Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[Episkopos]

Your whole problem is you think a person becomes virtuous by the effort of being virtuous.

Your whole problem is that you think wheat becomes wheat by the effort of trying to be wheat. For you, it would be an effort, and a wasted one at that. You would have to repent of your pride and hubris to NOT be a tare.

Fruit trees don't become fruit trees by bearing fruit. They show that they are fruit trees by bearing fruit.

That's my argument. The righteous DO righteousness...because they are righteous. The holy walk in perfection because they are IN Christ.

These are things that are far above your understanding.

Your theology fails on the matter of how to become a fruit bearing tree that is pleasing to God and won't get cut down and burned. Yours is a works justification theology through and through.

You have again contradicted yourself. Bearing fruit is necessary to be seen as a fruit tree. A tree is known of its fruit. You do NOT bear fruit because you CLAIM something that is fictitious...a fictitious righteousness....so your works are vain. You have no fruit except what indoctrination and deception produces...namely tares. If you repent from your religious presumptions then you will immediately change the nature of your fruit. Say NO to the devil.

 

[David1701]

Apologies if I came off as offensive. I just see two ways of reading the word. I know this to be true because I spent years of reading it as just knowledge. It took many trails and tribulations to break me. I now find life in the word when I read. If you don't see the two approaches that is fine. Blessings

I've known and experienced reading God's word for knowledge, devotion, correction, guidance, Holy Spirit insight and spiritual life, for decades. I also know pride when I see it.

 

[shepherdsword]

I've known and experienced reading God's word for knowledge, devotion, correction, guidance, Holy Spirit insight and spiritual life, for decades. I also know pride when I see it.

Pride is a nasty thing and difficult to eradicate because we often miss it in ourselves. To see it in someone else is not a big challenge. The real challenge is to see it in ourselves. That's why when someone even insinuates they see it in me, I humble myself.

 

[David1701]

Pride is a nasty thing and difficult to eradicate because we often miss it in ourselves. To see it in someone else is not a big challenge. The real challenge is to see it in ourselves. That's why when someone even insinuates they see it in me, I humble myself.

That's good. I'll look for corroborating evidence in future posts.

 

[shepherdsword]

That's good. I'll look for corroborating evidence in future posts.

Maybe you should look for it in yourself....unless you are claiming you are pride free that is. I can see you are not.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Your whole problem is that you think wheat becomes wheat by the effort of trying to be wheat.

No that's your theology.

Transformation is how a person becomes a stalk of wheat who bears the head of grain. A person bears the head of grain because they are a stalk of wheat, not in order to become a stalk of wheat.

The fruit you bear shows what kind of planting you are, and who planted you, not makes you that planting. Your gospel is the works gospel condemned by Paul. It will not save you from being cut down and thrown into the fire. Because it has no power to transform.

 

[David1701]

Maybe you should look for it in yourself....unless you are claiming you are pride free that is. I can see you are not.

I know I'm not free of pride; but, I'm not the one who has been insulting, misrepresenting the other's posts and being belittling, with no justification whatever. That would be you.

I said that I would look for corroborating evidence of your claim that you would humble yourself; sadly, your very next post proved that this was not yet the case.

I'm going to end this conversation here; but, I feel the need to point out that people who are on the staff should display a higher standard of uprightness, not a lower standard.

 

[Lizbeth]

He who is not against Me is for Me.

It means such will not stand in His way and fight against Him at least. And I expect they may have some blessing in THIS life because of it......could even lead to their salvation by faith (through the gospel) in some instances. But does it mean that whoever is not against Him inherits eternal life because of it? Where does it show this in scripture please?

Your understanding is backward. If something is the work of God is cannot be the work of men. This miscalculation of yours is typical of the name it claim it generation.

It is the work of GOD HIMSELF that you believe INTO Christ. No one can believe INTO Christ by a religious affirmation.

Being regenerated by the Spirit is God's work...not the work of men.

You need to read the text without the indoctrination. Believing INTO Christ is not the same kind of beliefs that the devil and religious people have. It means to be TRANSLATED to be where He is in the abiding place made by the Father...in Zion. Being found IN Him.

Yes, faith is of God not of our own......and then we confess Him with our mouth......also by faith. And begin to obey/follow Jesus......also by faith. To HIS glory, not ours. Marvellous and wonderful that He will reward us for what is but our reasonable service anyhow.

How about where the bible also says we are to GROW up INTO Him? How does that fit with your doctrine?

That some may be translated into a higher walk in this life I do not disbelieve (but whether as a permanent state I don't know...so far nobody around here seems able to remain in that state).........but I do believe it is wrong and unspiritual to impose that on everyone. I think for most that happens after physical death. God doesn't judge the way man does and He knows every minute detail of everyone's life and circumstances that they are dealing with. Eg, some people have more difficult battles to fight than others, and some easier, that is just a fact of life and circumstances and what we inherit through the flesh. He who judges us is the LORD.

 

[shepherdsword]

There was this ole preacher name Arthur Burt who had an interesting saying. He said "If man does the work then man gets the glory, if God does the work then God gets the glory."

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Your whole problem is that you think wheat becomes wheat by the effort of trying to be wheat. For you, it would be an effort, and a wasted one at that.

No, it is a necessary effort. Just not for making oneself a planting of God, but to show you are a planting of God.

It is indeed encumbent on the born again person to validate their claim to be a believing, born again person by what they do. (Just as Abraham showed that he believed God's promise by offering Isaac up on the altar.)

You have it backwards and say that you make yourself a born again person by acting like one, then God, if he is pleased, makes you one.

 

[shepherdsword]

I know I'm not free of pride; but, I'm not the one who has been insulting, misrepresenting the other's posts and being belittling, with no justification whatever. That would be you. This is the last I will say on the matter.

If you think someone telling you that you are eating from the tree of knowledge is an insult then you need to grow some thicker skin. Because that is nothing but correction you are too arrogant to receive. (I bet you consider this an insult too)

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

It means such will not stand in His way and fight against Him at least. And I expect they may have some blessing in THIS life because of it......could even lead to their salvation by faith (through the gospel) in some instances. But does it mean that whoever is not against Him inherits eternal life because of it? Where does it show this in scripture please?

I know you'll recall the story of the slave girl who had a spirit of divination in Acts 16:16-18. She was not against Jesus and the gospel and even shouted, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation!"

In confirmation of what you're saying, that hardly means she had eternal life because she was technically not against the message of Jesus.

 

[Lizbeth]

Your whole problem is that you think wheat becomes wheat by the effort of trying to be wheat. For you, it would be an effort, and a wasted one at that. You would have to repent of your pride and hubris to NOT be a tare.


That's my argument. The righteous DO righteousness...because they are righteous. The holy walk in perfection because they are IN Christ.

These are things that are far above your understanding.

You have again contradicted yourself. Bearing fruit is necessary to be seen as a fruit tree. A tree is known of its fruit. You do NOT bear fruit because you CLAIM something that is fictitious...a fictitious righteousness....so your works are vain. You have no fruit except what indoctrination and deception produces...namely tares. If you repent from your religious presumptions then you will immediately change the nature of your fruit. Say NO to the devil.

You sure are one to talk about pride, oh my.

 

[ProDeo]

Only those who DO the will of God will live on with God. It doesn't matter what your spiritual condition is...whether regenerated or not. We are to DO the commandments. And the devil wants people to put their trust in a "saved" status by making GOOD works to seem BAD.

In Islam you can earn your way into paradise by doing good works and obeying Allah, type "islam and salvation" in your browser or the "Five Pillars of Islam". There must be millions of devout Muslims.

Not all who say Lord Lord shall enter the kingdom but those who DO the will of My Father.

Will devout Muslims enter the Kingdom ?

In other words, and once again, where is Jesus in your theology?

 

[Episkopos]

In Islam you can earn your way into paradise by doing good works and obeying Allah, type "islam and salvation" in your browser or the "Five Pillars of Islam". There must be millions of devout Muslims.

Righteousness is universal. In every nation those who fear God and DO righteousness are accepted with Him. Religious people can't accept that.

So then you may begin to understand the nature of faith in Christ. The minimum standard of Christ is a basic righteousness. At LEAST giving your talent to the money changers. To at least walk at the level of a good Muslim, or Hindu. Less than that gets you sent into outer darkness where you may have to serve a Muslim or Hindu.

The standard of Christ is to walk in His power over sin and this world. The saints will rule over the righteous in the next age. The Bride of Christ lives with God in the holy city. And the kings of the earth (nations) brings in their glory (human) into it.

Will devout Muslims enter the Kingdom ?

No. They will enter the nations.

In other words, and once again, where is Jesus in your theology?

Jesus is the Saviour of the whole world...especially those who believe. Faith in Christ gives us access to GLORY....not just salvation (salvation PLUS glory). OBEDIENCE to Christ brings salvation. Whoever obeys Christ, whether believer or not is saved. Jesus' blood covers all who obey Him.

The problem with the modern church is the false doctrine of religious beliefs INSTEAD of obedience. Making Jesus an idol that is meant only to venerate but not listen to.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

You would have to repent of your pride and hubris to NOT be a tare.

How is it pride and hubris to rely on God's mercy, made available to us through the sacrifice of Christ's blood, to enter the kingdom of God knowing you don't have the righteousness to enter the kingdom of God? You have yet to explain this obvious discrepancy in your theology.

I think it is you that have to repent of your pride and hubris. You think you do have the righteousness of behavior required to enter the kingdom of God on that basis. You are in effect claiming you are perfect, because that is what you would have to be to get in the kingdom of God on the basis of your righteousness. I don't need to know you to know that you aren't perfect in behavior. And you have the audacity to point your finger at me and condemn me for my imperfection. Your hypocrisy is astounding.

 

[Episkopos]

It means such will not stand in His way and fight against Him at least. And I expect they may have some blessing in THIS life because of it......could even lead to their salvation by faith (through the gospel) in some instances. But does it mean that whoever is not against Him inherits eternal life because of it? Where does it show this in scripture please?

Matt 25..sheep and goats. Neither has any idea of who Jesus is. They have merely interacted with the saints.

The same parable works for unbelievers interacting with believers (outside the church) as well as saints with non-saints (within the church). Same principle. Whoever is not against Me is for Me.

Yes, faith is of God not of our own......and then we confess Him with our mouth......also by faith. And begin to obey/follow Jesus......also by faith. To HIS glory, not ours. Marvellous and wonderful that He will reward us for what is but our reasonable service anyhow.

How about where the bible also says we are to GROW up INTO Him? How does that fit with your doctrine?

We grow into the stature of Christ in maturity....not purity. We don't earn His holiness or presence. Holiness is as sudden as His presence. I have tried explaining these things to you, but you are amazingly dull of understanding.

That some may be translated into a higher walk in this life I do not disbelieve (but whether as a permanent state I don't know...so far nobody around here seems able to remain in that state).........but I do believe it is wrong and unspiritual to impose that on everyone.

I don't impose the higher walk on anyone. I simply defend it against false teachers who claim to have something they don't have....thus lowering the standard to something people can sully with their dirty hands and feet. The filthy will be cast away from God. We are not to mix holiness with carnal things.

Keep the sabbath holy. That's what I do. I don't pretend to be somewhere or something I'm not.

That's what evangelicals have been conditioned to do. They insult, lie and steal from God and then claim to have done no iniquity. And these will not fear the Lord...instead they boast themselves into condemnation.

I think for most that happens after physical death. God doesn't judge the way man does and He knows every minute detail of everyone's life and circumstances that they are dealing with. Eg, some people have more difficult battles to fight than others, and some easier, that is just a fact of life and circumstances and what we inherit through the flesh. He who judges us is the LORD.

Yes...but the standard of God and His ways are laid out in the bible for all to read. If that's too difficult to understand then there are some in the church who have been given revelation as watchmen so as to warn those who are unlearned and ignorant of the truth. If they don't listen to these...then they are ready to be rejected.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

That's my argument. The righteous DO righteousness...because they are righteous.

The problem is your circular reasoning. You say they are righteous because they obey righteously. Then you say they obey righteously because they are righteous. What a jumbled up, illogical theology!

The holy walk in perfection because they are IN Christ.

I don't have to know you to know that you do NOT walk in perfection. You just don't.

 

[Episkopos]

How is it pride and hubris to rely on God's mercy, made available to us through the sacrifice of Christ's blood, to enter the kingdom of God knowing you don't have the righteousness to enter the kingdom of God? You have yet to explain this obvious discrepancy in your theology.

You are not only claiming to be under God's permanent mercy, you also claim to have immunity for prosecution from sin. So then you have fallen into the Pharisee trap...the pretender's trap. The Pharisees were absolutely convinced that they were the people of God...and they were....but they didn't realize that humility and the fear of the Lord was meant to overcome their tendency to pride and hubris. You are in the exact same position as they were...and you are just as blind to it as they were. It's shocking to think that a person can be that blind.

I think it is you that have to repent of your pride and hubris. You think you do have the righteousness of behavior required to enter the kingdom of God on that basis.

No I don't that is your pride and hubris judging me for what you are doing. I am just pointing it out as I see it. I claim nothing but to be a disciple of Christ...learning basic righteousness.

You are in effect claiming you are perfect,

More false witness. See, you reveal yourself more and more as a Pharisee by lying and accusing. Use my own words and show people where you are twisting all I say to your own benefit.

because that is what you would have to be to get in the kingdom of God on the basis of your righteousness. I don't need to know you to know that you aren't perfect in behavior. And you have the audacity to point your finger at me and condemn me for my imperfection. Your hypocrisy is astounding.

We enter into the kingdom NOW based on mercy and surrender. Those who claim to be walking in Christ and who sin are liars.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

You do NOT bear fruit because you CLAIM something that is fictitious...a fictitious righteousness...

The gift of righteousness is only fictitious to you. That is why you are by definition an unbeliever. You do not believe in the sacrifice of Jesus for the forgiveness of sin and a turning away of the wrath of God. You are literally an unbeliever.

You believe another gospel. A gospel in which you enter the kingdom on the merit of your own righteousness - a righteousness you do not have because you do not believe in Jesus' sacrifice for justification and remain in your natural sinful state. You just think you have the righteousness required to enter the kingdom of God. Don't need to know you to know that you most certainly do not have that righteousness. No one does. Christ was the only perfect human being to walk this planet. You ain't Christ. Don't even need to debate the point.