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I could point out your errors, but as it's impossible to have a rational conversation with you, it would be a waste of time.
Old Man
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No... As has been pointed out to you there is a difference between talking to a picture and talking to a person while looking at a picture. Do you know what Skype is? A "live" picture is on your computer and you talk to the person on the other end of the connection by looking at and interacting with the picture. That's what people are doing when you see them "praying" to a picture or statue. You wouldn't accuse a grandmother of saying she loves her computer while skyping with her grandchildren, would you?
What you are doing is denying the Communion of Saints. This is a doctrine that all Credal (professing a creed) Christians accept. It means that, as members of the Body of Christ, we are in communion with all Christians around the world throughout time and eternity. That's what the Body of Christ is.
You can do this if you want, but be aware that Christianity from the very first century professed the Apostle's Creed which has the line in it: "I believe in the Communion of Saints."
Old Man
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tabletalk
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Seems to be a poor example. That is a real person I am interacting with on Skype. I'm not interacting with the picture; it really is a live person. Quite different than a picture or statue.
When someone prays to Mary they are praying to a living person. It doesn't make any difference whether they are standing on the top of a mountain in the dark or sitting in a room looking at a representation of her (such as a picture or statue). They are simply asking a living person to pray for them.
I don't understand why this is so difficult to grasp.
I don't understand why this is so difficult to grasp.
What errors??? IS Christianity about Christ or your religion??? Christ only ever called men to Himself, its in teh bible , you should read it someday.
Thank you for proving my point that it is impossible to have a rational conversation with you..
Rational, when one has issues with those who follow Christ it is a real problem. When one is in Christ one cannot stand that which opposes Him which is what all religion does. Reducing Jesus to a super star status to drag the people into an entertainment centre, taking away all His authority and making Him into a puppet, than putting pastors and preachers and deacons and men between Him and His children and telling teh world it is a good thing, well save you from Jesus.
Jesus did fine without religion and He will continue to save men without it. In teh end of it all, its you and Him, nothing Hidden as naked as teh day you where born, you cant Hide yourself from Him.
Old Man
New Member
It's time for a little clarity. The following long entry is taken from a new book by Peter Kreeft, Ph.D., professor of philosophy at Boston College and one of the most respected Christian authors of our time. Many, many best-selling books. This essay alone is worth the price of the book, imo.
You can read a decent bio here (pay particular attention to his conversion): Peter Kreeft - Wikipedia
You can buy the book I’m excerpting here (and please do, it’s 34 short essays like this one, that shed light on this division and insights on reunion—highly recommended): Catholics and Protestants
(Beginning of Kreeft excerpt)
The Plant Metaphor Applied to Ecumenism
I like to think of faith, hope, and charity, the three greatest things in the world, the three “theological virtues”, as three parts of a plant: the root (faith), the stem (hope), and the fruit (love). Faith, hope, and charity are not three things but three stages or aspects of the same thing—not three plants but three components of the one plant.
What plant? The plant is our “divinization” (theosis), our participation in the very life of God, zoe, eternal life, supernatural life, salvation, sanctification, the Kingdom of Heaven, the Kingdom of God, regeneration, the new birth, sanctifying grace, the state of grace, God’s presence in the soul—these are all names for the very same thing, though they are not quite synonymous; each gives us another aspect or dimension of this “very same thing”.
That life begins by faith, as its root. It grows and stretches and aspires by hope as its upward-reaching stem. It is consummated by its finest fruit and flower, love. Faith is its stuck-in-the-mud, conservative root, its anchor. Hope is its liberal, optimistic, creative, growing stem. Love is its product, its “bottom line”, its proof, its point, its fruit and flower. Love shows faith and hope. No one can see your faith and hope except by your love.
How does this image apply to ecumenism?
Protestants emphasize the root (faith). Catholics emphasize the fruit (good works, the works of love). Faith is invisible; love is visible. Love is faith made visible. For in the New Testament, love is not an invisible feeling; love is “the works of love”, as that great Protestant Kierkegaard pointed out in that great title of his.
Protestants emphasize faith, and therefore the invisible and the spiritual. For that is the indispensable beginning, that is how God gets His grace to us. Catholics emphasize the incarnational, the bodily; for that is how also God gets His grace to us: through the sacraments.
Protestants emphasize evangelism, which happens when the new believer invites the transmission of God’s grace into the soul by faith, which is invisible. Catholics emphasize sacramentalism, which is the transmission of God’s grace into the soul of the old believer through visible material signs. But Protestants are typically evangelized without being sacramentalized, while Catholics are typically sacramentalized without being evangelized. That is like the foundation and the building competing with each other. Protestantism inherits a big, solid foundation (“The Church’s one foundation is Jesus Christ her Lord”, as the hymn says) and then refuses to build anything on it except a lot of little sheds, while Catholicism is a magnificent skyscraper that has neglected its own foundation.
Obviously, something is out of whack here.
To separate the two—the material and the spiritual, body and soul—is death. Literally.
The danger in Protestantism is to have a religion that is a soul without a body. That is the ancient heresy of Gnosticism. The modern word for it is “spirituality”. (“A dreadful doom”, Chesterton calls it.) The danger in Catholicism is superstition, which is a kind of impersonal, automatic, mechanical materialism, like having a body without a soul. Since we are both body and soul (did everybody hear that shocking news?), we need both.
When Jesus was twelve, His Mother found Him in the Temple. That is the pattern. Unfortunately, too many Catholics often never find Him there (it has been happening ever since Luther’s day), and that is the deepest reason why they seek Him elsewhere. And Protestants typically look for Him not in the Temple (the Church) but only in their own souls, which all too often means in their own very human feelings and experiences. Both are mistakes.
(end of Kreeft excerpt)
You can read a decent bio here (pay particular attention to his conversion): Peter Kreeft - Wikipedia
You can buy the book I’m excerpting here (and please do, it’s 34 short essays like this one, that shed light on this division and insights on reunion—highly recommended): Catholics and Protestants
(Beginning of Kreeft excerpt)
The Plant Metaphor Applied to Ecumenism
I like to think of faith, hope, and charity, the three greatest things in the world, the three “theological virtues”, as three parts of a plant: the root (faith), the stem (hope), and the fruit (love). Faith, hope, and charity are not three things but three stages or aspects of the same thing—not three plants but three components of the one plant.
What plant? The plant is our “divinization” (theosis), our participation in the very life of God, zoe, eternal life, supernatural life, salvation, sanctification, the Kingdom of Heaven, the Kingdom of God, regeneration, the new birth, sanctifying grace, the state of grace, God’s presence in the soul—these are all names for the very same thing, though they are not quite synonymous; each gives us another aspect or dimension of this “very same thing”.
That life begins by faith, as its root. It grows and stretches and aspires by hope as its upward-reaching stem. It is consummated by its finest fruit and flower, love. Faith is its stuck-in-the-mud, conservative root, its anchor. Hope is its liberal, optimistic, creative, growing stem. Love is its product, its “bottom line”, its proof, its point, its fruit and flower. Love shows faith and hope. No one can see your faith and hope except by your love.
How does this image apply to ecumenism?
Protestants emphasize the root (faith). Catholics emphasize the fruit (good works, the works of love). Faith is invisible; love is visible. Love is faith made visible. For in the New Testament, love is not an invisible feeling; love is “the works of love”, as that great Protestant Kierkegaard pointed out in that great title of his.
Protestants emphasize faith, and therefore the invisible and the spiritual. For that is the indispensable beginning, that is how God gets His grace to us. Catholics emphasize the incarnational, the bodily; for that is how also God gets His grace to us: through the sacraments.
Protestants emphasize evangelism, which happens when the new believer invites the transmission of God’s grace into the soul by faith, which is invisible. Catholics emphasize sacramentalism, which is the transmission of God’s grace into the soul of the old believer through visible material signs. But Protestants are typically evangelized without being sacramentalized, while Catholics are typically sacramentalized without being evangelized. That is like the foundation and the building competing with each other. Protestantism inherits a big, solid foundation (“The Church’s one foundation is Jesus Christ her Lord”, as the hymn says) and then refuses to build anything on it except a lot of little sheds, while Catholicism is a magnificent skyscraper that has neglected its own foundation.
Obviously, something is out of whack here.
To separate the two—the material and the spiritual, body and soul—is death. Literally.
The danger in Protestantism is to have a religion that is a soul without a body. That is the ancient heresy of Gnosticism. The modern word for it is “spirituality”. (“A dreadful doom”, Chesterton calls it.) The danger in Catholicism is superstition, which is a kind of impersonal, automatic, mechanical materialism, like having a body without a soul. Since we are both body and soul (did everybody hear that shocking news?), we need both.
When Jesus was twelve, His Mother found Him in the Temple. That is the pattern. Unfortunately, too many Catholics often never find Him there (it has been happening ever since Luther’s day), and that is the deepest reason why they seek Him elsewhere. And Protestants typically look for Him not in the Temple (the Church) but only in their own souls, which all too often means in their own very human feelings and experiences. Both are mistakes.
(end of Kreeft excerpt)
Have you ever talked to anyone who exclaimed: “The Bible never shows anyone praying to anyone other than God! And we can never communicate to anyone who is dead, either; that’s occultic!”
Yet it’s indisputable that Jesus indeed plainly teaches the very thing that they claim is nonexistent in Scripture. In His story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31), we find our compelling prooftext:
Asking Saints to Intercede: Clear Teaching of Jesus
Protestant theology also generally teaches that we can’t talk to anyone who is dead, let alone make intercessory requests to them. Yet King Saul talked to the dead prophet Samuel (1 Sam 28:12-15), Moses and Elijah appeared at the Mount of Transfiguration (Mt 17:1-3), the “Two Witnesses” of Revelation (11:3-13) came back to life again (and talked to folks); so did those who rose after Jesus’ Resurrection (Mt 27:50-53), etc.
Mary and the saints don't answer prayers. They hear our prayers and take them to God, who may or may not answer our prayers. Mary can do NOTHING without God. I hope that clarifies the matter.
James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.
You can't get more "righteous" that someone who is with God.
In Revelation 5:8, the “twenty-four elders” (usually regarded by commentators as dead human beings) “fell down before the Lamb . . . with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” They appear to have other people’s prayers, to present to God. So the obvious question is: what are they doing with them? Why does Revelation present dead saints presenting the prayers of other saints to God?
If they have them, it stands to reason as a rather straightforward deduction, that they heard the initial prayers as well, or at least were granted knowledge of them in some fashion, granted ultimately through the power of God. Revelation 8:3-4 is even more explicit. Rather than equate incense and prayers, it actually distinguishes between them, and presents the scenario that the prayers and incense are presented together:
And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; [4] and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
So the question, again, is: what is this angel doing with “prayers of the saints” — presenting them to God? It seems clear to me that they have heard the prayers, and are involved as intercessors. Angels are extremely intelligent beings. We know that they rejoice when a sinner repents. They have knowledge in ways that we do not; above our comprehension.This is biblical proof that dead saints and angels both somehow have our prayers and present them to God.
They are acting as intercessors and intermediaries. How do they hear our prayers? God gives them the power to do so because they are in heaven and therefore, outside of time. They are aware of earthly events. We know that from Hebrews 12:1 (“we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses”), and from Revelation 6:9-10, where dead saints are praying for those on the earth.
Dialogue: "Why pray to a saint rather than to God?"
Yet it’s indisputable that Jesus indeed plainly teaches the very thing that they claim is nonexistent in Scripture. In His story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31), we find our compelling prooftext:
Asking Saints to Intercede: Clear Teaching of Jesus
Protestant theology also generally teaches that we can’t talk to anyone who is dead, let alone make intercessory requests to them. Yet King Saul talked to the dead prophet Samuel (1 Sam 28:12-15), Moses and Elijah appeared at the Mount of Transfiguration (Mt 17:1-3), the “Two Witnesses” of Revelation (11:3-13) came back to life again (and talked to folks); so did those who rose after Jesus’ Resurrection (Mt 27:50-53), etc.
Mary and the saints don't answer prayers. They hear our prayers and take them to God, who may or may not answer our prayers. Mary can do NOTHING without God. I hope that clarifies the matter.
James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects.
You can't get more "righteous" that someone who is with God.
In Revelation 5:8, the “twenty-four elders” (usually regarded by commentators as dead human beings) “fell down before the Lamb . . . with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” They appear to have other people’s prayers, to present to God. So the obvious question is: what are they doing with them? Why does Revelation present dead saints presenting the prayers of other saints to God?
If they have them, it stands to reason as a rather straightforward deduction, that they heard the initial prayers as well, or at least were granted knowledge of them in some fashion, granted ultimately through the power of God. Revelation 8:3-4 is even more explicit. Rather than equate incense and prayers, it actually distinguishes between them, and presents the scenario that the prayers and incense are presented together:
And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; [4] and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.
So the question, again, is: what is this angel doing with “prayers of the saints” — presenting them to God? It seems clear to me that they have heard the prayers, and are involved as intercessors. Angels are extremely intelligent beings. We know that they rejoice when a sinner repents. They have knowledge in ways that we do not; above our comprehension.This is biblical proof that dead saints and angels both somehow have our prayers and present them to God.
They are acting as intercessors and intermediaries. How do they hear our prayers? God gives them the power to do so because they are in heaven and therefore, outside of time. They are aware of earthly events. We know that from Hebrews 12:1 (“we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses”), and from Revelation 6:9-10, where dead saints are praying for those on the earth.
Dialogue: "Why pray to a saint rather than to God?"
Old Man
New Member
You: That is a real person I am interacting with on Skype.
Catholic: That is a real person I am interacting with in my prayers.
You: I'm not interacting with the picture; it really is a live person.
Catholic: I'm not interacting with a picture; it really is a live person.
You: Quite different than a picture or statue.
Catholic: How's that again?
Old Man
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bbyrd009
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why either of you see fit to debate Catholic concepts on a supposedly Christian forum is beyond many of us anyway. It is like trying to mix water and oil
ya, and King Saul is such a great example for us to be following lol. sheesh. Scripture says "do not" It doesn't say that one cannot (talk to the dead)
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bbyrd009
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no it is not, it is a perspective, that would naturally appeal to a polytheistic pagan who believes in many gods, and you are just revealing your heart in the matter, the same as your avatar reveals you in a certain light--not saying good or bad, understand, just that we have a blind spot where self is concerned.
You might naturally be compelled to ignore anyone who does not reinforce your perspective of a church that is a worldly institution, that relies on force to enforce a certain understanding about God. A "strong man" seems to be what you proudly aspire to be considered as, with all due respect. "Recognize my badness."
Old Man
New Member
I've been wading through this thread and I must say most of the interaction here has not been helpful. I'm far from perfect myself, and I do enjoy some of the smackdowns, but may I suggest we tone it down a little? Especially from the Catholic side. The OP has given us an opportunity to express our views and this is how we use it? Just don’t take the bait! Here's how I try to moderate myself.
1. I know that I'm never going to change the person's mind with whom I'm having the disagreement. Never going to happen, and even if it does they are never going to admit it on the board. We’re never going to win this person’s soul, especially if we win the argument and humiliate them.
2. I thank God for the opportunity to express my faith and try not to blow it by getting into grudge matches with individual posters.
3. My target audience is always the lurker. For every one person who posts there are probably hundreds of folks who just like to read so they can get both sides. Imagine if an atheist, JW, Mormon, Jew or Muslim were reading this and considering Christianity. What would they think?
4. My goal should never be to win an argument or to prove the other wrong. Jesus wants unity so that the world can come to believe that the Father sent Him.
Oh, and speaking of Muslims. They’re coming folks! We see it already in Europe. They move in and form ghettos with their own Sharia courts. They have six babies to every one Christian baby born. They very quickly become a powerful minority and they vote. I call it demographic colonization. They’ll soon constitute majorities in Western countries. And here we are, fighting amongst ourselves on whether Catholics talk to pictures or to the persons the pictures represent.
It won’t be the first time God uses pagan hoards to chastise His people.
1. I know that I'm never going to change the person's mind with whom I'm having the disagreement. Never going to happen, and even if it does they are never going to admit it on the board. We’re never going to win this person’s soul, especially if we win the argument and humiliate them.
2. I thank God for the opportunity to express my faith and try not to blow it by getting into grudge matches with individual posters.
3. My target audience is always the lurker. For every one person who posts there are probably hundreds of folks who just like to read so they can get both sides. Imagine if an atheist, JW, Mormon, Jew or Muslim were reading this and considering Christianity. What would they think?
4. My goal should never be to win an argument or to prove the other wrong. Jesus wants unity so that the world can come to believe that the Father sent Him.
Oh, and speaking of Muslims. They’re coming folks! We see it already in Europe. They move in and form ghettos with their own Sharia courts. They have six babies to every one Christian baby born. They very quickly become a powerful minority and they vote. I call it demographic colonization. They’ll soon constitute majorities in Western countries. And here we are, fighting amongst ourselves on whether Catholics talk to pictures or to the persons the pictures represent.
It won’t be the first time God uses pagan hoards to chastise His people.
I love the way you guys twist things. "We're not talking to the picture, we're talking to the person in the picture."
It's the exact same thing. You're asking an image to speak on your behalf.
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