Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[Taken]

How many times have I been saved? When I've endured to the end of my life I will be. But I've been walking in the Spirit for very close to 50 years. I KNOW where I'm going when I die, and I can hardly wait.

As for what you wrote, I have no idea what you mean by mortally alive. Mortal is dead, so dead and alive at the same time? Maybe if you tell me if you belong to a denomination, I can google what your denomination believes. I'm not in a denomination. I believe my soul and spirit was born again on Feb. 9, 1977 when I had already been in church all my life for about 30 years. I've been walking in the Spirit ever since.

Seems you stated a precise Time and ONLY Once…

But yet you imply OSAS… is a fallacy.

Why?

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

1 John 3 is only about sins unto death that He takes away in full instantly.

There is no sin unto death for the born again believing person. All sin that was unto death in the old covenant, because it could not be forgiven in the old covenant, can be forgiven in this New Covenant:

Acts 13:38-39
38...through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

You keep talking about sins unto death for the believer that the passage above says are not sins unto death anymore. So it is impossible that John is talking about committing sins that are unto death in 1 John 3. Impossible.

So much for OSAS.

If you believe that you cannot commit the sins you say are unto death, how is that not OSAS?

 

[Marvelloustime]

Anyone who mocks those who preach the one true gospel of JESUS , IS SERIOUSLY decieved . as is EPI .
Tell me dear sister , who and what DID the first apostels preach .
JESUS and the dire necessity TO HAVE TO BELEIVE ON HIM .
And what has epi done to me time and time again for telling HIM one must FIRST BELIEVE ON JESUS . railed and mocked .
But take a seat sister .
CAUSE even when i told an atheist of his dire need to repent and BELEIVE ON JESUS
the same man called EPI called it RELGIIOUS extremism .
SO WHO YA THINK he would have called religoius extremists . IF YA SAID JESUS and later the apotels
THEN SPOT RIGHT YOU ARE SISTER . EPI calls GOD a relgious extremists .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

Anyone who mocks those who preach the one true gospel of JESUS , IS SERIOUSLY decieved . as is EPI .
Tell me dear sister , who and what DID the first apostels preach .
JESUS and the dire necessity TO HAVE TO BELEIVE ON HIM .
And what has epi done to me time and time again for telling HIM one must FIRST BELIEVE ON JESUS . railed and mocked .
But take a seat sister .
CAUSE even when i told an atheist of his dire need to repent and BELEIVE ON JESUS
the same man called EPI called it RELGIIOUS extremism .
SO WHO YA THINK he would have called religoius extremists . IF YA SAID JESUS and later the apotels
THEN SPOT RIGHT YOU ARE SISTER . EPI calls GOD a relgious extremists .

@amigo de christo

 

[ProDeo]

Only a dogmatic carnal believers thinks like that. The bible informs me of a God that is near.....so I seek the Lord and connect with HIM. You are only connecting to a theory about God. Because you don't understand the bible even as you look for salvation in it...you would be better off becoming Catholic, where your lack of spiritual understanding could be used to better use.

Hi Epi, if I were you I would @Judge Hardcastle words about the forgiveness our sins through Jesus sacrifice on the cross very serious, it's the base of our salvation, it's only from there on we can start our walk in the Spirit (through the Holy Spirit working in us) and workout our holiness and salvation. Knowing you for so long you have it upside down. -- and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins [Hebr 9:22)

Luke 22:15 And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.
Luk 22:16 For I tell you I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”
Luk 22:17 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves.
Luk 22:18 For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”
Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
Luk 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

Jesus freely expressed His emotions, not as a scientist as you are used to suppress your emotions as a scientist, as you recently said.

Jes 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
Jes 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.
Jes 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Jes 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
Jes 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?
Jes 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
Jes 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Jes 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
Jes 53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.

Basic Christianity, the milk.

 

[mailmandan]

Jesus spoke His parables to the Israelites, God's chosen nation. God made a covenant with the nation, and the terms of the covenant apply to the nation.

Taking what was meant for a certain chosen people group and applying it individually to gentiles who were never in that covenant will not lead to truth.

Amen! This calls for us to rightly divide the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15) In context, Matthew 8:12, outlines a key point about the inclusive nature of the kingdom of heaven and the importance of faith over lineage. Jesus states that while many from east and west will be invited to join Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom, many Jews the "sons of the kingdom" will be excluded and cast into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. This emphasizes that it is not just being of Jewish lineage that guarantees entry into the kingdom, but rather faith in Jesus Christ that determines one's place. This verse is part of a larger narrative where Jesus has just healed a centurion's servant, despite the centurion's non-Jewish background. Jesus' statement highlights that faith, not ethnicity or lineage, is the key to salvation. So, "sons of the kingdom" here refers to the Israelites, traditionally considered the chosen nation of God and not sons/children of God by faith in Jesus Christ.

Parables with good servants and unfaithful servants are speaking of those Israelites who were or were not faithful. Outer darkness is not a destination of the redeemed Christians, that's absurd, having nothing to do with the Gospel.

Those who were part of the chosen nation but did not believe in Jesus are not included in the "Israel of God", those Israelites who believe. Being a child of Abraham alone is insufficient to save, Jesus taught this over and over.

Amen! The children of Israel (Oh Israel - Isaiah 43:1) were called the Lord’s servants, but they were not all saved. Isaiah 43:10 - "You are My witnesses, says the Lord," And My servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, nor shall there be after Me.

Leviticus 25:55 - For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. Yet God later destroyed those who did not believe. (Jude 1:5)

Nehemiah 1:6 - please let Your ear be attentive and Your eyes open, that You may hear the prayer of Your servant which I pray before You now, day and night, for the children of Israel Your servants, and confess the sins of the children of Israel which we have sinned against You. Both my father’s house and I have sinned.

Outer darkness is for the unredeemed and not for redeemed Christians. It's also not heaven's suburb as someone once suggested.

The servant who was forgiven his debt, only to find it reinstated, is the one described in Ezekiel 18, he turns from righteousness to wickedness, and his righteousness is forgotten. This was Israel's covenant with God. Israel. And even so it was mean to preserve Israel until the coming of faith in Christ. Do you cling to a covenant that was never made with you, and that was not intended to remain even for those with whom it was made?

Ezekiel is written to Israel under the old covenant of law. In Ezekiel 18:29, we read - But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right? But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?

In Ezekiel 33:13, we read - When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die. Did you read that? "If he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS." This is the heart of the matter here. This is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith.

*The New Testament states in Romans 10:3 - "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that BELIEVES.

Will you try to blend it with the simplicity that is in Christ, frustrating the grace of God?

Galatians 2:21 - I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

I find so often that the reason for disagreement over particular passages has more to do with one's overall theology than it does with the wordings of those passages, as some are prone towards interpreting according to what they think of some other passages, even if the one in question doesn't actually support it.

Much love!

We need to read scripture in context, rightly divide the word of truth and properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine. Sadly, certain folks only seem to be interested in trying to force scripture to "conform" to their preconceived beliefs, systematic theology or biased church doctrine. We need to apply exegesis and not eisegesis when interpreting scripture.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Paul is saying you receive the Spirit, by which God does miraculous things, by the hearing of faith (believing what you heard), not by the righteousness of works.

If you have faith that is even just the size of a tiny seed you can alter even the physical, temporal landscape and will do greater works than Jesus went around doing, as He said you would. If you aren’t doing greater works than He went around doing, you should assume you don’t have even the smallest bit of the KIND of faith being talked about. You have a measure of faith, yes, but in this manner: I DO believe, please help my UNbelief.

 

[soberxp]

If you have faith that is even just the size of a tiny seed you can alter even the physical, temporal landscape and will do greater works than Jesus went around doing, as He said you would. If you aren’t doing greater works than He went around doing, you should assume you don’t have even the smallest bit of the KIND of faith being talked about. You have a measure of faith, yes, but in this manner: I DO believe, please help my UNbelief.

Paul maybe trying to tell us that we can't have righteousness of works before we receive the Spirit.

Others way to tell that is we can't do math 1+1=2 before we receive the math spirit.

 

[mailmandan]

I will answer in a separate post, need a nap first

2Sam 12:13 David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die.

So, your speculations (presented as truth) about adultery and murder are unforgivable are false, David committed them both, repented and he did not die.

Amen and well said! Now in regard to a nap, our childhood punishment is now our adult pleasure -- NAPS.

 

[mailmandan]

You don't seem to realize that Calvinism teaches that the person who sins willfully is showing themselves to not be born again. That is completely consistent with 1 John 3:6-10. So no argument is being made in Calvinism that a born again person can willfully sin and be OSAS. Free Grace doctrine makes that argument, not Calvinism. The willfully sinning person in Calvinism is not born again to begin with for him to somehow be OSAS.

Whenever I run across folk's who strongly oppose OSAS (and in some cases even seem to be suffering from a severe case of anti-OSAS derangement syndrome), Calvinism typically seems to be their boogeyman. Now in regard to OSAS, I actually prefer the terms "preservation of the saints" (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1) or "eternal security of the believer" (John 6:37-40; Ephesians 1:13-14) over the term OSAS because of all the negative connotations that typically get attached to it (like a license to sin/license for immorality etc..) by those who strongly oppose it.

 

[soberxp]

Whenever I run across folk's who strongly oppose OSAS (and in some cases even seem to be suffering from a severe case of anti-OSAS derangement syndrome), Calvinism typically seems to be their boogeyman. Now in regard to OSAS, I actually prefer the terms "preservation of the saints" (Psalm 37:28; Jude 1:1) or "eternal security of the believer" (John 6:37-40; Ephesians 1:13-14) over the term OSAS because of all the negative connotations that typically get attached to it (like a license to sin/license for immorality etc..) by those who strongly oppose it.

"Once saved always saved" is a word game,If a person was once saved, then why would they lose their salvation? This can only show that this person had not yet been saved.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

If you have faith that is even just the size of a tiny seed you can alter even the physical, temporal landscape and will do greater works than Jesus went around doing, as He said you would. If you aren’t doing greater works than He went around doing, you should assume you don’t have even the smallest bit of the KIND of faith being talked about. You have a measure of faith, yes, but in this manner: I DO believe, please help my UNbelief.

The smallest seed of faith will not change the gospel of justification by faith in Jesus' blood to justification by the righteousness of your behavior.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Paul maybe trying to tell us that we can't have righteousness of works before we receive the Spirit.

Others way to tell that is we can't do math 1+1=2 before we receive the math spirit.

Are you saying no one can do what God sees as right in how they treat their neighbor and that every person on earth sleeps with other peoples spouses?

 

[Hope2day4ever]

I am in a state that seems to follow Satan's lie about that.
The flood happened for a reason, Jesus died for us on that cross for a reason, we are to life as perfect as we can
but we are not perfect only God is perfect because God is a spirit not a person. They can have you internalize everything but if we follow scripture, and can renew your faith with up to 3 baptisims the moment you do it releases all that anger in you and it becomes a false life you lived.
Remind your pastor of these scriptures and let us know what he says, Romans 3:23, 1 John 1:10 and tell us what was said. If we are all pretending we are perfect, than those people wouldn't need Jesus or God
That is so sad don't you agree?

 

[MostlyConfused]

Now in regard to a nap, our childhood punishment is now our adult pleasure -- NAPS.

That’s quite funny

 

[soberxp]

Are you saying no one can do what God sees as right in how they treat their neighbor and that every person on earth sleeps with other peoples spouses?

Jesus acknowledges the natural morality of worldly people (Matthew 5:46-47; Luke 6:32-34): Jesus points out that even tax collectors, Gentiles, and sinners (or "enemies," as you put it) can, by their very nature, "love those who love them," "do good to those who do good to them," "greet their brothers," or "lend to those like them." This shows that ordinary people indeed possess a basic ethical capacity.

Jesus points out the transcendent standard of faith (Matthew 5:44-45, 48; Luke 6:27-28, 35-36): Merely doing "what even sinners do" is not enough. Jesus requires His disciples to transcend this natural instinct—to love enemies, bless those who curse, and lend without expecting repayment—so as to manifest the perfection and mercy of the Heavenly Father.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Are you saying no one can do what God sees as right in how they treat their neighbor and that every person on earth sleeps with other peoples spouses?

Doing just one thing wrong erases any hope of being counted as righteous by the things you do right.

 

[soberxp]

I am in a state that seems to follow Satan's lie about that.
The flood happened for a reason, Jesus died for us on that cross for a reason, we are to life as perfect as we can
but we are not perfect only God is perfect because God is a spirit not a person. They can have you internalize everything but if we follow scripture, and can renew your faith with up to 3 baptisims the moment you do it releases all that anger in you and it becomes a false life you lived.
Remind your pastor of these scriptures and let us know what he says, Romans 3:23, 1 John 1:10 and tell us what was said. If we are all pretending we are perfect, than those people wouldn't need Jesus or God
That is so sad don't you agree?

Are you referring to water baptism, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the baptism of fire?

 

[mailmandan]

"Once saved always saved" is a word game,If a person was once saved, then why would they lose their salvation?

Folks who oppose OSAS typically say, "too much sinning, not enough working, stop believing."

This can only show that this person had not yet been saved.

1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Remind your pastor of these scriptures and let us know what he says, Romans 3:23, 1 John 1:10 and tell us what was said.

No man says he has never, ever sinned and has not fallen short of the glory of God in perfection. It wouldn’t even be possible for a Christian, (let alone an unbeliever who treats his neighbor right). The Christian couldn’t say it because he knows the glory of God is perfection and he knows how he treated his neighbor in the past. He could never say he never sinned, he even knows the perfection standard includes even anger in his heart and even unclean THOUGHTS, apart from the actual doing.
As for the second verse, if we DID say we had never sinned and never fallen short ofGods’ perfect glory, we would be a liar who hadn’t even received the down payment of the Spirit, never mind the whole measure by being crucified.