Why can't God count?

[FHII]

But Jude did not quote the so called book of Enoch. So, you offered nothing.

Stranger

I am going to have to disagree with you on that point. At least disagree with what I perceive you are saying. Let me make a few statements:

1. The book of Enoch was not written by Enoch. It is commonly thought to have been written around 200 BC. Its more word of mouth and oral tradition of what Enoch did, saw and spoke of.
2. The book (at least in the beginning) is not noted as Enoch's point of view, but that of a person who received the revelation from an angel.
3. Its commonly believed among scholars that no one person wrote the "Book of Enoch". In fact, some speak of I Enoch and II Enoch. Still others suggest the collection should be called the Books of Enoch (suggesting multiple writers).
4. Historians state that Barnabas, Jude (of course), Clement and Iraenaues all quoted The Book of Enoch. I have read some of Ireneaus's work. Don't remember him doing so. Haven't read the others so I can't validate that.
5. The Book of Enoch in modern times was rediscovered in 1798 by Charles Potter in Etheopia.

I have no doubt that there was a book of Enoch circulating in some form during the time Jude wrote his epistle. Now, I actually have an alledged copy of the book of Enoch sitting next to me on my coffee table. Let me quote it:
I Enoch 2:1:

Behold he comes with ten thousand of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all of flesh for every thing which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him.

I see no reason to doubt there was a collection of writings that were attributed to Enoch nor any reason to doubt Jude was referring to it.

If anyone wants references to what I have said, let me know.

 

[ScottA]

To all who responded, Cain was the first born. And Cain had children also. Enoch was not numerically the 7th from Adam. So, why does God call him the 7th from Adam? (Jude 14)

Stranger

Was Eve not also "from" Adam?

 

[Stranger]

I am going to have to disagree with you on that point. At least disagree with what I perceive you are saying. Let me make a few statements:

1. The book of Enoch was not written by Enoch. It is commonly thought to have been written around 200 BC. Its more word of mouth and oral tradition of what Enoch did, saw and spoke of.
2. The book (at least in the beginning) is not noted as Enoch's point of view, but that of a person who received the revelation from an angel.
3. Its commonly believed among scholars that no one person wrote the "Book of Enoch". In fact, some speak of I Enoch and II Enoch. Still others suggest the collection should be called the Books of Enoch (suggesting multiple writers).
4. Historians state that Barnabas, Jude (of course), Clement and Iraenaues all quoted The Book of Enoch. I have read some of Ireneaus's work. Don't remember him doing so. Haven't read the others so I can't validate that.
5. The Book of Enoch in modern times was rediscovered in 1798 by Charles Potter in Etheopia.

I have no doubt that there was a book of Enoch circulating in some form during the time Jude wrote his epistle. Now, I actually have an alledged copy of the book of Enoch sitting next to me on my coffee table. Let me quote it:
I Enoch 2:1:

Behold he comes with ten thousand of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all of flesh for every thing which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him.

I see no reason to doubt there was a collection of writings that were attributed to Enoch nor any reason to doubt Jude was referring to it.

If anyone wants references to what I have said, let me know.

Disagree with me on what point? You are being very vague. Be direct and specific.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Was Eve not also "from" Adam?

No. Eve was a direct creation from God. (Gen. 1:27)

Stranger

 

[liafailrock]

But Jude did not quote the so called book of Enoch. So, you offered nothing.

Stranger

I believe he did, and there's no shortage of opinions that believe that, but even if he did not, I still offered something. The same prophecy in Enoch is stated virtually verbatim by Jude and the nomenclature "seventh from Adam" is what the proposed author called his grandfather Enoch. In short, "seventh from Adam" is directly stated in black and white in Enoch. Since Enoch (and I'm talking Enoch 1) antedates Jude, the complete phrase that this thread is about was known by Jewish people, including our friend Jude. Josephus likewise used the nomenclature seventh from Adam. I believe Jude was calling him by the name familiar with the Jewish people of his day and the subject is not per se about his merely being the seventh from Adam. It's about the prophecy and for all I know, Jude could care less if Enoch was called seventh from Adam. It's a statement of address.

Now as to why it's "seventh from Adam", that's treated in the book of Enoch itself by virtue of the subject matter it brought. It's better to watch the whole movie than to base the entire conversation on a preview or rating.

 

[FHII]

Disagree with me on what point? You are being very vague. Be direct and specific.

Stranger

You said Jude did not quote the so called book of Enoch. I believe he did. I made a few points as background information. But I quoted what you said and that's what I disagreed with.

Perhaps all the background information I gave watered down my point. But other than that, I thought it was clear.... But nonetheless, sorry I wasn't clearer.

 

[Stranger]

I believe he did, and there's no shortage of opinions that believe that, but even if he did not, I still offered something. The same prophecy in Enoch is stated virtually verbatim by Jude and the nomenclature "seventh from Adam" is what the proposed author called his grandfather Enoch. In short, "seventh from Adam" is directly stated in black and white in Enoch. Since Enoch (and I'm talking Enoch 1) antedates Jude, the complete phrase that this thread is about was known by Jewish people, including our friend Jude. Josephus likewise used the nomenclature seventh from Adam. I believe Jude was calling him by the name familiar with the Jewish people of his day and the subject is not per se about his merely being the seventh from Adam. It's about the prophecy and for all I know, Jude could care less if Enoch was called seventh from Adam. It's a statement of address.

Now as to why it's "seventh from Adam", that's treated in the book of Enoch itself by virtue of the subject matter it brought. It's better to watch the whole movie than to base the entire conversation on a preview or rating.

There is no proof that the quote in Enoch is original. There is no proof that the quote in Enoch is earlier that the book of Jude. There is assumption only. Where is the quote in Josephus? And where does he say he is quoting from Enoch.

Jude may not have cared why he wrote 7th from Adam, but God who inspired him to write it did. And He put it there for a reason.

Whoever the authors were of the books of Enoch, someone simply added the quote of Jude 14 later.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

I am going to have to disagree with you on that point. At least disagree with what I perceive you are saying. Let me make a few statements:

1. The book of Enoch was not written by Enoch. It is commonly thought to have been written around 200 BC. Its more word of mouth and oral tradition of what Enoch did, saw and spoke of.
2. The book (at least in the beginning) is not noted as Enoch's point of view, but that of a person who received the revelation from an angel.
3. Its commonly believed among scholars that no one person wrote the "Book of Enoch". In fact, some speak of I Enoch and II Enoch. Still others suggest the collection should be called the Books of Enoch (suggesting multiple writers).
4. Historians state that Barnabas, Jude (of course), Clement and Iraenaues all quoted The Book of Enoch. I have read some of Ireneaus's work. Don't remember him doing so. Haven't read the others so I can't validate that.
5. The Book of Enoch in modern times was rediscovered in 1798 by Charles Potter in Etheopia.

I have no doubt that there was a book of Enoch circulating in some form during the time Jude wrote his epistle. Now, I actually have an alledged copy of the book of Enoch sitting next to me on my coffee table. Let me quote it:
I Enoch 2:1:

Behold he comes with ten thousand of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all of flesh for every thing which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him.

I see no reason to doubt there was a collection of writings that were attributed to Enoch nor any reason to doubt Jude was referring to it.

If anyone wants references to what I have said, let me know.

And what is the earliest copy of Enoch that contains the verses found in Jude? And what is the earliest copy of the book of Jude we have?

Stranger

 

[liafailrock]

There is no proof that the quote in Enoch is original. There is no proof that the quote in Enoch is earlier that the book of Jude. There is assumption only.

Well, you really ought to give better sources that what you call assumption is assumption, but my point already considered the possibility that Jude quoted it unknowingly (I agree God would have allowed that). A quote is a quote, even if by accident. My main point is that what Jude said was around earlier. However, by his own admission that Enoch prophesied, it's far safer to say that Jude knew something about Enoch (hence knowingly quoting him) than your earlier statement and I quote you, "But Jude did not quote the so called book of Enoch." is far more assumption than mine, as it leaves the reader with no specific benchmark to research that idea.

Where is the quote in Josephus? And where does he say he is quoting from Enoch.

I did not say Josephus quoted Enoch. I said that he used the same nomenclature "seven from Adam"

Jude may not have cared why he wrote 7th from Adam, but God who inspired him to write it did. And He put it there for a reason.

I agree with you here, and I did not really touch yet on the reason why.

This is a "clearing up" post of mine just to make sure the record is straight. I don't seem to fundamentally disagree with you. But I must admit you have an extraordinary ability to take a subject such as this and turn it into a debate where I don't think there is any.

 

[Ebed232]

The Bible by the Numbers of pi

Make a list of verses that correspond to the Numbers of pi = 3.141592.... Starting with verse 3, then 31, then 314, then 3141....

Then the Number 31415 is more than the 31102 verses in the Bible...

Viewing Cyclically ~ The Remainder (Rd) is the verse.

31415/31102 ~ 313 Rd

5) 313 verse

314159/31102 ~ 3139 Rd

6) 3139 verse

3141592/31102 ~ 290 Rd

7) 290 verse

~~
20 and 120 numbers of pi by the 31102 verses in the Bible



20) 8472nd vs. 2 Samuel 17:22 Then David arose, and all the people that were with him, and they passed over Jordan: by The Morning Light there lacked not one of them that was not gone over Jordan. ~~~~ Masoretic Hebrew Total 4717

+100 (17+22+25+36 = 100)

120) 7898th vs. 1 Samuel 25:36 And Abigail came to Nabal; and, behold, he held a feast in his house, like the feast of a king; and Nabal's Heart was merry within him, for he was very drunken: wherefore she told him nothing, less or more, until The Morning Light. ~~~~ Masoretic Hebrew Total 4717


GreatHim ~ Bible by pi calculator

120 -122 Of the Bible by pi

120) 7898th vs. 1 Samuel 25:36 And Abigail came to Nabal; and, behold, he held a feast in his house, like the feast of a king; and Nabal's Heart was merry within him, for he was very drunken: wherefore she told him nothing, less or more, until The Morning Light.

121) 16783rd vs. Proverbs 14:10 The Heart knoweth his own bitterness; and a stranger doth not intermeddle with his joy.


122) 12320th vs. Nehemiah 2:12 And I arose in the Night, I and some few men with me; neither told I any man what my God had put in my Heart to do at Jerusalem: neither was there any beast with me, save the beast that I rode upon.


120) 25:36

121) 14:10

122) 2:12


(36 = 14+10+12)


(12 = 2+10)

(14 = 2+12)

25 = +1 (14+10)

Much more to come... I have heard it all, the chapter and verse numbers were not in the originals, and this and that, so give It your best shot to try and debunk the Awesome Works of the Almighty, so that we may see how much you really know...

OP can you count?

To Infinity, where were you when He laid the foundations of the earth?

 

[Ebed232]

Miraculous from the beginning 1-30 to infinity... and since most people these days are only able to pay attention for very short periods, the examples are kept short... and that is still to much for most... later, the longest example 1-30 just as Miraculous as this small portion.

Now~When~Now - (Reference Ecclesiastes 3:15)

10005 - 10011 of the Bible by pi

10005) Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the Householder came and said unto Him, Sir, didst not Thou sow Good Seed in Thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 40 > 4

10006) Isaiah 14:29 Rejoice not thou, whole palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent`s root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent. 43 > 7

10007) Matthew 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to YESHUA, saying unto Him, Where wilt Thou that we prepare for Thee to eat The Passover? 43 > 7

10008) Zechariah 9:13 When I have bent Judah for Me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man. 21 > 3

10009) Nehemiah 7:4 Now the city was large and Great: but the people were few therein, and the houses were not builded. 11 > 2

10010) Revelation 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and Marvellous are Thy Works, Adonai God Almighty; Just and True are Thy Ways, Thou King of saints. 18 > 9

10011) 1 Thessalonians 2:17 But we, brethren, being taken from you for a short time in presence, not in heart, endeavoured the more abundantly to see your face with Great desire. 19 > 1

 

[Stranger]

Well, you really ought to give better sources that what you call assumption is assumption, but my point already considered the possibility that Jude quoted it unknowingly (I agree God would have allowed that). A quote is a quote, even if by accident. My main point is that what Jude said was around earlier. However, by his own admission that Enoch prophesied, it's far safer to say that Jude knew something about Enoch (hence knowingly quoting him) than your earlier statement and I quote you, "But Jude did not quote the so called book of Enoch." is far more assumption than mine, as it leaves the reader with no specific benchmark to research that idea.




I did not say Josephus quoted Enoch. I said that he used the same nomenclature "seven from Adam"



I agree with you here, and I did not really touch yet on the reason why.

This is a "clearing up" post of mine just to make sure the record is straight. I don't seem to fundamentally disagree with you. But I must admit you have an extraordinary ability to take a subject such as this and turn it into a debate where I don't think there is any.

My point is that Jude didn't quote any book or books of Enoch. Jude wrote by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. He didn't have to know anything about the prophecy of Enoch before, whether written or, by tradition. If he did know it by tradition, the only reason he recorded it was because the Holy Spirit led him to. Of course Jude would know who Enoch was. But that only from the Scripture. Not from any so called 'book of Enoch'.

My point is, that whoever the writers of 'Enoch' were, learned of this passage in Jude, and fitted it into their spurious writing of 'Enoch'.

If Josephus said the 'seventh from Adam' then he got it from Scripture. Not the 'book of Enoch'.

My point is that Jude did not say Enoch was the 7th from Adam as a 'statement of address' as you say. He said it because God inspired him to say it and that it therefore has meaning connected with the whole of the Revelation we have of God.

Stranger

 

[Ebed232]

Consider this, highlight IT to show the symmetry that you might see and Post it with some observations or just highlight like me .. And Even if no one is up to this challenge, within a day or two, I will do what was asked..... And Show that IT was by His Design

You probably are asking yourself , What is IT!!?

That's IT




The First 30 " Numbers of Pi " cyclical through the 31,102 verses of the Scriptures.

The Reduced Sum~Root value for that verse's chapter and verse numbers / The Total number of digits in the chapter and verse numbers consecutively.
_____________________________________________________

1) 3 verse Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be Light: and there was Light. 4 / 2

2) 31 verse Genesis 1:31 And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the Sixth day. 5 / 5

3) 314 verse Genesis 12:15 The princes also of Pharaoh saw her, and commended her before Pharaoh: and the woman was taken into Pharaoh's house. 9 / 9

4) 3141 verse Leviticus 14:29 And the rest of the oil that is in the priest's hand he shall put upon the head of him that is to be cleansed, to make an atonement for him before YHWH 26. 7 / 13

5) 31415/31102 ~ 313 verse Genesis 12:14 26 And it came to pass, that, when Abram was come into Egypt, the Egyptians beheld the woman that she was very fair 8 / 17

6) 314159/31102 ~ 3139 verse Leviticus 14:27 And the priest shall sprinkle with his right finger some of the oil that is in his left hand Seven times before YHWH 26 : 5 / 21

7) 3141592/31102 ~ 290 verse Genesis 11:23 And Serug lived after he begat Nahor Two Hundred years, and begat sons and daughters. 7 / 25

8) 31415926/31102 ~ 2906 vs. Leviticus 7:26 Moreover ye shall eat no manner of blood, whether it be of fowl or of beast, in any of your dwellings 6 / 28

9) 314159265/31102 ~ 29065 vs. Galatians 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Mashiach. 8 / 30

10) 3141592653/31102 ~ 10735 vs. 1 Chronicles 12:14 These were of the sons of Gad, captains of the host: One of the least was over an Hundred, and the Greatest over a Thousand. 8 / 34

11) 31415926535/31102 ~ 14049 vs. Psalms 10:7 His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud: under his tongue is mischief and vanity. 8 / 37

12) 314159265358/31102 ~ 16090 vs. Psalms 121:8 YHWH shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore 3 / 41

13) 3141592653589/31102 ~ 5399 vs. Deuteronomy 18:14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, YHWH thy God hath not suffered thee so to do. 5 / 45

14)* 31415926535897/31102 ~ 22895 vs. Zechariah 1:16 Therefore thus saith YHWH; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: My House shall be built in it, saith YHWH of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem. 8 / 48

15) 314159265358979/31102 ~ 11245 vs. 2 Chronicles 3:15 Also he made before The House Two pillars of Thirty and Five cubits high, and the chapiter that was on the top of each of them was Five cubits 9 / 51

Occurrences of the Number '5' in the chapter and verse numbers ~ Two (1-15)

Occurrences of the Word ' Five ' in the written text ~ Two (1-15)

The Sum of the numbers in which the two '5's have occurred ~ Thirty

3) 12:15 9th digit of the chapter and verse numbers

15) 3:15 51st digit

~ 60

1215> 9
315 > 9

16) 3141592653589793/31102 ~ 19147 vs. Jeremiah 7:27 Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee. 7 / 54

17) 31415926535897932/31102 ~ 4860 vs. Numbers 35:14 Ye shall give Three cities on this side Jordan, and Three cities shall ye give in the land of Canaan, which shall be cities of refuge. 4 / 58

The 3rd 5 ~ Three + Three ~ The 6th 4 in the chapter and verse numbers, all within the Number 14

18) 314159265358979323/31102 ~ 17501 vs. Ecclesiastes 10:7 I have seen servants upon horses, and princes walking as servants upon the earth. 8 / 61

19) 3141592653589793238/31102 ~ 19508 vs. Jeremiah 23:23 Am I a God at hand, saith YHWH, and not a God afar off? 9 / 65

20) 31415926535897932384/31102 ~ 8472 vs. 2 Samuel 17:22 Then David arose, and all the people that were with him, and they passed over Jordan: by the Morning Light there lacked not one of them that was not gone over Jordan. 3 / 69 ~ Hebrew Total 4717 #120

21)*314159265358979323846/31102 ~ 22522 vs. Obadiah 1:11 In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou wast as one of them. 3 / 72

22) 3141592653589793238462/31102 ~ 7508 vs. 1 Samuel 13:22 So it came to pass in the day of battle, that there was neither sword nor spear found in the hand of any of the people that were with Saul and Jonathan: but with Saul and with Jonathan his son was there found. 8 / 76

23) 31415926535897932384626/31102 ~ 12882 vs. Job 1:12 And YHWH said unto satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So satan went forth from the presence of YHWH. 4 / 79

24) 314159265358979323846264/31102 ~ 4416 vs. Numbers 22:40 And balak offered oxen and sheep, and sent to balaam, and to the princes that were with him. 8 / 83

25) 3141592653589793238462643/31102 ~ 13061 vs. Job 9:9 Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers of the south. 9 / 85

26) 31415926535897932384626433/31102 ~ 6205 vs. Joshua 15:2 And their south border was from the shore of the salt sea, from the bay that looketh southward: 8 / 88

27) 314159265358979323846264338/31102 ~ 30956 vs. Revelation 16:1 And I heard a Great voice out of the temple saying to the Seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the *earth. 8 / 91

28) 3141592653589793238462643383/31102 ~ 29645 vs. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Adonai YESHUA 1 Mashiach. 1 / 94

29) 31415926535897932384626433832/31102 ~ 16534 vs. Proverbs 5:16 Let thy fountains be dispersed abroad, and rivers of waters in the streets. 3 / 97

30) 314159265358979323846264338327/31102 ~ 9837 vs. 2 Kings 11:7 And Two parts of all you that go forth on the Sabbath, even they shall keep the watch of The House of YHWH about the king. 9/100

Total digits in the chapter and verse numbers = 100 (1-30)

1-30 - Occurrences of the Number '7' in the chapter and verse numbers , Its numeric position 1-100 in the chapter and verse numbers, and the Word 'Seven'


6) Leviticus 14:27 The 21 digit ~ 'Seven'

8) Leviticus 7:26 The 26 digit

9) Galatians 1:7 The 30 digit

11) Psalms 10:7 The 37 digit

16) Jeremiah 7:27 The 52 digit and the 54 digit

18) Ecclesiastes 10:7 The 61 digit ~ 7 occurrence

20) 2 Samuel 17:22 The 67 digit -13

27) Revelation 16:1 ~Seven~

30) 2 Kings 11:7 The 100 digit of the chapters and verses

Mark 4:8

Some Thirty, and some Sixty, and some an Hundred.

 

[liafailrock]

My point is that Jude didn't quote any book or books of Enoch. Jude wrote by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. He didn't have to know anything about the prophecy of Enoch before, whether written or, by tradition. If he did know it by tradition, the only reason he recorded it was because the Holy Spirit led him to. Of course Jude would know who Enoch was. But that only from the Scripture. Not from any so called 'book of Enoch'.

My point is, that whoever the writers of 'Enoch' were, learned of this passage in Jude, and fitted it into their spurious writing of 'Enoch'.

If Josephus said the 'seventh from Adam' then he got it from Scripture. Not the 'book of Enoch'.

My point is that Jude did not say Enoch was the 7th from Adam as a 'statement of address' as you say. He said it because God inspired him to say it and that it therefore has meaning connected with the whole of the Revelation we have of God.

Stranger

I'll let your first paragraph go because I agree about the inspiration part but.....

No, I'm sorry. The book of Enoch, at least 1 Enoch antedated Jude. I understand spurious writings and authors who are not who they say they are. But yes, people did know about and call Enoch the seventh from Adam before Jude mentioned him that way. They did not get the idea from Jude. Here's my source. Book of Enoch - Wikipedia

Also read the talk section about disputing the dates. I can't find anything about this part of Enoch being from Jude's time frame, and if anything, the Ethiopians believe it's older than 3rd century because they believe Enoch actually wrote it. One comment actually said that Jude claims he was quoting Enoch in verse 14. I can see how one believes that, but the wording of the verse as it now stands is not precise enough IMO to come to that conclusion. Rather, I personally believe that by virtual of it being verbatim to Enoch's writings.

 

[FHII]

I'll let your first paragraph go because I agree about the inspiration part but.....

No, I'm sorry. The book of Enoch, at least 1 Enoch antedated Jude. I understand spurious writings and authors who are not who they say they are. But yes, people did know about and call Enoch the seventh from Adam before Jude mentioned him that way. They did not get the idea from Jude. Here's my source. Book of Enoch - Wikipedia

Also read the talk section about disputing the dates. I can't find anything about this part of Enoch being from Jude's time frame, and if anything, the Ethiopians believe it's older than 3rd century because they believe Enoch actually wrote it. One comment actually said that Jude claims he was quoting Enoch in verse 14. I can see how one believes that, but the wording of the verse as it now stands is not precise enough IMO to come to that conclusion. Rather, I personally believe that by virtual of it being verbatim to Enoch's writings.

Iiafailrock,

Long day... Foggy mind! Im not sure what your point of view is. Do you believe that Enoch wrote the Book of Enoch? I saw points in your post which make me think you do, and other points which make me think you don't.

My perception is that it was written by a prophet (guided by an angel) telling Enoch's story. In this account the author(s) revert at times to writing in the first person, which makes it sound like Enoch is doing the talking. Then at other times goes away from that format.

I also have a request.... I can't find where in the book of Ench that he's called the 7th from Adam. According to wikipedia its 1 Enoch 60:8.... But that isn't so in my copy. That isn't surorising in that different formats have been used. Anyone know where it is?

 

[Stranger]

I'll let your first paragraph go because I agree about the inspiration part but.....

No, I'm sorry. The book of Enoch, at least 1 Enoch antedated Jude. I understand spurious writings and authors who are not who they say they are. But yes, people did know about and call Enoch the seventh from Adam before Jude mentioned him that way. They did not get the idea from Jude. Here's my source. Book of Enoch - Wikipedia

Also read the talk section about disputing the dates. I can't find anything about this part of Enoch being from Jude's time frame, and if anything, the Ethiopians believe it's older than 3rd century because they believe Enoch actually wrote it. One comment actually said that Jude claims he was quoting Enoch in verse 14. I can see how one believes that, but the wording of the verse as it now stands is not precise enough IMO to come to that conclusion. Rather, I personally believe that by virtual of it being verbatim to Enoch's writings.

Of course it could be known in Jude's day that Enoch was the 7th from Adam. They had the Old Testament to show them that.

The oldest copy where the quote in question is found is 15th century A.D. in Ethiopia. You have parts of the so called book of Enoch found which are earlier yet this verse is not part of those. Therefore Jude's record of this prophecy is older than that found in so called book of Enoch.

So, there is no proof at all that Jude quoted from any book of Enoch. Or, from any book at all.

Since there were several authors of this so called book of Enoch, it is more likely that one of them added later, (Jude 14), to the so called book of Enoch.

Stranger

 

[Retrobyter]

Again, you don't include Adam in the count. It is the 7th 'from' Adam. And you ignore Abel and Cain and his descendants.

Stranger

Shalom, Stranger.

Have you or anyone so far checked the Greek?

Jude 14
14 Proefeeteusen de kai toutois hebdomos apo Adam Henooch legoon, “Idou eelthen Kurios en hagiais muriasin autou."

I find it ridiculous and ironic that people take such stands on nothing but an English translation. I guess they're just hoping beyond hope that the translators did a perfect job. Inspiration of Scripture is guaranteed by God THROUGH HIS PROPHETS, not necessarily through the translators into a different language! We hope and pray they did an adequate translation, but God has NOT guaranteed that such a translation would be perfect in all points. To the contrary, because the work is a translation by human beings, it's almost a sure thing that such a translation SHALL have errors!

Even the Greek is a translation from the Aramaic in which it was probably written, although it was translated more closely from the original than our English versions were. I say this because the author Jude, which itself is a transliteration from the Latin "Iude," pronounced "Yoo-deh," was itself a transliteration from the Greek "Ioudas" spelled iota-omicron-upsilon-delta-alpha-stigma and was pronounced "Yoo-dahs," which in turn was a transliteration of the Hebrew/Aramaic "Y'hudah" spelled yod-hei-dalet-hei and pronounced "Yeh-HOO-dah." (With the common vowel pointing today, it would be spelled "yod-sheva-hei-qibbuts-dalet-patach-hei," more thoroughly defining the pronunciation above.) I should have added that the common Hebrew spelling of the name is "yod-hei-vav-dalet-hei" which is still pronounced "Yeh-HOO-dah" but is more often transliterated with a "w" added for the vav, making the name "Y'huwdah"; this changes the vowel pointing to "yod-sheva-hei-shureq-dalet-patach-hei."

The Greek of this passage shown above in transliteration, literally means the following word-for-word:
14 Proefeeteusen = 14 Prophesied
de = but
kai = and/also
toutois = the
hebdomos = seventh
apo = off/away-from
Adam = Aadaam/Adam
Henooch = Hanowkh/"Enoch"
legoon, = said,
“Idou = "Look
eelthen = comes
Kurios = Lord/Master
en = in
hagiais = saints
muriasin = myriads
autou." = of-his."

The ordinals "hebdomos" and "prootos" (using an "oo" for an omega and an "o" for omicron) in Greek are found in Strong's here:

NT:1442 hebdomos (heb'-dom-os); ordinal from NT:2033; seventh:
KJV - seventh.

NT:4413 prootos (pro'-tos); contracted superlative of NT:4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance):
KJV - before, beginning, best, chief (-est), first (of all), former.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

There was no "zero" in Greek counting, any more than we use "zero" in English counting. The "first" IS "1st!" And, Aadaam was the first man, "ho prootos anthroopos." (1 Cor. 15:45)

Therefore, the problem only exists in our translation of the phrase in Jude 14.

 

[Retrobyter]

Consider this, highlight IT to show the symmetry that you might see and Post it with some observations or just highlight like me .. And Even if no one is up to this challenge, within a day or two, I will do what was asked..... And Show that IT was by His Design

You probably are asking yourself , What is IT!!?

That's IT




The First 30 " Numbers of Pi " cyclical through the 31,102 verses of the Scriptures.

The Reduced Sum~Root value for that verse's chapter and verse numbers / The Total number of digits in the chapter and verse numbers consecutively.
_____________________________________________________

1) 3 verse Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be Light: and there was Light. 4 / 2

2) 31 verse Genesis 1:31 And God saw everything that He had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the Sixth day. 5 / 5

3) 314 verse Genesis 12:15 The princes also of Pharaoh saw her, and commended her before Pharaoh: and the woman was taken into Pharaoh's house. 9 / 9

4) 3141 verse Leviticus 14:29 And the rest of the oil that is in the priest's hand he shall put upon the head of him that is to be cleansed, to make an atonement for him before YHWH 26. 7 / 13

5) 31415/31102 ~ 313 verse Genesis 12:14 26 And it came to pass, that, when Abram was come into Egypt, the Egyptians beheld the woman that she was very fair 8 / 17

6) 314159/31102 ~ 3139 verse Leviticus 14:27 And the priest shall sprinkle with his right finger some of the oil that is in his left hand Seven times before YHWH 26 : 5 / 21

7) 3141592/31102 ~ 290 verse Genesis 11:23 And Serug lived after he begat Nahor Two Hundred years, and begat sons and daughters. 7 / 25

8) 31415926/31102 ~ 2906 vs. Leviticus 7:26 Moreover ye shall eat no manner of blood, whether it be of fowl or of beast, in any of your dwellings 6 / 28

9) 314159265/31102 ~ 29065 vs. Galatians 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Mashiach. 8 / 30

10) 3141592653/31102 ~ 10735 vs. 1 Chronicles 12:14 These were of the sons of Gad, captains of the host: One of the least was over an Hundred, and the Greatest over a Thousand. 8 / 34

11) 31415926535/31102 ~ 14049 vs. Psalms 10:7 His mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud: under his tongue is mischief and vanity. 8 / 37

12) 314159265358/31102 ~ 16090 vs. Psalms 121:8 YHWH shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore 3 / 41

13) 3141592653589/31102 ~ 5399 vs. Deuteronomy 18:14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, YHWH thy God hath not suffered thee so to do. 5 / 45

14)* 31415926535897/31102 ~ 22895 vs. Zechariah 1:16 Therefore thus saith YHWH; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: My House shall be built in it, saith YHWH of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem. 8 / 48

15) 314159265358979/31102 ~ 11245 vs. 2 Chronicles 3:15 Also he made before The House Two pillars of Thirty and Five cubits high, and the chapiter that was on the top of each of them was Five cubits 9 / 51

Occurrences of the Number '5' in the chapter and verse numbers ~ Two (1-15)

Occurrences of the Word ' Five ' in the written text ~ Two (1-15)

The Sum of the numbers in which the two '5's have occurred ~ Thirty

3) 12:15 9th digit of the chapter and verse numbers

15) 3:15 51st digit

~ 60

1215> 9
315 > 9

16) 3141592653589793/31102 ~ 19147 vs. Jeremiah 7:27 Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee. 7 / 54

17) 31415926535897932/31102 ~ 4860 vs. Numbers 35:14 Ye shall give Three cities on this side Jordan, and Three cities shall ye give in the land of Canaan, which shall be cities of refuge. 4 / 58

The 3rd 5 ~ Three + Three ~ The 6th 4 in the chapter and verse numbers, all within the Number 14

18) 314159265358979323/31102 ~ 17501 vs. Ecclesiastes 10:7 I have seen servants upon horses, and princes walking as servants upon the earth. 8 / 61

19) 3141592653589793238/31102 ~ 19508 vs. Jeremiah 23:23 Am I a God at hand, saith YHWH, and not a God afar off? 9 / 65

20) 31415926535897932384/31102 ~ 8472 vs. 2 Samuel 17:22 Then David arose, and all the people that were with him, and they passed over Jordan: by the Morning Light there lacked not one of them that was not gone over Jordan. 3 / 69 ~ Hebrew Total 4717 #120

21)*314159265358979323846/31102 ~ 22522 vs. Obadiah 1:11 In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou wast as one of them. 3 / 72

22) 3141592653589793238462/31102 ~ 7508 vs. 1 Samuel 13:22 So it came to pass in the day of battle, that there was neither sword nor spear found in the hand of any of the people that were with Saul and Jonathan: but with Saul and with Jonathan his son was there found. 8 / 76

23) 31415926535897932384626/31102 ~ 12882 vs. Job 1:12 And YHWH said unto satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So satan went forth from the presence of YHWH. 4 / 79

24) 314159265358979323846264/31102 ~ 4416 vs. Numbers 22:40 And balak offered oxen and sheep, and sent to balaam, and to the princes that were with him. 8 / 83

25) 3141592653589793238462643/31102 ~ 13061 vs. Job 9:9 Which maketh Arcturus, Orion, and Pleiades, and the chambers of the south. 9 / 85

26) 31415926535897932384626433/31102 ~ 6205 vs. Joshua 15:2 And their south border was from the shore of the salt sea, from the bay that looketh southward: 8 / 88

27) 314159265358979323846264338/31102 ~ 30956 vs. Revelation 16:1 And I heard a Great voice out of the temple saying to the Seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the *earth. 8 / 91

28) 3141592653589793238462643383/31102 ~ 29645 vs. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Adonai YESHUA 1 Mashiach. 1 / 94

29) 31415926535897932384626433832/31102 ~ 16534 vs. Proverbs 5:16 Let thy fountains be dispersed abroad, and rivers of waters in the streets. 3 / 97

30) 314159265358979323846264338327/31102 ~ 9837 vs. 2 Kings 11:7 And Two parts of all you that go forth on the Sabbath, even they shall keep the watch of The House of YHWH about the king. 9/100

Total digits in the chapter and verse numbers = 100 (1-30)

1-30 - Occurrences of the Number '7' in the chapter and verse numbers , Its numeric position 1-100 in the chapter and verse numbers, and the Word 'Seven'


6) Leviticus 14:27 The 21 digit ~ 'Seven'

8) Leviticus 7:26 The 26 digit

9) Galatians 1:7 The 30 digit

11) Psalms 10:7 The 37 digit

16) Jeremiah 7:27 The 52 digit and the 54 digit

18) Ecclesiastes 10:7 The 61 digit ~ 7 occurrence

20) 2 Samuel 17:22 The 67 digit -13

27) Revelation 16:1 ~Seven~

30) 2 Kings 11:7 The 100 digit of the chapters and verses

Mark 4:8

Some Thirty, and some Sixty, and some an Hundred.

Shalom, Ebed232.

Just what in the world do you think you are doing? God did NOT design His Word around PI! Pi is simply the Greek letter used in mathematics as the symbol for the number that represents the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter. What does THAT have to do with the Bible?!

I'm a bit of a mathematician and have studied the calculus and integrals, differential equations, and Fourier series. I've worked with and taught algebra, geometry, trigonometry, and some calculus to high school students, and have memorized pi to 30 places past the decimal with the following poem:

Now, I will a rhyme construct
By chosen words the young instruct;
Cunningly devised endeavour,
Con it and remember ever;
Widths in circle here you see,
Sketched out in strange obscurity...

Simply count the number of letters in each word, string them together with a decimal point after the first number, and you have pi to 30 places past the decimal.

HOWEVER, what you are doing is simply another form of the infinite possibilites of GEMATRIA! You're just PLAYING with the numbers HOPING that they mean something when you're finished! News flash: It won't do anything meaningful. You'd be much better off learning Hebrew and Greek! Then, you can at least see what God meant when He said such things as "Let there be light!" "Yhiy owr!" This would be MUCH more constructive than this numbers manipulation you're doing.

 

[liafailrock]

Iiafailrock,

Long day... Foggy mind! Im not sure what your point of view is. Do you believe that Enoch wrote the Book of Enoch? I saw points in your post which make me think you do, and other points which make me think you don't.

My perception is that it was written by a prophet (guided by an angel) telling Enoch's story. In this account the author(s) revert at times to writing in the first person, which makes it sound like Enoch is doing the talking. Then at other times goes away from that format.

I also have a request.... I can't find where in the book of Ench that he's called the 7th from Adam. According to wikipedia its 1 Enoch 60:8.... But that isn't so in my copy. That isn't surorising in that different formats have been used. Anyone know where it is?

Sure. Here is a .pdf link so that you can either download it to your computer or devices, whatever you have:

http://www.markfoster.net/rn/texts/AllBooksOfEnoch.pdf

I was discussing primarily the 1st book of Enoch, and like you believe it could have been passed by oral tradition and fragments of writings from something that Enoch wrote or said. Some Christians believe it could have been directly written by Enoch. I'm not 100% sure other than it's very old. The other editions came out at different times. I'm comfortable with that. Unlike my younger days, I don't need to have things black and white any longer, but that fact does not indicate there isn't specific truth -- I'm referring to my understanding of said truth.

 

[Ebed232]

Shalom, Ebed232.

Just what in the world do you think you are doing? God did NOT design His Word around PI! Pi is simply the Greek letter used in mathematics as the symbol for the number that represents the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter. What does THAT have to do with the Bible?!

I'm a bit of a mathematician and have studied the calculus and integrals, differential equations, and Fourier series. I've worked with and taught algebra, geometry, trigonometry, and some calculus to high school students, and have memorized pi to 30 places past the decimal with the following poem:

Now, I will a rhyme construct
By chosen words the young instruct;
Cunningly devised endeavour,
Con it and remember ever;
Widths in circle here you see,
Sketched out in strange obscurity...

Simply count the number of letters in each word, string them together with a decimal point after the first number, and you have pi to 30 places past the decimal.

HOWEVER, what you are doing is simply another form of the infinite possibilites of GEMATRIA! You're just PLAYING with the numbers HOPING that they mean something when you're finished! News flash: It won't do anything meaningful. You'd be much better off learning Hebrew and Greek! Then, you can at least see what God meant when He said such things as "Let there be light!" "Yhiy owr!" This would be MUCH more constructive than this numbers manipulation you're doing.

Yahi Aur ~ Let there be light = 232 in the Hebrew, the same as my Name... You definitely could do something more constructive than to be against what GOD has done and is doing ... Faith according to the Bible is based on Evidence of things not seen, and this is HIS evidence that you regard as nothing... we'll see who is on the right side of this matter come the Judgment... count on it

and

pi is just one example of the Mighty Works of the Most High, for which nothing is impossible...

The following came to me to do when I was looking for more Evidence that the Scriptures were planned by YHWH to have exactly 66 books

The first witness was the Menorah, there are 66 decorations on the 7 branches ~

Then, I was Inspired to see what the Bible said about the number 66

and found that the number sixty-six occurred in the text of two verses...


The First occurrence of the number 66 in a Verse: 66 souls

Genesis 46:26 All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls were Sixty-Six; 72 - Hebrew Total 3858

Sixty-six + two + four = 72 = (46+26)

The 3858th vs. Numbers 7:7 Two wagons and Four oxen he gave unto the sons of Gershon, according to their service. 14

~ Two+Two = Four

The Second and Last occurrence of the number 66 in a Verse: 66 days

Leviticus 12:5 But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean Two Weeks (14 days), as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying Sixty-Six days. 17 - Hebrew Total 4493

17 = 7th prime

4493rd vs. Numbers 26:3 And Moses and Eleazar the priest spake with them in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying, 29

17+29 = 46

~~~

46:26

07:07

12:05

26:03

46+26+7+7+12+5+26+3 = 132

66*2 = 132

~~~

Genesis 46:26
כל הנפש הבאה ליעקב מצרימה יצאי ירכו מלבד נשי בני יעקב כל נפש ששים ושש

Hebrew - Word Value
1 כל 50
2 הנפש 435
3 הבאה 13
4 ליעקב 212
5 מצרימה 385
6 יצאי 111
7 ירכו 236
8 מלבד 76
9 נשי 360
10 בני 62
11 יעקב 182
12 כל 50
13 נפש 430
14 ששים 650
15 ושש 606

-> Total 3858

Leviticus 12:5
ואם נקבה תלד וטמאה שבעים כנדתה וששים יום וששת ימים תשב על דמי טהרה

## Word Value
1 ואם 47
2 נקבה 157
3 תלד 434
4 וטמאה 61
5 שבעים 422
6 כנדתה 479
7 וששים 656
8 יום 56
9 וששת 1006
10 ימים 100
11 תשב 702
12 על 100
13 דמי 54
14 טהרה 219

-> Total 4493

Yad 10 Hey 5 Waw 6 Hey 5 = 26 YHWH

1+5+6+5 = 17

Baruch HaShem


Hebrew Bible

If you believe that there are things to difficult for the creator of Heaven and Earth, you have the wrong Elohim

Beware - You may not consider this anything, But YHWH takes this very seriously regardless of your opinion...