Can we know the day and hour of Jesus' return?

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Douggg

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Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

There are three rationale ways to interpret verse 22.

1. The length of each day shortened to be less than 24 hours, at some point during the great tribulation.

2. The number of days of the great tribulation reduced from the original length of 1335 days.

3. The length of great tribulation limited to 1335 days. Any longer and no flesh on earth shall survive.

Personally, I think way 3.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

There are three rationale ways to interpret verse 22.

1. The length of each day shortened to be less than 24 hours, at some point during the great tribulation.

2. The number of days of the great tribulation reduced from the original length of 1335 days.

3. The length of great tribulation limited to 1335 days. Any longer and no flesh on earth shall survive.

Personally, I think way 3.
None of those are rational ways of interpreting verse 22. Way 3 makes no sense at all because Jesus related the great tribulation to tribulation that would occur in Judea, not on the entire earth ("Let those in Judea flee to the mountains"). What He described is exactly what happened around 70 AD. You're trying to turn a local great tribulation event into a global one despite Jesus explicitly indicating that it would occur in Judea and Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15-16, Mark 13:14, Luke 21:20). God cut the days of what was occurring in and around Jerusalem in 70 AD short because no one there would have survived otherwise.
 

Douggg

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None of those are rational ways of interpreting verse 22. Way 3 makes no sense at all because Jesus related the great tribulation to tribulation that would occur in Judea, not on the entire earth ("Let those in Judea flee to the mountains"). What He described is exactly what happened around 70 AD. You're trying to turn a local great tribulation event into a global one despite Jesus explicitly indicating that it would occur in Judea and Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15-16, Mark 13:14, Luke 21:20). God cut the days of what was occurring in and around Jerusalem in 70 AD short because no one there would have survived otherwise.
What do you think this verse means...

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

.....?
 

A Watchman

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Can we know the day and hour of Jesus' return?

The bible says...Matt 24:36
“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.

I guess that settles it. Right? For many it does.

BUT

We know the tribulation will be for 7 years...or...2,520 days using a 360 day lunar cycle year or 2,555 days using our 365 day calendar.

We also know the tribulation starts when the anti-Christ incorporates the "peace contract"....So why can't we add 2,520 days or 2,555 days from the moment the peace contract is signed? At that point it's pretty much a 50/50 guess as we don't know what number to use.
But, the bible says the peace contract will be broken after 3 1/2 years. That is 1,277 days or 1,260 days after the contract is signed.
Once the antiChrist declares himself to be God on day 1,277 or day 1,260.....all we have to do is add either 1,277 or 1,260 days to which number turned out to be correct.....and show Matt 24:36 has some problems as the day can be predicted.

BUT. Matt 24:36 can't be predicted...

Knowing Jesus return is imminent....I would suggest of that date no one knows when Jesus will return. This would be the date of the pre-tribulation rapture.

One way we can know the return of Jesus...(the first return)...is pre-tribulation is the mention of what the world will look like when Jesus returns. We know this return isn't speaking about the end of the tribulation because after going through the 7 year tribulation the world will not be rainbows, puppy dogs, butterflies and daisies. People will not be eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, buying and selling, planting and building.
Jesus says the world will look like the days of Noah and Lot when He returns. Those day fit the pre-tribulation description rather than an end of the tribulation world view and economy.

It's amazing just how many people fight against the theology of the pre-tribulation rapture of the church.

One thing about the pre-tribulation rapture is the signs say it's soon....sooner than you think.

I think that the meaning behind no man knowing the day or hour is intricately linked to the reason behind the 1,260 days equating to 42 months and 3.5 times.

In Hebrew, the "time(s)" in the time, times and a half is moed, the same word used for appointed times, tied to the appointed people (Israel) meeting at the appointed place (Zion) at God's appointed times. That is why 3.5 times is equated to 42 months or 1,260 days on the lunisolar calendar used to track God's appointed times.

The one caveat is that Israel didn't care how many months were in a year, they just cared that the first month was counted such that a little over half way through that first month they would have a harvest nearing readiness and a wave sheaf to bring to God on firstfruits. Because the crops are tied to the solar calendar, this required that sometimes the shorter lunar year would have to include an intercalary month to catch back up to the harvest season even though new moons were what defined the start of each month.

So, it's not every 7-year period where 1,260 days will equal 42 months and 3.5 times, it has to be those time frames without the intercalary months added. That runs on the Metonic Cycle repeating a sequence every 19 years.

But how the new month is defined as having begun is two or more witnesses visually seeing the first light after a new moon. Since the moon is between the earth and the sun at a new moon, they set at the same time. Now we have fancy software that can tell us the future state of the sun and moon at any point on earth based on the miraculous celestial clock God made and assigned Israel's statutes to. But it's still visually based and sometimes that first light after a new moon doesn't happen until after the sun and moon set. So you never really knew ahead of time what day the new month would land on until it was observed.

The only appointed time given to Israel that was not in the midst of a month was Yom Teruah, the feast of trumpets. It was on the first day of the month, which is not known until observed.

Therefore, if Yeshua returns on Yom Teruah, it will be the idiomatic day and hour no man knows. It will take place in a season of the midst of the year that correlates to the idea of 3.5 times.

What I found interesting was that taking the framework of exact day prophecies for the 70th week and the ability to see back and forward the movement of the heavens with Stellarium, as well as other checks on harvest times, etc., I just picked a range from 2020 to 2041 and mapped the appointed times, new moon based on the barley harvest time in Israel and the vernal equinox to see where the framework of exact day prophecies fit into that.

Across fifteen 7-year periods, only 3 ended up falling within a day of God's appointed times with relevance across the 7 years. This assumes the exact middle of the week falls on Yom Kippur, the start of the day of the Lord following the sixth seal during Yom Teruah. Even the end on the first of Abib/Nisan has relevance when recognizing the 45 days remaining that then would fall on 2nd Passover. Numbers 9:6-14 This is also laid out in my more comprehensive chart of the 70th week as I understand it at this time.

So I think there is an explanation for the day and hour not being known that also hints at the integral part God's appointed times plays in His plan for the 70th week appointed to Israel and Jerusalem leading to His kingdom being established in the earth.
 

ewq1938

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Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

There are three rationale ways to interpret verse 22.

1. The length of each day shortened to be less than 24 hours, at some point during the great tribulation.

2. The number of days of the great tribulation reduced from the original length of 1335 days.

3. The length of great tribulation limited to 1335 days. Any longer and no flesh on earth shall survive.

Personally, I think way 3.


That is not the GT being shortened. That's limiting growth or lengthening. If the trib in your view originally was to be 1335 days, anbd after Christ said it would be shortened yet it's the same length then you have a flaw in understanding.

4. The trib was to be 7 years total, but it was shortened and now is 42 months/1260 days. It was cut in half.
 

Douggg

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That is not the GT being shortened. That's limiting growth or lengthening. If the trib in your view originally was to be 1335 days, anbd after Christ said it would be shortened yet it's the same length then you have a flaw in understanding.

4. The trib was to be 7 years total, but it was shortened and now is 42 months/1260 days. It was cut in half.
No, there are 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9 that correspond to the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

table of time frames2.jpg
 

CrowCross

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Is it OK? well, its like this, if one is not willing to make the effort to question one's view, even when God knocks on one's door, one will not open it.
Let me get this straight....because I disagree with you....it's like God knocking on my door and me not opening it? Did I get that right quitethinker?
 

CrowCross

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I think that the meaning behind no man knowing the day or hour is intricately linked to the reason behind the 1,260 days equating to 42 months and 3.5 times.
No. If you know when the tribulation begins or when the antichrist makes his declaration in the temple....all you gotta do is the math. That's whe Jesus physically returns.

Of course we also know Jesus returns at the rapture...which will happen like a thief in the night....it could happen at any moment....it's that return no one knows the day or hour.
 

ScottA

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None of those are rational ways of interpreting verse 22. Way 3 makes no sense at all because Jesus related the great tribulation to tribulation that would occur in Judea, not on the entire earth ("Let those in Judea flee to the mountains"). What He described is exactly what happened around 70 AD. You're trying to turn a local great tribulation event into a global one despite Jesus explicitly indicating that it would occur in Judea and Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15-16, Mark 13:14, Luke 21:20). God cut the days of what was occurring in and around Jerusalem in 70 AD short because no one there would have survived otherwise.
You are the closest. But only because you mention Judea, which is indeed key.

If you can receive it, you have the date that defines all the rest. The words "are spirit." "Judea" or Judah, means "praise." Those in praise--glory to God. "Flee" means "to flee away, seek safety by flight" Those, to the glory of God, flee away to safety. "Mountains" means "rise"--"into"--the mountains, means...To the glory of God those included rise to safety (in God).

But we speak of the Jews--of Israel--Daniel's people--"the house of Israel." For whom Messiah came, putting an end to the daily sacrifice, of which He said "It is finished" before moving on to that "another fold" of the gentiles--making Him "the First and the Last" in the middle of "times" ("in the middle of the week").

Use that time "It is finished" for Israel, ending the daily sacrifice, as "the middle of the week"--and you have it all!
 
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Douggg

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Of course we also know Jesus returns at the rapture...which will happen like a thief in the night....it could happen at any moment....it's that return no one knows the day or hour.
I would not call Jesus's coming for the resurrection/rapture a return, but a coming.

It is going to be great to leave this world and all its problems and be in heaven in the presence of God the Father and Jesus our Lord. It could a happen at any moment, as you say. Stay encouraged.
 
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quietthinker

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Let me get this straight....because I disagree with you....it's like God knocking on my door and me not opening it? Did I get that right quitethinker?
I asked you to revisit your prophetic understanding because I consider it largely flawed and you disagreed ie, you were not willing.
One of the ways God knocks on our door is to challenge our views. An unwillingness to have our views challenged equates to not opening the door.
When errors in understanding surface in how we see, it's usually the tip of an iceberg....there's a truckload under the surface on shifting sand (so to speak)
 

CrowCross

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I asked you to revisit your prophetic understanding because I consider it largely flawed and you disagreed ie, you were not willing.
One of the ways God knocks on our door is to challenge our views. An unwillingness to have our views challenged equates to not opening the door.
When errors in understanding surface in how we see, it's usually the tip of an iceberg....there's a truckload under the surface on shifting sand (so to speak)
Oh, wait....here we go again. If I don't agree with you ....God never knocked on my door and challenged my views?
God showed me the pre-tribulation rapture. I've been challenged. Pre-trib rapture is biblical.
Did you ever think that maybe it's you who should be asking the Holy Spirit how to rightly divide the Word when it comes to Jesus coming for His bride?
 

ewq1938

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There is no basis for your statement. There are 15 time of the end time frame events given in the bible. None of those are eliminated.


Again, the trib is not the same legth as it originally was:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
 

ewq1938

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it could happen at any moment....

Scripture says that is not possible.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the second coming), and by our gathering together unto him (the Rapture),
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
 
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Peter1

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Asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was to come, Jesus gave them this answer, ‘The coming of the kingdom of God does not admit of observation and there will be no one to say, “Look here! Look there!” For, you must know, the kingdom of God is among you.’

He said to the disciples, ‘A time will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man and will not see it. They will say to you, “Look there!” or, “Look here!” Make no move; do not set off in pursuit; for as the lightning flashing from one part of heaven lights up the other, so will be the Son of Man when his day comes. But first he must suffer grievously and be rejected by this generation.’