The Case for a Post-Tribulation Second Coming

[KUWN]

Armageddon is not one battle. It is a series of battles (a campaign) culminating at the 2nd Coming of Christ.

 

[William Barton]

Who is the first fruits of rev 14;14,15?

They are the first to be raptured to heaven, receiving new immortal bodies in the process.

No more tears.

 

[William Barton]

You really want Your doctrine to fit.
It does not.
JESUS SAID WHAT THE SETTING AND TIMING IS OF THE RAPTURE.
HE PLACED THE RAPTURE PRETRIB IN MAT 24, AND 25
WAS HE WRONG?

Jesus placed the rapture as pre-great-tribulation; there has always been tribulation.

 

[KUWN]

It’s getting close; the latter days are already here. Let’s not be deceived.

Actually, the latter days could be hundreds of years later. To say that the latter days are already here has no biblical support. Unless by latter days you mean the Apostolic Age and the Church Age. But you seem to be using the term as something that will happen in the next few weeks, months, or years (only a few).

The gathering of believers to Christ will only occur after the Antichrist has reigned.

This is true of Old Testament Tribulational saints, not those of the Church Age.

The popular "Rapture" theory, specifically the Pre-tribulation view, suggests that Christ will remove the church before the tribulation begins.

This is only true if you take Rev 3:10 literally.

This view claims believers will be whisked away to safety, avoiding all the fear and chaos of the Antichrist. However, this idea lacks biblical support and suggests a cowardice inconsistent with the faith of those who have died defending the truth. Our protection comes from God, our Rock, not from physical hiding places like caves in Petra.

Someone already reprimanded you for using the word 'cowardice.'

Scripture is clear that the return of Christ happens at the last trump,

That would be the second to last trump, since another trumpet sounds according to Matt 24.31

after the "man of sin" is revealed. In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Paul explicitly warns believers not to be deceived: the Day of Christ cannot come until there is a great falling away and the son of perdition is revealed. This false messiah will exalt himself and sit in the temple of God, claiming to be God.

For those who take the "Apostasia" as the Rapture, they have the support of its root word used throughout the NT. 'Rebellion' only occurs 1 time in Acts 21. Most of the other uses are used to mean "to depart." A good description of APOSTASIA. The Rapture happens first and then next is the revealing of the man of lawlessness. (This occurs at the beginning of the Tribulation when the Antichrist and Israel enter into a covenant of protection of the nation of Israel.

While some theorists claim that the "restrainer" mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 is the Holy Spirit being removed during a Rapture, this is very poor scholarship. The context makes it clear that the restrainer is holding back Satan, not the church. In reality, the Archangel Michael is the one restraining Satan in heaven.

So, who is the restrainer? Are you saying it is Michael?

Satan’s spirit is active on earth, but he himself is not yet here in person. He will be cast out by Michael and his angels, arriving on earth first to reign as the false christ. Only after this event will the gathering to Christ occur. Do not be deceived by theories; rely solely on the Word of God.

Actually, Satan is on earth now, seeking whom he may devour. Rely on the Word of God? Makes sense.

Remember, Jesus Christ IS NOT returning until the great apostasy (falling away) occurs AFTER Satan, the son of perdition (meaning the son who will perish), is revealed.

The Rapture is said to occur FIRST (PRWTON - in a series) and then the man of lawlessness is revealed next in the series. Your English Translation is vague here.

 

[William Barton]

Here is Lucifer’s (Satan’s) destiny:
Ezekiel 28:1-26 (NKJV) 1 The word of the LORD came to me again, saying, 2 “Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Because your heart [is] lifted up, And you say, ‘I [am] a god, I sit [in] the seat of gods, In the midst of the seas,’ Yet you [are] a man, and not a god, Though you set your heart as the heart of a god 3 (Behold, you [are] wiser than Daniel! There is no secret that can be hidden from you! 4 With your wisdom and your understanding You have gained riches for yourself, And gathered gold and silver into your treasuries; 5 By your great wisdom in trade you have increased your riches, And your heart is lifted up because of your riches),” 6 ‘Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: “Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god, 7 Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you, The most terrible of the nations; And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom, And defile your splendor. 8 They shall throw you down into the Pit, And you shall die the death of the slain In the midst of the seas. 9 “Will you still say before him who slays you, ‘I [am] a god’? But you [shall be] a man, and not a god, In the hand of him who slays you. 10 You shall die the death of the uncircumcised By the hand of aliens; For I have spoken,” says the Lord GOD.’ ” 11 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “You [were] the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone [was] your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created. 14 “You [were] the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You [were] perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. 16 “By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones. 17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you. 18 “You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you. 19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And [shall be] no more forever.” ’ ” 20 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 21 “Son of man, set your face toward Sidon, and prophesy against her, 22 “and say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, I [am] against you, O Sidon; I will be glorified in your midst; And they shall know that I [am] the LORD, When I execute judgments in her and am hallowed in her. 23 For I will send pestilence upon her, And blood in her streets; The wounded shall be judged in her midst By the sword against her on every side; Then they shall know that I [am] the LORD. 24 “And there shall no longer be a pricking brier or a painful thorn for the house of Israel from among all [who are] around them, who despise them. Then they shall know that I [am] the Lord GOD.” 25 ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “When I have gathered the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and am hallowed in them in the sight of the Gentiles, then they will dwell in their own land which I gave to My servant Jacob. 26 “And they will dwell safely there, build houses, and plant vineyards; yes, they will dwell securely, when I execute judgments on all those around them who despise them. Then they shall know that I [am] the LORD their God.” ’ ”

Ezekiel 28 that you quote refers firstly to the human King of Tyre, and secondarily to Lucifer, the fallen cherub who supported him.

There is a battle going on.

 

[Jay Ross]

Armageddon is not one battle. It is a series of battles (a campaign) culminating at the 2nd Coming of Christ.

The Armageddon judgement of the Kings of the Earth and at the same time the rebelled heavenly hosts will happen, as I understand it, around 2044-2045 AD around the time of the beginning of the Seventh Age.

We are told in Isaiah 24:21-22 that the rebelled heavenly hosts will also be judged around this same time and they will also be gahtered with the kings of the earth and imprisoned for many days i.e. for 1,000 years, to await the time of their punishment after they have been released from the Bottomless Pit.

 

[ewq1938]

Say again?

I believe Armageddon happens after the resurrection and before the Millennium begins. In my opinion the Millennium is not a different dimension nor is it the eternity, nor is it on new Earth. It's this same old Earth and same old humans but led strictly by immortal Christians and Christ with satan temporarily removed.

 

[The Light]

Jesus will descend from heaven at the seventh trump and take up believers, so that they may avoid the coming bowl judgments (Revelation 14:14-16).

It's in the Book!

There is no rapture at the 7th trumpet. The 7th trumpet is the Day of the Lord and Armageddon. The bowls are already finished.

The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord.

 

[The Light]

The rapture is for believers in Christ. Not all Jews are believers.

"Church" is an English rendering of Greek εκκλσια (ekkkesia) = "those who are called."

There are two raptures. The first rapture is for the Church and it will occur before the great tribulation.

The second rapture is for the Jews and yes not all Jews will be believers. This rapture will occur at the 6th seal, before the wrath of God.

 

[William Barton]

I’m not sure what you’re saying regarding Acts 1. There are only two advents of our Lord Jesus Christ—the first, when he came as a babe in Bethlehem, the second when He returns as King of kings and Lord of lords.

I would suggest one other advent of Jesus, after his birth, prior to the second coming: Revelation 14:16:

"And the one sitting upon the cloud [Jesus] swung his sickle upon the land, and the land was reaped" (Revelation 14:16).

"Advent" stems from Latin:
Ad = to/near
Veniere = to come
I e. "to come to" / "to come near."

The purpose of reaping (i.e. "catching up") believers to heaven is to spare them from the coming bowl judgments on the land (Revelation 16:1-21).

See also 1Thessalonians 4:16-17.

 

[William Barton]

There is no rapture at the 7th trumpet. The 7th trumpet is the Day of the Lord and Armageddon. The bowls are already finished.

The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord.

o. According to the BIBLE the rapture will occur at the seventh trump (1Thessalonians 4:15-18).

o. According to the BIBLE the bowl judgments follow the trumpet judgments (Revelation 16:1-21).

o According to the BIBLE "Kingdom of our Lord" refers to the declaration of God the Father (Revelation 11:15-19).

 

[KUWN]

o. According to the BIBLE the rapture will occur at the seventh trump (1Thessalonians 4:15-18).

No such mention of the "seventh" trump.

You need to remember that the book of Revelation was written many years AFTER 1 THess. Paul and the Thessalonians had no idea about a seventh trump; the book of Revelation is 30 years later. The trump in 1 Thess 4 is written in the Church Dispensation while the trump in Rev is written in the Jewish Dispensation. Judgment follows the Rev trumpets, whereas no judgment is suggested with Paul's trump.

 

[The Light]

o. According to the BIBLE the rapture will occur at the seventh trump (1Thessalonians 4:15-18).

As can be seen below 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 shows nothing about a 7th trumpet blown by an angel. So according to the Bible, you are incorrect.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

o. According to the BIBLE the bowl judgments follow the trumpet judgments (Revelation 16:1-21).

According to the Bible the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. That means the millennial kingdom has already been set up. That means Armageddon is already over.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

According to the Bible, when the 7th angel begins to sound, the mystery of God should be finished.

Revelation 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

According to the Bible after the 7th trumpet sounds, it is a time of judgement. Armageddon is over and judgement will occur.

Revelation 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

o According to the BIBLE "Kingdom of our Lord" refers to the declaration of God the Father (Revelation 11:15-19).

According to the Bible you have made this up. It means nothing. The kingdomS of this world are become the kingdomS of our Lord is what the Bible says.

Every statement you have made does not agree with the Bible. You can make up any statement such as, "according to the Bible the moon is made of blue cheese". It's just an empty false statement with no Biblical support, just like your other statements.

 

[Truth7t7]

The seven Jewish holidays all celebrate Jesus the Messiah.

1. Passover...................Slain as a lamb
2. Unleavened Bread....Sinless body in the tomb
3. First Fruits.................First Fruits from the grave
4. Pentecost..................Sends the Spirit
5. Day of Trumpets........Coming with the clouds of heaven
6. Day of Atonement.....Atones for Israel
7. Booths........................Millennial reign

The term "first fruits" is an agricultural term, indicating the first fruits to ripen in the season.

Raptured believers are (metaphorically) first fruits, being the first to ripen to new immortal bodies.

There won't be a Millennial reign as you suggest in item #7 above its a fabrication of man found no place in scripture

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived​

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Truth7t7]

The trump in 1 Thess 4 is written in the Church Dispensation while the trump in Rev is written in the Jewish Dispensation. Judgment follows the Rev trumpets, whereas no judgment is suggested with Paul's trump.

Your claim is false, the scripture below 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV shows the second coming of Jesus Christ and (The Last Day) resurrection of "All"

You now suggest that there are multiple future comings of Jesus Christ and multiple resurrection "False"

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul clearly taught that when Jesus returns the resurrection of the dead takes place, (Then Cometh The End) its that simple (The End) not a 1,000 year kingdom on this earth as many "Falsely" claim

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The scripture above is in perfect agreement with Jesus being revealed in fire and brimstone as seen below (Then Cometh The End) as all the unsaved wicked are destroyed at the Lord's return

(Destroyed Them All)

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

The resurrection of "All" is seen below and the wicked are judged to eternal damnation, this is when the "Final Judgement" takes place (The End)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 Jesus clearly taught that the resurrection of "All" takes place on "The Last Day" this is in perfect agreement with the scripture above

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[The Light]

Armageddon is not one battle. It is a series of battles (a campaign) culminating at the 2nd Coming of Christ.

How do you make this conclusion?

Armageddon occurs on the day of the Lord.

 

[Truth7t7]

As can be seen below 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 shows nothing about a 7th trumpet blown by an angel. So according to the Bible, you are incorrect.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Your claim is "False" the scripture above depicts the second coming and the 7th or last Trump of God, there is only one future second coming and one time the 7th Angel/Trump sounds, you're not going to take one scripture and try to create a false doctrine, exposed

According to the Bible the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. That means the millennial kingdom has already been set up. That means Armageddon is already over.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

It states he shall reign for ever and ever, eternity has begun in the New Heaven and earth

According to the Bible, when the 7th angel begins to sound, the mystery of God should be finished.

Revelation 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

According to the Bible after the 7th trumpet sounds, it is a time of judgement. Armageddon is over and judgement will occur.

Revelation 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.



According to the Bible you have made this up. It means nothing. The kingdomS of this world are become the kingdomS of our Lord is what the Bible says.

Every statement you have made does not agree with the Bible. You can make up any statement such as, "according to the Bible the moon is made of blue cheese". It's just an empty false statement with no Biblical support, just like your other statements.

Yes the very same Trump that is blown at the Lord's second coming and last day resurrection of all thats seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

 

[Truth7t7]

How do you make this conclusion?

Armageddon occurs on the day of the Lord.

And (The Day Of The Lord) is the last day of this earth's existence when it will be "Dissolved" by the Lord's fire in final Judgement

"Dissolved" the "Elements" shall melt with fervent heat

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Jesus placed the rapture as pre-great-tribulation; there has always been tribulation.

The Jesus lied about it???
That is what you are saying?

 

[rebuilder 454]

They are the first to be raptured to heaven, receiving new immortal bodies in the process.

No more tears.

If you think that, then who is the firstfruits of 1 thes 4?
In your model, it is 144,000 men and not Jesus.

You really need to take a look at WHAT JESUS IS AS FIRSTFRUITS.

Your model is so messed up by not knowing what Jesus is as firstfruits.

Spoiler alert.
He is firstfruits of the resurrection.

You got out a bible blender and tried to erase the truth of Rev 14.

Rev 14 has been worn out by postribber modifications and flat out bizarre changes.

BTW, Rev 14 DEMANDS ALL POSTRIBBERS also adhere to RT.

SEE where false doctrine and re engineering truth leads to??????
SMH