The Case for a Post-Tribulation Second Coming

[The Light]

o Jesus noted there will be tribulation (John 16:33).
o Jesus will take up believers before the *great* tribulation (Matthew 24:21).
o Jesus will first descend to a cloud, then take up (Revelation 14:14-16).

The coming of Jesus in Revelation 14 occurs at the 6th seal immediately after the great tribulation and before the 7th seal wrath of God.

When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the 1st 6 seals.

 

[ewq1938]

The coming of Jesus in Revelation 14 occurs at the 6th seal immediately after the great tribulation and before the 7th seal wrath of God.

When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the 1st 6 seals.

Those chapters are in the trumpets not the seals. The trumps are when various prophetic events actually happen while the seals show what is to come.

 

[The Light]

Those c are in the trumpets not the seals. The trumps are when various prophetic events actually happen while the seals show what is to come.

No. The trumpets are over at the 7th trumpet. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Armageddon is over at the 7th trumpet. The mystery of God is over at the 7th trumpet. The wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet.

The events of the Rev 13 and 14 take place is the 1st six seals..

You don't understand what you are reading and use a sledgehammer to beat everything into place. Just use common sense if you are unable to understand. what is written.

 

[ewq1938]

No. The trumpets are over at the 7th trumpet.

Everyone knows that.

The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. Armageddon is over at the 7th trumpet. The mystery of God is over at the 7th trumpet. The wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet.

The bible says it's the start of the wrath not the end.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Does it say the wrath has ended or has come?

The events of the Rev 13 and 14 take place is the 1st six seals..

Nope.

You don't understand what you are reading and use a sledgehammer to beat everything into place. Just use common sense if you are unable to understand. what is written.

I think you need to heed those words: You don't understand what you are reading and use a sledgehammer to beat everything into place. Just use common sense if you are unable to understand. what is written.

 

[The Light]

Everyone knows that.

They should. However, it seems half of the people don't understand the 7 comes after 6. Many even think that the 7th trumpet is the same as the 6th seal.

The bible says it's the start of the wrath not the end.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Does it say the wrath has ended or has come?

Either one works. Wrath is over at the 7th trumpet as the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

When the 7th angel begins to sound the mystery of God is finished. Wrath is over. Armageddon is over. It is the time of judgement.

Revelation 7
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

This is pretty simple stuff. Seven comes after six. They are not the same number.

 

[William Barton]

And yet you claim 144,000 men are your first fruits

"First fruits" In botany are the first fruits to grow and ripen.

"First fruits from the grave" are those who "ripen first" and are reaped/taken. The taking up has stages (1Thessalonians 4:16-17).

What exactly do you believe the rapture is ?

"Rapture" is an English word stemming from Latin rapiere = "to catch up, seize, carry away." The 144,000 are perhaps believers in the Middle East.

This will be the last stand for Satan and his angels, and I imagine Satan will want all his angels there.

Angels and cerubim do not die, but they can be imprisoned.

 

[KUWN]

It’s getting close; the latter days are already here. Let’s not be deceived.

The gathering of believers to Christ will only occur after the Antichrist has reigned.

The popular "Rapture" theory, specifically the Pre-tribulation view, suggests that Christ will remove the church before the tribulation begins. This view claims believers will be whisked away to safety, avoiding all the fear and chaos of the Antichrist. However, this idea lacks biblical support and suggests a cowardice inconsistent with the faith of those who have died defending the truth. Our protection comes from God, our Rock, not from physical hiding places like caves in Petra.

Scripture is clear that the return of Christ happens at the last trump, after the "man of sin" is revealed. In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Paul explicitly warns believers not to be deceived: the Day of Christ cannot come until there is a great falling away and the son of perdition is revealed. This false messiah will exalt himself and sit in the temple of God, claiming to be God.

While some theorists claim that the "restrainer" mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 is the Holy Spirit being removed during a Rapture, this is very poor scholarship. The context makes it clear that the restrainer is holding back Satan, not the church. In reality, the Archangel Michael is the one restraining Satan in heaven.

Satan’s spirit is active on earth, but he himself is not yet here in person. He will be cast out by Michael and his angels, arriving on earth first to reign as the false christ. Only after this event will the gathering to Christ occur. Do not be deceived by theories; rely solely on the Word of God.

Remember, Jesus Christ IS NOT returning until the great apostasy (falling away) occurs AFTER Satan, the son of perdition (meaning the son who will perish), is revealed.

Would you mind if I ask you where you got your formal education of theology?

 

[William Barton]

And yet you claim 144,000 men are your first fruits.

IMO the seven Jewish holidays each point to an act of the Messiah, as I suggested previously.

 

[Sel@h]

Would you mind if I ask you where you got your formal education of theology?

The Bible.

 

[Douggg]

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
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I think what "in like manner" means is that when Jesus returns, He will be visible to persons on earth, as He descends down to earth. His return will be visibly evident to everyone.

In other words, Jesus will not privately appear in some secret place to only a few persons. As Jesus warned in Matthew 24: 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

 

[Sel@h]

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
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I think what "in like manner" means that when Jesus returns, He will be visible to persons on earth, as He descends down to earth. His return will be visibly evident to everyone.

In other words, Jesus will not privately appear in some secret place to only a few persons. As Jesus warned in Matthew 24: 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

 

[ewq1938]

Wrath is over at the 7th trumpet

The bible says it comes at the 7th trump not ends there.

 

[Sel@h]

"First fruits" In botany are the first fruits to grow and ripen.

"First fruits from the grave" are those who "ripen first" and are reaped/taken. The taking up has stages (1Thessalonians 4:16-17).


"Rapture" is an English word stemming from Latin rapiere = "to catch up, seize, carry away." The 144,000 are perhaps believers in the Middle East.

This will be the last stand for Satan and his angels, and I imagine Satan will want all his angels there.

Angels and cerubim do not die, but they can be imprisoned.

Here we can read about the 144,000:
Revelation 14:1-5: 1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred [and] forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred [and] forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from [among] men, [being] firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.

 

[William Barton]

And yet you claim 144,000 men are your first fruits.

o. Words typically have multiple connotations.
o. Is "You Are My Sunshine" literally a person shining like the sun?
o. Are the 144,000 literally fruits.
o. It is called a "figure of speech," in this example "metonomy."

 

[The Light]

The bible says it comes at the 7th trump not ends there.

The Bible also says that the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord at the 7th trumpet. You read past that like it means nothing. It means that Jesus has returned and set up His kingdom on the earth. Armageddon has already occurred at the 7th trumpet.

It's also the time of judgement. That happens at the end of wrath.

And you ignore that the 7 trumpets are Gods wrath. The 6th seal has men hiding in caves knowing that wrath is getting ready to begin. But to you those trumpets are not the wrath of God. You can't seem to grasp that the trumpets and vials are both the wrath of God. It's the same game with two different visions.

You are confused by the tense of "is" come and without reading what the scripture says to draw the correct conclusion.

Most importantly you reject what an ordered list is. An ordered list happens in order. Simple.

On top of that somehow magically the 6th seal becomes the 7th trumpet. But those 1st six trumpets happen earlier you claim but they cannot be found in the text anywhere but in the 7th seal.

Same with the rapture. You can't find the rapture anywhere in the 7 trumpets. You have to insert it even though it is not in the text. It's a plethora of pretend instead of facts.

 

[Douggg]

o. Words typically have multiple connotations.
o. Is "You Are My Sunshine" literally a person shining like the sun?
o. Are the 144,000 literally fruits.
o. It is called a "figure of speech," in this example "metonomy."

"first fruits" is metaphoric for highest quality.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Rev 14.
The postribber chaper that needs to go away.

Congratulations on replacing the firstfruits of the church, (Jesus), with 144,000 men.

Jesus is the firstfruits of the resurrection.
Nope, they have the erroneous doctrine of the 144,000 jewish firstfruits as being the church, and then the church raptured in Rev 14;14,15.
(2 raptures.)

It gets more convoluted daily.

 

[The Light]

o. Words typically have multiple connotations.
o. Is "You Are My Sunshine" literally a person shining like the sun?
o. Are the 144,000 literally fruits.
o. It is called a "figure of speech," in this example "metonomy."

First fruits of a harvest are defined as the first ripe of the harvest that are presented to God by the High Priest.

If the first fruits of a harvest are pumpkins, the harvest is pumpkins.

Since the first fruits are 144,000 from twelve tribes of Israel, we know that harvest is of the 12 tribes of Israel. They will be raptured immediately after the great tribulation at the 6th seal before the 7th seal wrath of God.

As for the Church we will be raptured before the great tribulation.

 

[rebuilder 454]

o. Words typically have multiple connotations.
o. Is "You Are My Sunshine" literally a person shining like the sun?
o. Are the 144,000 literally fruits.
o. It is called a "figure of speech," in this example "metonomy."

"Firstfruits" is SPECIFIC.
IN HARVEST, it is the FIRST PORTION SET ASIDE FOR A PURPOSE.
It is not a meaningless abstract, that is some open ended postribber ball, to bat around and become muddled up with no meaning.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Here we can read about the 144,000:
Revelation 14:1-5: 1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred [and] forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred [and] forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from [among] men, [being] firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Thank you for noting the postribber dilemma of 144,000 Jewish men as firstfruits of the Jewish harvest we see in Rev 14;14.

What a coincidence!
Jewish firstfruit men gathered FIRST AS FIRSTFRUITS, and a subsequent harvest by Jesus of Jews.
Ahem ....in Jacob's trouble.
All jewish.
Comical actually.