The Kingdom of God

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bbyrd009

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#1. I don't prophesy that some singular, likely miraculous "event" is about to occur. it is written in scripture. see that's why I asked you for scripture.
you have accepted an interpretation of a miraculous event because it logically reads that way, but the Revelation of Christ was as valid for a believer 1000 years ago as it is today, and you might keep an open mind, because it is equally possible that it is not written in Scripture at all, and that Scripture is just being interpreted too literally.
 

bbyrd009

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#2. Then you said, "when there is a much better way to look at it, that Christ merely awaits a Prepared Bride, who has built their house on the rock". Christ have his bride already, it's just a matter of consummation.... (smile).
yes, and as "wars and rumors of wars" et al plainly informs us, the time is not yet for the miracle that you believe will happen anyway. How many years away might we be from the absence of war, do you think?

there is a much more important message in the Revelation, that applies to anyone who seeks after Christ, regardless of whether prophecies get fulfilled in a miraculous manner or not. You think you are waiting on Jesus for the wedding, but consider that Christ may just be waiting on you, ok.
 

101G

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you have accepted an interpretation of a miraculous event because it logically reads that way, but the Revelation of Christ was as valid for a believer 1000 years ago as it is today, and you might keep an open mind, because it is equally possible that it is not written in Scripture at all, and that Scripture is just being interpreted too literally.
2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation".
 

101G

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How many years away might we be from the absence of war, do you think?
I don't thing about it at all. I must be about my Father's business.
there is a much more important message in the Revelation, that applies to anyone who seeks after Christ, regardless of whether prophecies get fulfilled in a miraculous manner or not. You think you are waiting on Jesus for the wedding, but consider that Christ may just be waiting on you, ok.
the message is the same that apply to all.

don't mean to be rude, but if you have no scripture to back up what you say, then this conversation is ended.
 

101G

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GINOLJC, to all. to those who have ears to hear.
the kingdom of God is the rule of an eternal, sovereign God over all the universe and beyond..
Zechariah 14:8 "And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one”.
these living waters the Gifts of the Holy Spirit came out from Jerusalem. acts, Acts 2:1-5 "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance". THY KINGDOM COME THY WILL BE DONE IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH. what exciting time we live in. and for our work in these times, Habakkuk 2:13 "Behold, is it not of the LORD of hosts that the people shall labour in the very fire, and the people shall weary themselves for very vanity? 14 For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea". AMEN.
the Kingdom came without observation, in Spirit, Acts 2:1-5. and in person for all to see when the King comes, Revelation 1:7. Amen
 

Retrobyter

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GINOLJC, and happy Father day, true, but in human form, just a smile is a glow to me, and inward, when we say or do something for someone else and we see a difference, there's an inner glow in us which no man can see but the Father. the connection for me is, when two can have a conversation within before a single word is spoken outward.

peace in Christ Jesus
Shalom, 101G.

Well, the good news is that when you DO see Yeshua` return brightly shining like the sun, it will pleasantly surprise you! The bad news is that it will surprise you at all!
 

Retrobyter

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so you say, but to my mind this denies Christ wadr. Christ is present right now, and embodied, and "the kingdom is within you" does not = "Jesus is physically in your midst as king," else you would be seeking a kingdom of the world, like pretty much every other Christian waiting for Jesus to come and save them. Again. Or however that is perceived.

The king is enthroned already. I am not waiting for Jesus to come and establish a worldly kingdom, as we have multiple examples of Him turning that down already. This fits with my desire also, which is my first clue that it is not God's plan. I have watched many people, believers, follow the path of Judas, betraying Jesus with a kiss, thinking to manipulate God with belief, and i would ask anyone who believes in Rapture or some other Physical Return what was the sin of Judas?

Kissing Jesus on the cheek? Identifying Jesus to the Sanhedrin? None of those are sins.

Shalom, bbyrd009.
Guys! You've really got to quit playing around with that "kingdom is within you" nonsense! It DOES INDEED mean that Yeshua` was physically in the middle of the P'rushiym (the Pharisees or the "Separatists"). Yeshua` DID NOT mean that the Kingdom was WITHIN each of them since He was talking to the Pharisees! Did the Pharisees have the Kingdom within THEM?! That's NONSENSE! Of COURSE, they didn't!

The Christ, the Messiah, is definitely NOT "present right now!" You seem like an intelligent person. You do read and pay attention to what you are reading, don't you?

Acts 1:6-11
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them,
It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven (the sky) as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven (into the sky)? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven (into the sky), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (into the sky).
KJV


Why is that so difficult for you to accept and believe?

Yeshua` Himself said, right after Judas Iscariot left to do what he would do,

John 14:1-3
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
KJV


The King is NOT "enthroned already!" He said,

Luke 19:11-28
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore,
A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.
KJV


Also, we read in His Olivet Discourse,

Matthew 25:31-40
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
...
KJV


His Kingdom is NOT a "worldly kingdom." But, you've got to understand that "the world" and "the earth" are two ENTIRELY different things! When He said, "My Kingdom is not of this world," He was saying that His Kingdom was not structured like other kingdoms of this world-SYSTEM (Greek: kosmos) of politics and intrigue! He was ABSOLUTELY NOT saying that His Kingdom was "not of this earth!"

We do NOT have "multiple examples" of Yeshua` "turning down the Kingdom." What we DO have are instances where the zealots were willing to MAKE Him a King BY FORCE, AGAINST HIS WILL, and more importantly, AGAINST HIS FATHER'S WILL! Yeshua` SHALL be the King but He shall be the King in GOD'S TIMING and not before! Read Acts 1:6-7 above again!
 

bbyrd009

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20Being asked by the •Pharisees when the kingdom of God will come, He answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming with something observable; 21no one will say, ‘Look here! ’ or ‘There! ’ For you see, the kingdom of God is among you.”

among you
entos: within, among
Original Word: ἐντός
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: entos
Phonetic Spelling: (en-tos')
Short Definition: within, inside, the inside
Definition: within, inside, the inside.

"“The kingdom of God is not coming with something observable"
"Jesus is not coming back to institute an earthly kingdom like you believe; because by definition that would be something observable"

"nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,'"
which is of course the first thing anyone would do if Jesus came riding up on a white horse, and you can believe "no Jesus, no kingdom" til the day you die if you want, but then by definition you are not the Body of Christ.

and if you want to twist "within" to mean "among" in the sense that the kingdom departed when Jesus left the building, go right ahead.

If you are waiting for Jesus to do anything before the kingdom can manifest, then you are missing the point.
 

Wormwood

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Everyone, we have been having a respectful and encouraging discussion on the book of Revelation. Please do not turn this into another shouting match where specific end times scenarios are insisted while making judgments on the salvation of those who disagree. If any of you would like to add your comments on Revelation as we go through it, you are welcome to. Please just do so in a respectful way and be willing to agree to disagree. Thank you.
 

ScottA

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Questions concerning the Kingdom of God

I have not studied theology. When I read scripture, it seems to speak things multidimensional, things I do not quite understand. I would like to trust it is the spirit teaching, but since I am unsure, I would like to test those things through others who have studied theology and have put in the time dividing the Word of God. Warning: this could be completely wrong and may not align with scripture. Is David a type for God the Father? Is Solomon a type for Jesus Christ, the son—the dead and, now the living child?

1) David has more than any other in scripture.

2) Jesus Christ takes David’s throne.

2) Solomon builds His fathers house and his house. In addition, Solomon builds it out of the trees of Lebanon while scriptures say the trees of Lebanon of High statue will be hewn down. (a foreshadowing of Christ building a temple with no hands.) Isaiah 10:34 "And he shall cut down the thickets of the forest with iron, and Lebanon shall fall by a mighty one." And Psalms 92:12 "The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree: he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon."

3) Solomon means (Shalom) peace. Solomon was given wisdom.

I am sorry, quite a bit of scripture is required:

(1 Kings 1:33) “The king also said unto them, Take with you the servants of your lord, and cause Solomon my son to ride upon mine own mule, and bring him down to Gihon:”


One dead child. One living Child.

(2 Samuel 12) And Nathan departed unto his house. And the Lord struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.

David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.

And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them.

And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?

But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.

Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the Lord, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.

Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.

And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.”

And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the Lord loved him.”

The peculiar test of, One dead child. One living Child. The dead and, now the living child?

Then came there two women, that were harlots, unto the king, and stood before him.

And the one woman said, O my lord, I and this woman dwell in one house; and I was delivered of a child with her in the house.

And it came to pass the third day after that I was delivered, that this woman was delivered also: and we were together; there was no stranger with us in the house, save we two in the house.

And this woman's child died in the night; because she overlaid it.

And she arose at midnight, and took my son from beside me, while thine handmaid slept, and laid it in her bosom, and laid her dead child in my bosom.

And when I rose in the morning to give my child suck, behold, it was dead: but when I had considered it in the morning, behold, it was not my son, which I did bear.

And the other woman said, Nay; but the living is my son, and the dead is thy son. And this said, No; but the dead is thy son, and the living is my son. Thus they spake before the king.

Then said the king, The one saith, This is my son that liveth, and thy son is the dead: and the other saith, Nay; but thy son is the dead, and my son is the living.

And the king said, Bring me a sword. And they brought a sword before the king.

And the king said, Divide the living child in two, and give half to the one, and half to the other.

Then spake the woman whose the living child was unto the king, for her bowels yearned upon her son, and she said, O my lord, give her the living child, and in no wise slay it. But the other said, Let it be neither mine nor thine, but divide it.

Then the king answered and said, Give her the living child, and in no wise slay it: she is the mother thereof.

And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had judged; and they feared the king: for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him, to do judgment.”

Which leads into the question pertaining to the Lords kingdom.

Solomon builds His Father’s house first: (1 Kings 6)

“And the king commanded, and they brought great stones, costly stones, and hewed stones, to lay the foundation of the house.”

“And against the wall of the house he built chambers round about, against the walls of the house round about, both of the temple and of the oracle: and he made chambers round about:”

“And in the eleventh year, in the month Bul, which is the eighth month, was the house finished throughout all the parts thereof, and according to all the fashion of it. So was he seven years in building it.”

Then Solomon(the son) builds his house:

“And his house where he dwelt had another court within the porch, which was of the like work. Solomon made also an house for Pharaoh’s daughter, whom he had taken to wife, like unto this porch. All these were of costly stones, according to the measures of hewed stones, sawed with saws, within and without, even from the foundation unto the coping, and so on the outside toward the great court. And the foundation was of costly stones, even great stones, stones of ten cubits, and stones of eight cubits.” Note Noah’s Ark was pitched within and without.

“And the LORD said unto David my father, Whereas it was in thine heart to build an house unto my name, thou didst well that it was in thine heart. Nevertheless thou shalt not build the house; but thy son that shall come forth out of thy loins, he shall build the house unto my name.”

The completion of (Solomon) the sons house.

“And it came to pass at the end of twenty years, when Solomon had built the two houses, the house of the Lord, and the king’s house,”

It took Solomon 7 years to build his father(David)s house. Could this possibly be the seven day creation? Does the combined total of 20 years(to build the father and sons house) indicate the time frame of the completion of the building of God's house(old testament and new testament) and then the restoration of the Lord's Kingdom. Christ taking David’s Throne?
Yes...I just skimmed through...but your assertions are generally correct.
 

ScottA

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Matthew 25:31-40
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
If I may... You have quoted correctly, but not understood.

If you go to the "end" of a road today, and I go to the "end" of the same road tomorrow...who arrives first? And if you die tomorrow and I die the next day, who shall see the face of God first?

What you have not considered, is that the difference of time regarding the events of this world are only true in the world...but not of eternity, not of the Kingdom. The "then" in the above passage comes to each in their own time, at the end of their time in the world. But that is the perspective of the world. From the perspective of the Kingdom, the same "then" is timeless and without place in the worldly timeline. What is of the world, is of the world, and what is of the Kingdom, is of the Kingdom.

Time is part of the creation, not real by the same definition that is true of the Kingdom. Those who are in Christ, died and rose (past tense) with him. His "end", his "then"...is finished. That which is written, is written. Those who have yet to read of their part of the end...do not change that.

This is what Paul referred to as the renewing of your mind: That we should no more be captive to thinking as the world thinks. If we are in Christ, we are not of the world.
 
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Retrobyter

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If I may... You have quoted correctly, but not understood.

If you go to the "end" of a road today, and I go to the "end" of the same road tomorrow...who arrives first? And if you die tomorrow and I die the next day, who shall see the face of God first?

What you have not considered, is that the difference of time regarding the events of this world are only true in the world...but not of eternity, not of the Kingdom. The "then" in the above passage comes to each in their own time, at the end of their time in the world. But that is the perspective of the world. From the perspective of the Kingdom, the same "then" is timeless and without place in the worldly timeline. What is of the world, is of the world, and what is of the Kingdom, is of the Kingdom.

Time is part of the creation, not real by the same definition that is true of the Kingdom. Those who are in Christ, died and rose (past tense) with him. His "end", his "then"...is finished. That which is written, is written. Those who have yet to read of their part of the end...do not change that.

This is what Paul referred to as the renewing of your mind: That we should no more be captive to thinking as the world thinks. If we are in Christ, we are not of the world.

Shalom, ScottA.

This would be true IF a person "goes to heaven" when he or she dies. However, NOWHERE in Scripture does one say that there is an "immaterial part" of a person that exists after one dies. Instead, we are encouraged to anticipate the RESURRECTION!

Carefully consider the first creation of Adam, the man:

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul.
KJV


Pay VERY CLOSE ATTENTION to the wording of this verse, particularly in the Hebrew! First, YHWH formed the MAN (not the body of the Man) from the dust (or mud) of the ground! The man (haa'aadaam) IS the body! Then, He puffed into his nostrils the puff of life, and the MAN became a living air-breather! The word "nefesh" is the noun form of the verb "nafash":

OT:5315 nephesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):

KJV - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, dead (-ly), desire, [dis-] contented, fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thyself-), them (your)- selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, would have it.

OT:5314 naphash (naw-fash'); a primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):

KJV - (be) refresh selves (-ed).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


Therefore, a "soul" is an "air-breather."
When a "soul," an "air-breather," dies, he "gives up the ghost" or he "gives up the breath" and goes back to the ground from which he, like Adam, was taken. Even Yeshua` (Jesus) Himself said, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit (breath)" (Luke 23:46). One then begins to decay and returns to dust (or he is cremated and turned into ash, the oxidized chemicals of that dust). Only, we have prophetic evidence that this was not Yeshua`s fate:

Psalm 16:9-10
9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (Hebrew: nefshiy l-she'owl = "my-air-breather to-the-grave"); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
KJV


When, Yeshua` raised Elezar (Lazarus) to life, he had been in the tomb four days, and the worry to remove the stone was that "by this time he stinketh," i.e. from decay (John 11:39).

In the Resurrection, God performs the miracle of creation for each of those whom He resurrects. The bodies we were, including our mental make-up and character, all reside within the incredible memory of God Himself. Thus, in the Resurrection (which we are to anticipate, not some "heaven") we will be raised together at approximately the same time. So, in this scenario, who sees the "face of God" first? It depends on the order we each independently have in that Resurrection.

Particularly, those who are resurrected in the Messiah, in Christ, are raised to incorruption and immortality. Those who will be alive at the Messiah's return are transformed into incorruptible, immortal bodies, and we join the resurrected.
 

ScottA

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Shalom, ScottA.

This would be true IF a person "goes to heaven" when he or she dies. However, NOWHERE in Scripture does one say that there is an "immaterial part" of a person that exists after one dies. Instead, we are encouraged to anticipate the RESURRECTION!

Carefully consider the first creation of Adam, the man:

Genesis 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul.
KJV


Pay VERY CLOSE ATTENTION to the wording of this verse, particularly in the Hebrew! First, YHWH formed the MAN (not the body of the Man) from the dust (or mud) of the ground! The man (haa'aadaam) IS the body! Then, He puffed into his nostrils the puff of life, and the MAN became a living air-breather! The word "nefesh" is the noun form of the verb "nafash":

OT:5315 nephesh (neh'-fesh); from OT:5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):

KJV - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, dead (-ly), desire, [dis-] contented, fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thyself-), them (your)- selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, would have it.

OT:5314 naphash (naw-fash'); a primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air):

KJV - (be) refresh selves (-ed).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


Therefore, a "soul" is an "air-breather."
When a "soul," an "air-breather," dies, he "gives up the ghost" or he "gives up the breath" and goes back to the ground from which he, like Adam, was taken. Even Yeshua` (Jesus) Himself said, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit (breath)" (Luke 23:46). One then begins to decay and returns to dust (or he is cremated and turned into ash, the oxidized chemicals of that dust). Only, we have prophetic evidence that this was not Yeshua`s fate:

Psalm 16:9-10
9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (Hebrew: nefshiy l-she'owl = "my-air-breather to-the-grave"); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
KJV


When, Yeshua` raised Elezar (Lazarus) to life, he had been in the tomb four days, and the worry to remove the stone was that "by this time he stinketh," i.e. from decay (John 11:39).

In the Resurrection, God performs the miracle of creation for each of those whom He resurrects. The bodies we were, including our mental make-up and character, all reside within the incredible memory of God Himself. Thus, in the Resurrection (which we are to anticipate, not some "heaven") we will be raised together at approximately the same time. So, in this scenario, who sees the "face of God" first? It depends on the order we each independently have in that Resurrection.

Particularly, those who are resurrected in the Messiah, in Christ, are raised to incorruption and immortality. Those who will be alive at the Messiah's return are transformed into incorruptible, immortal bodies, and we join the resurrected.
You have missed the point...

When the body dies it returns to the dust and the spirit returns to God who gave it. That body which is sown is not the same body that is raised up. We are to be "One" with Christ and God...not something other. God is spirit...and the flesh is not.

As for the timing, the mystery has been revealed as "each in his own order" ("as with Adam"). This is what I have repeated to you.
 

Retrobyter

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You have missed the point...

When the body dies it returns to the dust and the spirit returns to God who gave it. That body which is sown is not the same body that is raised up. We are to be "One" with Christ and God...not something other. God is spirit...and the flesh is not.

As for the timing, the mystery has been revealed as "each in his own order" ("as with Adam"). This is what I have repeated to you.

Shabbat shalom, ScottA.

Not at all. See, the "spirit" (the "breath") returning "to God who gave it" is much like Yeshua` said at His death: "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit."

Luke 23:46
46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said,
Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
KJV


The Greek of this verse is ...

Kata Loukan 23:46
46
Kai fooneesas foonee megalee ho Ieesous eipen, Pater, eis cheiras sou paratithemai to pneuma mou;
touto de eipoon exepneusen
.
UBS Greek New Testament


46 Kai = 46 And/Also
fooneesas = crying-out
foonee = with-a-voice
megalee = great/loud
ho = the
Ieesous = Yeshua`/Jesus
eipen, = said,
Pater, = Father,
eis = into
cheiras = hands
sou = of-thine/thy
paratithemai = I-place-alongside/I-present/I-deposit
to = the
pneuma = breath/wind/"spirit"
mou; = of-me/my;

touto = this
de = but
eipoon = having-said
exepneusen. = He-expired.

46 And/Also crying-out with-a-voice great/loud the Yeshua`/Jesus said, Father, into hands of-thine/thy I-place-alongside/I-present/I-deposit the breath/wind/"spirit" of-me/my; this but having-said He-expired.

46 And crying out with a loud voice, Yeshua` said, "Father, into thy hands I present my breath"; but having said this, He expired.

Often, people ask the wrong questions. Some will ask, "Where is God, the Father?" That's the wrong question. Based on the wrong question, people have answered, "Heaven," or more specifically, "the Third Heaven." The correct question is "Where is the Father NOT?" or "Where ISN'T the Father?" If He is truly OMNIPRESENT or PRESENT EVERYWHERE, there's NOWHERE He is NOT! So, when we give up our breath to God, where does it go? It can go ANYWHERE and still be "in His Father's hands."

Now, let's fix our way of talking: Instead of ...
(1)
"we are a soul" or "we are a spirit" and
"we have a body,"...

we need to understand that, biblically speaking,
(2)
"we are a body" and
"we have a spirit" or "we have a breath."

When we as bodies have "breath," we are "souls"; that is, we are "air-breathers." When we die, we CEASE to be "air-breathers," we CEASE to be "souls," and we as dead bodies are buried in Sh'owl or Hadees, "the Unseen" - the Grave.

This is a VERY hard thing to change. The first way I've mentioned above is SO WELL INGRAINED through the teaching we have received and that we are receiving, that it will pop back into one's vocabulary unbidden!

What happens between the Grave and the Resurrection is what is under scrutiny here. Most people cannot fathom a discontinuity in our existence. Being left behind after a loved one dies is reason enough for most people to have some sort of continuity story to soothe the aching heart--hence, "Heaven," BUT the truth is that the loved one, from our perspective, now "awaits" the Resurrection.

From the loved one's perspective, it will all happen in the "blink of an eye." They will close their eyes in death and reopen them in the Resurrection! For them, no time has passed. Their lives were safe in the loving, complete memory of an immortal, omniscient and benevolent God! The Resurrection is an act of Creation!

You're right when you said, "That body which is sown is not the same body that is raised up." The Messiah Yeshua` (the Christ Jesus), being the first to be so raised to life, is the PATTERN for how our bodies will be raised, or rather, how WE will be raised. (See how easily the unwanted vocabulary returns unbidden?) No one said it would be the same. To the contrary, Paul told us in his treatise on the Resurrection that it would NOT be the same! While he said, "that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die," he also said, "this corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality."
 

101G

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Shalom, 101G.

Well, the good news is that when you DO see Yeshua` return brightly shining like the sun, it will pleasantly surprise you! The bad news is that it will surprise you at all!
GINOLJC, Revelation 22:4a "And they shall see his face". but, 1 Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed". then I can see him as he is.
 

DPMartin

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Shabbat shalom, ScottA.


Often, people ask the wrong questions. Some will ask, "Where is God, the Father?" That's the wrong question. Based on the wrong question, people have answered, "Heaven," or more specifically, "the Third Heaven." The correct question is "Where is the Father NOT?" or "Where ISN'T the Father?" If He is truly OMNIPRESENT or PRESENT EVERYWHERE, there's NOWHERE He is NOT! So, when we give up our breath to God, where does it go? It can go ANYWHERE and still be "in His Father's hands."


thing is who said or where does it say God is Omnipresent? God doesn't dwell in darkness does He? He isn't in the wicked is He? that is somewhere isn't it? God is the Light in the Light therefore dwells in the Light and there is such a place as darkness therefore your saying God dwells in darkness.

scripture says God is omnipotent (Almighty, infinite in power) and the He inhabits eternity, and Heaven, (which isn't everywhere) but omnipresent don't see it.

there are places God called in creation to accommodate the presence of the living, He called heaven the firmament between the waters the waters He called seas the land He called earth, the Light He called day and darkness He called knight. oh yea and man He called Adam which is the place for His Word to be executed in the earth. hence God's place in the earth given to men. just because the father of lies dwells in darkness doesn't mean Satan isn't a spirit that lives. and God doesn't dwell with Satan nor where Satan dwells so your incorrect with that omnipresent stuff.