Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[Episkopos]

Hi Epi, if I were you I would @Judge Hardcastle words about the forgiveness our sins through Jesus sacrifice on the cross very serious, it's the base of our salvation, it's only from there on we can start our walk in the Spirit (through the Holy Spirit working in us) and workout our holiness and salvation. Knowing you for so long you have it upside down. -- and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins [Hebr 9:22)

Luke 22:15 And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.
Luk 22:16 For I tell you I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”
Luk 22:17 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves.
Luk 22:18 For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”
Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
Luk 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

Jesus freely expressed His emotions, not as a scientist as you are used to suppress your emotions as a scientist, as you recently said.

Jes 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
Jes 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.
Jes 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Jes 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
Jes 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?
Jes 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
Jes 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Jes 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
Jes 53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.

Basic Christianity, the milk.

Your own self-interest blinds you to the true agenda...that of wanting an ongoing guaranteed forgiveness, basically an immunity from prosecution for sin. What the unlearned don't realize is that there is more than one kind of sin. And iniquity (based on naming and claiming) is the worst sin of all....the like of which religious pretenders indulge in gleefully. If you don't realize that those who teach such things are condemned by the Lord, I can't help you.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Jesus acknowledges the natural morality of worldly people (Matthew 5:46-47; Luke 6:32-34): Jesus points out that even tax collectors, Gentiles, and sinners (or "enemies," as you put it) can, by their very nature, "love those who love them," "do good to those who do good to them," "greet their brothers," or "lend to those like them." This shows that ordinary people indeed possess a basic ethical capacity.

Jesus points out the transcendent standard of faith (Matthew 5:44-45, 48; Luke 6:27-28, 35-36): Merely doing "what even sinners do" is not enough. Jesus requires His disciples to transcend this natural instinct—to love enemies, bless those who curse, and lend without expecting repayment—so as to manifest the perfection and mercy of the Heavenly Father.

Exactly! But now you are moving beyond “the meek will inherit the earth” and into the territory of walking in the Spirit in His holiness rather than just treating your neighbor as well as you treat yourself. You don’t do away with the first to establish the last - He WILL be merciful with the merciful, if you plant in treating your neighbor in the way God says is right, you WILL reap mercy from Him.

The transcendent standard is the one that is impossible with men. In comparison to that transcedent standard, THAT is the one in which your treating your neighbor as God sees is right is like filthy rags.

 

[MostlyConfused]

No man says he has never, ever sinned and has not fallen short of the glory of God in perfection. It wouldn’t even be possible for a Christian, (let alone an unbeliever who treats his neighbor right). The Christian couldn’t say it because he knows the glory of God is perfection and he knows how he treated his neighbor in the past. He could never say he never sinned, he even knows the perfection standard includes even anger in his heart and even unclean THOUGHTS, apart from the actual doing.
As for the second verse, if we DID say we had never sinned and never fallen short ofGods’ perfect glory, we would be a liar who hadn’t even received the down payment of the Spirit, never mind the whole measure by being crucified.

I have something wrong in these last few words. I will work to amend it. It is not true to say that no one who has received the down payment of the Spirit could not claim it, as it’s the very thing the bulk of evangelicalism teaches men to do.

 

[MostlyConfused]

I am in a state that seems to follow Satan's lie about that.
The flood happened for a reason, Jesus died for us on that cross for a reason, we are to life as perfect as we can
but we are not perfect only God is perfect because God is a spirit not a person. They can have you internalize everything but if we follow scripture, and can renew your faith with up to 3 baptisims the moment you do it releases all that anger in you and it becomes a false life you lived.
Remind your pastor of these scriptures and let us know what he says, Romans 3:23, 1 John 1:10 and tell us what was said. If we are all pretending we are perfect, than those people wouldn't need Jesus or God
That is so sad don't you agree?

Can you really not see that evangelicalism teaches men to say God does not see their sin because He only sees Jesus? Or that God sees them as perfect and righteous because they received the down payment? Can you really not see it teaches them to condemn unbelievers even IF they treat others well?

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

No man says he has never, ever sinned and has not fallen short of the glory of God in perfection. It wouldn’t even be possible for a Christian, (let alone an unbeliever who treats his neighbor right). The Christian couldn’t say it because he knows the glory of God is perfection and he knows how he treated his neighbor in the past. He could never say he never sinned, he even knows the perfection standard includes even anger in his heart and even unclean THOUGHTS, apart from the actual doing.
As for the second verse, if we DID say we had never sinned and never fallen short ofGods’ perfect glory, we would be a liar who hadn’t even received the down payment of the Spirit, never mind the whole measure by being crucified.

Part time perfection is not the standard by which a person can be declared righteous. That's the issue.

Works justification gospels are worthless because nobody has the righteous standard of behavior required to be declared righteous by their works. Not even born again believers.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Can you really not see that evangelicalism teaches men to say God does not see their sin because He only sees Jesus?

The Levitical priesthood and sacrifice help us understand how High Priest Jesus and his sacrifice turns God's wrath away from a person, and removes the guilt of their sin in this New Covenant.

Jesus is the fulfillment of the law of priest and sacrifice, not the destruction of it. God still deals with mankind's failure and reconciles us to himself the same way he did under the law, but with a far more effective High Priest and Sacrifice.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Yikes! Under do not travel order here. I’m not in the area flooding, but close. No one permitted on roads UNLESS you are fleeing. I think I might go see if anyone in the neighborhood sits in a lower lying plot and might need help. The worst that has happened to me this morning was the dang microwave died but there are a few hand to mouth poor and elderly here (we’re all at least 55+) so I suspect there might be at least some horrendous roof leaks Since you choose food and meds over roof repairs when you have no extra. But you are wrong JH. God called some righteous BEFORE Jesus, even a dastardly Samaritan.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Can you really not see it teaches them to condemn unbelievers even IF they treat others well?

Since you don't do that perfectly you cannot be seen as righteous by God on the basis of how well you treat others.

Without the Priesthood and Sacrifice of Jesus there is always the stain of when you didn't treat others well that keeps you from being seen as righteous by God. The guilt of your unrighteousness has to be taken away through the ministry of the High Priest and his Sacrifice for you to be seen as righteous by God.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Seems you stated a precise Time and ONLY Once…

But yet you imply OSAS… is a fallacy.

Why?

OSAS is a falacy.

I listen to the warnings.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

But you are wrong JH. God called some righteous BEFORE Jesus, even a dastardly Samaritan.

You could be declared righteous under the law by 1) not having committed one of the sins unto death, and 2) by faithfully having what sin you did commit forgiven through the Levitical priesthood and sacrifice, or 3) by having discovered and obtained the eternal ministry and sacrifice of Jesus like David did.

Not even under the law could you be declared righteous on the basis of the merit of your obedience to God's commands. Righteousness is and always has been through substitutionary blood sacrifice. You who like to remind us that Jesus did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it, should understand this.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

OSAS is a falacy.

Except your version of it.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Folks who oppose OSAS typically say, "too much sinning, not enough working, stop believing."

1 John 2:19 - They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

I've never heard anyone say that. OSAS is a falacy. I listen to the warnings. Why do you believe there are so many warnings? And people who were believers, but unfortunately got introduced to a false teacher with enticing words, and they listened to them. Why are they described as a dog eating his own vomit?

John 6 is one chapter OSAS teachers use out of context, beside chapter 10. 6:

37-40 is only about the APOSTLES.

SCRIPTURE IN CONTEXT

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Rejected by His Own​

41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”


43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who [i]has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”


52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”


53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”


59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Turn Away​

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”


61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”


66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”


68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”


70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Except your version of it.

Read #1792

 

[marks]

If your mind was open to the Spirit, instead of closed in hatred, you would want the true meaning of the Word of God like I do, instead of only studying the doctrines of man - theology.

You should not speak so foolishly! And given our past conversations, I think you know me better then this and you are just playing for the band.

Now the true name of the process opens my mind even further,

You don't seem to understand that having embraced your substitution word, you are now embracing a false theology.

God help you!

 

[Taken]

OSAS is a falacy.

I listen to the warnings.

Yet… you claim to have been saved HOW MANY Times?

 

[MostlyConfused]

You could be declared righteous under the law by 1) not having committed one of the sins unto death, and 2) by faithfully having what sin you did commit forgiven through the Levitical priesthood and sacrifice, or 3) by having discovered and obtained the eternal ministry and sacrifice of Jesus like David did.

So in the past you did not have to be perfect to be forgiven but now you have to be perfect to be forgiven? But you don’t have to BE and DO perfectly, you only must BELIEVE “perfectly?”

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

...now you have to be perfect to be forgiven?

No, not perfect in order to be forgiven.

If you want to be declared righteous by your works you would have to be perfect to be declared righteous that way.

You aren't that. And even if you were that now, there is the matter of the guilt of your past imperfection that can only be atoned for through the ministry and sacrifice God has provided. That's why you cannot be saved if you do not believe in the ministry and sacrifice of Jesus for atonement and are instead relying on the righteousness of your works.

But you don’t have to BE and DO perfectly...

You don't have to 'be and do' perfectly to be justified by God (you haven't been perfect for that to be the way to be justified). God has provided the ministry and sacrifice of Jesus as the way to be justified. You have already failed the way of works to be declared righteous. Everyone has.

Now the only way you can be justified (declared righteous) is by receiving the intercessory ministry and sacrifice of Christ on your behalf by believing and trusting in it to make you right with God.

... you only must BELIEVE “perfectly?”

Either you believe Jesus' ministry is the way God has provided to make you right with him, or you don't. It's not about perfect believing.