Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[Judge Hardcastle]

Or as Luther put it....a fresh covering of snow over a dunghill. You post has that same peculiar odour to it.

The more accurate description is a dusting of dirt on snow. The fundamental quality being the snow, not the dirt that dirties the outer part of the snow. This is akin to Jesus' explaining how a person who has had a bath need only to wash his feet. The fundamental quality of the person being that he is clean, not that his feet are dirty. Dirty feet doesn't change the fact that the person has been bathed one time and does not need to take another bath. The believer doesn't become unbathed when they sin.

John 13:10
10Jesus told him, “Whoever has already bathed needs only to wash his feet, and he will be completely clean.

A truth that doesn't quite fit into the theology of the works salvationist.

 

[David1701]

The more accurate description is a dusting of dirt on snow. The fundamental quality being the snow, not the dirt that dirties the outer part of the snow. This is akin to Jesus' explaining how a person who has had a bath need only to wash his feet. The fundamental quality of the person being that he is clean, not that his feet are dirty. Dirty feet doesn't change the fact that the person has been bathed one time and does not need to take another bath. The believer doesn't become unbathed when they sin.

John 13:10
10Jesus told him, “Whoever has already bathed needs only to wash his feet, and he will be completely clean.

A truth that doesn't quite fit into the theology of the works salvationist.

Yes; the feet are the part of the body that constantly touches the world, in our walk; therefore, they are the part that (metaphorically speaking) becomes dirty from that contact.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

God reckons us as justified, not through any actual change in our sinful condition, but that our sinfulness is covered by the pure righteousness of Christ. This means that when God views us, He views us through Christ's righteousness, not our own.

Epi says it is impossible to be seen as righteous without actually being righteous. He does not understand that the riches of Christ's righteousness is credited to the believer when they are joined to him, like how the riches of a man become the riches of the woman he takes as his own. She doesn't earn his estate. It becomes hers by virtue of marital union. It's a completely legal transaction that no one can argue with or dispute. Though many try.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

...although we are guilty of sin, we are acquitted because Jesus has taken our guilt and punishment for sin upon Himself, and given us His righteousness.

There is no ransom paid for sinners in Epi's theology. No sacrificial propitiation for sin to turn the wrath of God away. Righteousness, and deliverance from the penalty and captivity of sin is by actually being righteous in behavior in his theology. He thinks he is (or has been in the past?) righteous enough to be set free from the penalty and captivity of sin. He rejects atonement through the blood sacrifice of Christ. In his theology you become at one with God and at peace with Him by literally being righteous as He is righteous. Literally. His is a works righteousness 'gospel' through and through.

 

[shepherdsword]

Where does the Bible say that the tree of knowledge of good and evil is also an allegory?

You said that it represents the flesh, but the Bible does not say that (and the knowledge of good and evil (i.e. conscience) is not the flesh).

The tree of life points to the Lord Jesus Christ (it also represents wisdom).

To try to make this either "Pharisaical knowledge that puffs up", or finding "life by fellowshipping with God's Spirit" is a false dichotomy, because you are omitting finding godly knowledge, along with fellowshipping with God's Spirit. It's not "either, or"; but, "both, and".

It's easy to see what tree you eat from when you read.

 

[shepherdsword]

Yes; the feet are the part of the body that constantly touches the world, in our walk; therefore, they are the part that (metaphorically speaking) becomes dirty from that contact.

The bible doesn't say that our feet are the only part that touches the word. (we are not allowed to use metamorphic allegories, remember?)

 

[Episkopos]

Epi says it is impossible to be seen as righteous without actually being righteous. He does not understand that the riches of Christ's righteousness is credited to the believer when they are joined to him, like how the riches of a man become the riches of the woman he takes as his own. She doesn't earn his estate. It becomes hers by virtue of marital union. It's a completely legal transaction that no one can argue with or dispute. Though many try.

This is to assume that the marital union is complete. Betrothal is conditional. Just like the "earnest" of the Spirit. Even the full measure of grace doesn't guarantee that we will be faithful. Those who are Christ's are called, chosen AND faithful.

Salvation is conditional. The promises are conditional. Many are called but few are chosen. Many will be rejected into outer darkness.

I"m trying to get people to consider that the certainty they have learned to trust in is by indoctrination into a scheme that is meant to get MORE people in the pews. As many as humanly possible. The religious system is an entity of its own. It doesn't care for people...and certainly not for the truth.

 

[Episkopos]

There is no ransom paid for sinners in Epi's theology.

Jesus bought back...redeemed ....reconciled...the world unto Himself.

No sacrificial propitiation for sin to turn the wrath of God away.

Jesus is the atonement for the whole world.

Righteousness, and deliverance from the penalty and captivity of sin is by actually being righteous in behavior in his theology.

We will ONLY be judged by our works...and of what kind they are. Nobody is neutral when it comes to works. Either they are good or bad. No one can say...I don't DO works because I don't believe in "works salvation" (a made up strawman argument). Likewise nobody can live temporally outside the environment of the earth. We can't pollute the world and say we are not affecting the environment.

He thinks he is (or has been in the past?) righteous enough to be set free from the penalty and captivity of sin.

He gives the Spirit to those who obey Him.

He rejects atonement through the blood sacrifice of Christ. In his theology you become at one with God and at peace with Him by literally being righteous as He is righteous. Literally. His is a works righteousness 'gospel' through and through.

Salvation is a work of God working THROUGH the saint. Entering into Christ empowers us to DO just as He did. IF we DO righteousness on that level we get a reward. Why? Because in Christ we produce a DOUBLE fruit (Ephraim). Jesus is BOTH God and man. And the saint produces treasure both old and new. No one gets any reward for being regenerated into a spiritual race. All run but one wins the prize.

Paul was against the works of the law for righteousness (Judaism). We were created to Do good works. You destroy our entire purpose for being. The only thing you want is salvation and forgiveness....for it's own sake...no purpose no glory.

 

[Episkopos]

It doesn't matter what kind of castle you are building...even a "hardcastle". Unless you are TAMIM....obedient to God as a child...you are building on sand and the whole structure will fall.

Only those who DO the will of God will live on with God. It doesn't matter what your spiritual condition is...whether regenerated or not. We are to DO the commandments. And the devil wants people to put their trust in a "saved" status by making GOOD works to seem BAD.

Not all who say Lord Lord shall enter the kingdom but those who DO the will of My Father.

 

[David1701]

It's easy to see what tree you eat from when you read.

Now, now, there's no need for nastiness.

 

[David1701]

The bible doesn't say that our feet are the only part that touches the word. (we are not allowed to use metamorphic allegories, remember?)

I said that our feet are the part of our body that constantly touches the world, in our walk. I did not say that our feet are the only part of our body that touches the world at all.

I also did not say that metaphors are "not allowed". I simply have a strong desire for truthful interpretation of God's word, not making things up to fit a particular viewpoint.

Being led by the Holy Spirit includes being truthful (very much so!), so please stop misrepresenting what I post. I've not been unkind to you, so there is absolutely no call for your attitude.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

This is to assume that the marital union is complete. Betrothal is conditional. Just like the "earnest" of the Spirit. Even the full measure of grace doesn't guarantee that we will be faithful. Those who are Christ's are called, chosen AND faithful.

Salvation is conditional. The promises are conditional. Many are called but few are chosen. Many will be rejected into outer darkness.

So what you're saying is the wife earns part of the husband's estate before they actually get married. But afterward it's all free.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Those who are Christ's are called, chosen AND faithful.

Salvation is conditional. The promises are conditional. Many are called but few are chosen. Many will be rejected into outer darkness.

Being faithful is a fruit of the Spirit. It is the result of being called and chosen, not the way you get called and chosen. You bear the fruit of the tree in obedience because you are already that tree, not in order to become that tree.

Fruit identifies what tree you are, not makes you that tree.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

It doesn't matter what kind of castle you are building...even a "hardcastle".

I guess you're too young to remember the old Hardcastle and McCormick TV show, lol.

 

[Episkopos]

So what you're saying is the wife earns part of the husband's estate before they actually get married. But afterward it's all free.

Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.
22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.
26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.
28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.
29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.
30 Grace is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the Lord, she shall be praised.
31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Unless you are TAMIM....obedient to God as a child...you are building on sand and the whole structure will fall.

Yeah, we know that. That's because people who build on sand are showing by how they live that they aren't born again. Read the story again. The person building on the sand is living in disobedience to God, while thinking his service to God is somehow going to get him into the kingdom.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies.
11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.
12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.
13 She seeketh wool, and flax, and worketh willingly with her hands.
14 She is like the merchants' ships; she bringeth her food from afar.
15 She riseth also while it is yet night, and giveth meat to her household, and a portion to her maidens.
16 She considereth a field, and buyeth it: with the fruit of her hands she planteth a vineyard.
17 She girdeth her loins with strength, and strengtheneth her arms.
18 She perceiveth that her merchandise is good: her candle goeth not out by night.
19 She layeth her hands to the spindle, and her hands hold the distaff.
20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.
21 She is not afraid of the snow for her household: for all her household are clothed with scarlet.
22 She maketh herself coverings of tapestry; her clothing is silk and purple.
23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sitteth among the elders of the land.
24 She maketh fine linen, and selleth it; and delivereth girdles unto the merchant.
25 Strength and honour are her clothing; and she shall rejoice in time to come.
26 She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.
27 She looketh well to the ways of her household, and eateth not the bread of idleness.
28 Her children arise up, and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praiseth her.
29 Many daughters have done virtuously, but thou excellest them all.
30 Grace is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the Lord, she shall be praised.
31 Give her of the fruit of her hands; and let her own works praise her in the gates.

Your whole problem is you think a person becomes virtuous by the effort of being virtuous.

Fruit trees don't become fruit trees by bearing fruit. They show that they are fruit trees by bearing fruit. Your theology fails on the matter of how to become a fruit bearing tree that is pleasing to God and won't get cut down and burned. Yours is a works justification theology through and through.

 

[Lizbeth]

Jesus bought back...redeemed ....reconciled...the world unto Himself.

Of whosever WILL out of the world/nations, not of those who reject Him.. And when any soul is reconciled (rejoined) to the Lord, we know it because He is revealed to us, and we are fundamentally changed by His lifeblood (Spirit) now flowing in us.

Jesus is the atonement for the whole world.

Meaning He died for the nations not just Israel only. If that is to be applied in a literal universal sense it would be directly contradicting many other scriptures.......especially those that warn and speak of perishing. If it is to be taken in a literal universal sense nobody would perish. But that verse is saying Jesus atoned for the sins of not only Israel but the nations/world/Gentiles too.......of all who would receive Him.

We will ONLY be judged by our works...and of what kind they are. Nobody is neutral when it comes to works. Either they are good or bad. No one can say...I don't Do works because I don't believe in "works salvation" (a made up strawman argument). Likewise nobody can live temporally outside the environment of the earth. We can't pollute the world and say we are not affecting the environment.

Jesus said the work of God is THIS...to believe in He who God sent. And after coming to faith in Him the next work is to confess Him by mouth. So that is how our race begins and then we continue on from there.

He gives the Spirit to those who obey Him.

The bible says the Holy Spirit is a gift. The apostles were praying for people to receive the Holy Spirit without any preconditions other than faith in Christ.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Salvation is a work of God working THROUGH the saint. Entering into Christ empowers us to DO just as He did. IF we DO righteousness on that level we get a reward. Why? Because in Christ we produce a DOUBLE fruit (Ephraim). Jesus is BOTH God and man. And the saint produces treasure both old and new. No one gets any reward for being regenerated into a spiritual race. All run but one wins the prize.

He who judges us is the Lord.......not the letter of the word. If there is no reward for being regenerated and being entered into the race then the thief on the cross wouldn't have gone to paradise.

I could do a little study here on the firstborn sons being "holy to the Lord"....a tithe ("tenth" as it were)......the "only" one of her mother (Song of Solomon).....the only one who wins the race.......the one leper out of ten........ten servants receiving the talents and only one brought forth a hundred fold........again, that servant is a tithe........the one that wins the prize as it were......firstborn son being dedicated to God as a tithe and receiving a double portion inheritance. But it didn't mean the rest of the nation were disqualified and didn't also belong to the Lord and wouldn't receive any blessings as long as they were running their race lawfully and weren't reprobate/apostate.

But I believe each soul is responsible for running their own race that is marked out for us as individuals wholeheartedly in sincerity and obeying/following as the Lord leads us........seeking His kingdom and righteousness as HE brings conviction along the way, as we are in process of growing up into Him. Again, He who judges us is the Lord........wherever or at whatever point a soul happens to be at along the race course, at the beginning, middle, or end of it.......as long as we remain in the race running the best we can aiming for the prize, we are in Christ and branches of His vine. It happens that there are greater and lesser in the kingdom of God and we should humbly not think more highly of ourselves than we ought. The bible also says we only know in part......and if we think we know we don't yet know as we ought.

 

[Episkopos]

Meaning He died for the nations not just Israel only. If that is to be applied in a literal universal sense it would be directly contradicting many other scriptures.......especially those that warn and speak of perishing. If it is to be taken in a literal universal sense nobody would perish. But that verse is saying Jesus atoned for the sins of not only Israel but the nations/world/Gentiles too.......of all who would receive Him.

He who is not against Me is for Me.

Jesus said the work of God is THIS...to believe in He who God sent.

Your understanding is backward. If something is the work of God is cannot be the work of men. This miscalculation of yours is typical of the name it claim it generation.

It is the work of GOD HIMSELF that you believe INTO Christ. No one can believe INTO Christ by a religious affirmation.

Being regenerated by the Spirit is God's work...not the work of men.

You need to read the text without the indoctrination. Believing INTO Christ is not the same kind of beliefs that the devil and religious people have. It means to be TRANSLATED to be where He is in the abiding place made by the Father...in Zion. Being found IN Him.

 

[shepherdsword]

Now, now, there's no need for nastiness.

Apologies if I came off as offensive. I just see two ways of reading the word. I know this to be true because I spent years of reading it as just knowledge. It took many trails and tribulations to break me. I now find life in the word when I read. If you don't see the two approaches that is fine. Blessings