living reality that one actually experiences both initially and as an ongoing very real and living two way relationship with the Lord (in which we may also taste the powers of the world to come).....having been reconciled and reconnected to Him thereby. Water baptism is a witness and testimony of what you already received.....faith in Christ and a participation in His death and resurrection....rebirth.
But for some reason he doesn't remove the other type of sin in your theology. You still sin.
Where does the sin you still do come from?
You are always confusing righteousness and holiness. The Catholic church has a place in the world....it is a cultural religion that keeps evil at bay. In countries that have abandoned Catholicism, sinful behaviour sky-rockets.
Catholicism treats people as children...and this helps for many to stay simple and child-like in their faith. For a long time Catholicsm forbade reading the bible to avoid what we see in the Protestant church. There is no perfect way for imperfect people. So by expunging the higher aspiration among the potentially hypocritical and unlearned among them, they opted for a simple piety...meaning the feeling of God through the senses. Catholicism is very easy because even sensual people can get it. Of course it is not spiritual....but neither is MOST Protestantism. Preserving tamim (guilelessness) in the end is MORE important than knowing God for us individually in judgment....because we will all be judged based on righteousness....not holiness. Those who know God but act without a child-like innocence God calls LAWLESS. It is no wonder that so many evangelicals will be rejected because they spoke against the righteous, even condemning their Catholic brethren.
The saints rule over the righteous in eternity.
Pretenders think that being born again is the ticket to a sure inheritance...and that they can now judge others based on their assumed status. But grace is deceitful for the ego driven people who claim to have a higher righteousness based on their beliefs.
So the very worst believers are evangelicals.....also a few among the best. The reformation is only good for a tiny remnant....the rest being puffed up by religious hubris based on the great delusion SENT BY GOD.
For myself, I seek to love all my brothers....no matter the tradition. I can only go as far as my own behaviour allows me to be a witness of something more.
Here is wisdom... If I hope to be a saint and I condemn those who I hope to one day rule over....then I will not be worthy of them. If however I make the distinction between holiness and righteousness based on mercy, and that I have been given much grace, then I want that grace to be beneficial to the meek, the lowly, the oppressed. To serve others and not my own sense of self importance. (like we see among evangelicals). Would not my candidature be taken more seriously if the ones I was destined to rule over didn't think I was a judgemental religious bigot?
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You are always confusing a declaration of righteousness with righteous behavior/holiness.
Righteousness is, both, a legal declaration and a way of life.
Don't you realize your religion is a result of your ability, now, to read and the interpret the Bible for yourself?
Only a dogmatic carnal believers thinks like that. The bible informs me of a God that is near.....so I seek the Lord and connect with HIM. You are only connecting to a theory about God. Because you don't understand the bible even as you look for salvation in it...you would be better off becoming Catholic, where your lack of spiritual understanding could be used to better use.
Pretender, or not, it is only the born again person that can see and enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:5-6
5“...no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit.
You got the repentance part, the 'flesh born of flesh' part. I mean as far as the effort of the flesh to be righteous goes. But you lack the 'spirit born of Spirit' part because you have rejected faith in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin. And have rejected faith in the blood of Christ for the turning away of God's wrath that you deserve for your unrighteousness. Your unrighteousness remains on your account because it has not been forgiven and his wrath appeased through faith in the blood of Christ.
Scripture is your judge and by which you are condemned. Repentance is not enough to see and enter the kingdom of God. You must also be born of the Spirit. That doesn't happen in your theology because you don't believe in the blood of Christ for the propitiation of God's wrath and the expiation of your sin. You are relying on your works of righteousness to turn away God's wrath and have your sins forgiven. Won't work. You aren't righteous enough to turn away God's wrath, though you are certain that you are.
You are actually the deceived one, not us. Honest people know that they are not righteous enough, and have not been righteous enough, to be received by God on that basis. Only the forgiveness of God and being given a declaration of right standing with him as a free gift of his grace can make you right with God. Trying to get that through your efforts to be righteous isn't good enough. Honest people know this. Proud people do not. Even if you could be righteous enough, there is the matter of your past unrighteousness that prevents you from being at peace with God.
Do you know any of such? Being born of the Spirit is based on HOLINESS....into a race into CHRISTLIKENESS.
In your indoctrination you equate being born again with "getting saved". But those who are born again will be judged much harder than those who are not. Because to whom much is given MORE is required. But the glory is also greater.
To be sure entering into the kingdom life and power is the gospel in full resolution. But God's mercy extends far beyond those who He calls into holiness.
Exactly. Unless you are born again you cannot perceive or enter the spiritual realm to walk as Jesus walked....without sin. Those who say they abide in Christ walk as Jesus walked.....by the power of the Spirit.
As soon as you bring sin into the equation you are fully out of the sphere of spiritual life and holiness. In fact it is a MUCH worse sin to sin in holiness.
It is BECAUSE I know the spiritual walk that I expose pretenders such as yourself who declare themselves forgiven and righteous based on reading the bible. ANY religion is better than that mess.
We have a higher righteousness than you because the righteousness by which we stand righteous before God does not come from our works (they aren't good enough for that). We receive a declaration of righteousness, one that is not our own, as a gift of God's grace through faith in Christ's blood for the turning away of God's wrath, and for the expiation of sin. You have neither of those in your theology because you don't believe in the blood of Christ to accomplish either of those things for you. Though the requirement for such it is quite clearly and plainly taught in scripture.
Romans 3:25
25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Ephesians 1:7
7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses
Your redemption, your turning away of the wrath of God is through your works, not through faith in his blood as taught above.
Your former sins remain because you do not have faith in the blood of Christ for propitiation and a turning away of God's wrath and the forgiving of your sin. You claim to turn away God's wrath and receive redemption/forgiveness through your works. The offering of your works will no more be accepted on your behalf than the work of Cain's hands in the earth were accepted by God. The offering that God desires and has commanded is blood, not works, for reconciliation and appeasement. That doesn't mean you don't have to do righteous works. It means your righteous works are not what appeases God and makes you right with him. The blood of Christ, received by faith, does that.
Based on faith. We have a higher righteousness than you because the righteousness in which we stand before God does not come from our works but rather from faith in the blood of Christ. That's hardly a matter of ego. There is no boast in receiving a declaration of righteousness through faith in Christ's blood rather than the boast of one's righteous actions, as there is in your theology. Yours is actually the ego-driven theology, not ours. There is no abasement in your theology.
Okay, then explain this:
Galatians 3:2-4
2Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith?
5Does God lavish His Spirit on you and work miracles among you because you practice the law, or because you hear and believe?
You say it is by works of the law that you receive the Spirit. Paul says it is by faith in what you hear that you receive the Spirit. You are the one who has the theology that is contrary to the plain words of the Bible. The Spirit is not received by keeping commandments. If it was, the law would have certainly imparted eternal life:
Galatians 3:21
21...if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come from the law.
The law was given to expose your sin and condemn you, not make you righteous. And for the purpose of steering you toward justification through faith in God's promise of a Son, and away from reliance on justification through works of the law:
Galatians 3:22
22But the Scripture pronounces all things confined by sin, so that by faith in Jesus Christ the promise might be given to those who believe.
The law of God's commandments that you think makes you righteous actually just shows you to be unrighteous, because you don't keep all of them, all of the time, for that's what you must do for the law of commandments to be your righteousness:
Deuteronomy 6:25
25And if we are careful to observe every one of these commandments before the LORD our God, as He has commanded us, then that will be our righteousness.”
And because you don't have that righteousness, you are under the curse of the law:
Galatians 3:10
10All who rely on works of the law are under a curse. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”c
The law was given to condemn you in your sins, so that you might not rely on the righteousness of the law that you don't have to be declared righteous but instead be steered toward reliance on God's grace and mercy in the forgiveness of sin and the turning away of his wrath through Jesus' sacrifice for justification. A sacrifice received by faith, not works.
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