Catholics

[aspen]

Hi Aspen,

I am not sure how you can say that they 'have never claimed their churches to be authoritative' when HISTORICAL FACTS prove you wrong. Read a history book or do a Google search about the violence The Reformers used to enforce their authority (doctrine) in the same way the RCC did.

Sola Scriptura is the doctrine which holds that Christian scripture is the sole infallible rule of faith and practice. The Reformers enforced THEIR INFALLIBLE INTERPETATION with excommunications, violence and executions just like the RCC did.

Mary

Because you fail to understand my post

 

[aspen]

Authority is found in the Scriptures and Sacred Tradition according to Roman Catholic dogma.

Authority is found only in Scripture according to Protestant teaching.

Due to the fact that Roman Catholicism claims Sacred Tradition as authority places them in a different position than Protestantism. A higher standard is required in order to be recognized as authoritative - when you BoL, compare the imperfections of your church with Protestantism you are failing to acknowledge the higher standard

It is similar to Christians claiming that marriage is qualitatively better for Christians; yet, sharing the same divorce rate as the national average and then making statements like 'well, we are all humans'

It nullifies authority

 

[Marymog]

Because you fail to understand my post

What am I failing to understand? I quoted you?

The HISTORICAL FACTS prove your quotes to be wrong.

Mary

 

[ScottA]

It is erroneous to say that Christ didn't establish hierarchy in His Church.
Paul emphasizes this very thing:
1 Cor. 12:28
And God has placed in the church first of all apostles (bishops), second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.

1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and WHO ARE OVER YOU IN THE LORD and who admonish you,

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

We've already established by Acts 1:20 that the office of Apostle (Bishop) is one of succession.
As for Peter . . .

As you know, the Lord said to Peter, “And so I say to you, you are Peter (Petros), and upon this rock (Petra) I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”

Non-Catholics usually say that Peter is not the Rock but that the Rock refers to his confession of faith. It couldn’t be Peter because the Greek words used here are Petros, meaning, small stone and Petra, meaning, large mass of rock. They say that the Rock is Jesus because he is referred to as Rock elsewhere, including, Matt. 21:42 and 1 Pet. 2:3-8. The problem with this is that Jesus didn’t speak Greek to his Apostles - he spoke Aramaic.

What Jesus actually said was, “And so I say to you, you are Kepha, and upon this rock Kepha I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.”

This is why St. Peter is referred to as Cephas in many of St. Paul’s letters, because Cephas is the closest Greek transliteration of the Aramaic, Kepha.

There is another problem for non-Catholics. Petra is a feminine Greek noun and could hardly be used to describe a man, so the word was translated as Petros in Scripture because it was being used in reference to a man. Jesus clearly appointed St. Peter as earthly head of the Church and Chief Apostle here in Matthew’s Gospel as well as Luke 22:31-32, where he told Peter that he prayed for him (singular) to strengthen the other Apostles in his absence and in John 21:15-19, where he told Peter alone 3 times to feed his sheep.

You are not paying attention. I said "both" Peter and the spirit of God are "the rock." The problem is, that Catholics should never have assumed the Higher position.

And the only thing that has "been established" is that Christ has defined the building of his church by the same means that Peter received the knowledge of who Jesus was (that was Jesus' question).

 

[Marymog]

Authority is found in the Scriptures and Sacred Tradition according to Roman Catholic dogma.

Authority is found only in Scripture according to Protestant teaching.

Due to the fact that Roman Catholicism claims Sacred Tradition as authority places them in a different position than Protestantism. A higher standard is required in order to be recognized as authoritative - when you BoL, compare the imperfections of your church with Protestantism you are failing to acknowledge the higher standard

It is similar to Christians claiming that marriage is qualitatively better for Christians; yet, sharing the same divorce rate as the national average and then making statements like 'well, we are all humans'

It nullifies authority

Who or what is YOUR authority aspen?

Curious Mary

 

[aspen]

What am I failing to understand? I quoted you?

The HISTORICAL FACTS prove your quotes to be wrong.

Mary

You interpreted what I posted incorrectly.

1. The Reformers claimed the Bible as their only authority, according to their teachings on Luther's doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

2. Yet, in practice, their interpretation of scripture, which they taught to their followers was not open to debate. Calvin executed followers as heretics for dissection. Antibaptists were killed by followers of other Protestant sects.

So which is it? Sola Scripture or the Bible AND the doctrine of Luther? Calvin? Knox? King Henry? Zwingli? The answer depends on who you ask. The Reformers didn't practice what they preached on the subject of authority, but neither them nor their followers could see it.

 

[ScottA]

Can you tell me WHEN the Catholic Church went astray with this "following of the flesh", as you put it?? WHEN did it draw "first blood"??

You must know.
EVERYTHING on earth has a beginning . . .

No, I cannot. It's not my story. But here we are...and the Catholic denomination has arrived long ago at their position of naming Peter the first Pope and taking the path of revering a substitute for "God with us", and His Help, the Holy Spirit.

 

[aspen]

I am a member of the Roman Catholic Church - I joined as an adult, after several years of study. I attend Mass and I am also attending a Quaker Church. My authority is Sacred Tradition and Scripture.

 

[Job]

1 Thessalonians 5
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Praying to statues. The appearance of evil.

 

[aspen]

1 Thessalonians 5
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Good point, Job

Making judgments about a teaching of another church without acknowledging what is actually being taught does appear evil.

 

[ScottA]

Really??
What do you tell God when He commands the following through His servant Paul??

1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU in the Lord and who admonish you,

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

Rulers, elders, and the like, are not the problem. It is assuming the position of Head - that is the problem.

But since you ask, I will ask you a question: What do you tell God, when you revere a women (of the bride of Christ) for not being silent in the church?

 

[Marymog]

You are not paying attention. I said "both" Peter and the spirit of God are "the rock." The problem is, that Catholics should never have assumed the Higher position.

And the only thing that has "been established" is that Christ has defined the building of his church by the same means that Peter received the knowledge of who Jesus was (that was Jesus' question).

The NT says that Peter is The Rock. Where does it say that the spirit of God is the rock? I can't find it.

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

You interpreted what I posted incorrectly.

1. The Reformers claimed the Bible as their only authority, according to their teachings on Luther's doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

2. Yet, in practice, their interpretation of scripture, which they taught to their followers was not open to debate. Calvin executed followers as heretics for dissection. Antibaptists were killed by followers of other Protestant sects.

So which is it? Sola Scripture or the Bible AND the doctrine of Luther? Calvin? Knox? King Henry? Zwingli? The answer depends on who you ask. The Reformers didn't practice what they preached on the subject of authority, but neither them nor their followers could see it.

Thank you.

That clears things up. I agree with you 100%.

Love Mary

 

[Job]

Where does it say that the spirit of God is the rock? I can't find it.

1 Corinthians 10
1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3 all ate the same spiritual food,
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

 

[Marymog]

No, I cannot. It's not my story. But here we are...and the Catholic denomination has arrived long ago at their position of naming Peter the first Pope and taking the path of revering a substitute for "God with us", and His Help, the Holy Spirit.

You are right; it was long ago.

According to my research they named Peter as their first Pope (head of the Church) in AD 211 when Eusebius wrote that Victor was the thirteenth bishop of Rome from Peter.

Can you name another "denomination" that can trace their history back that far?

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

1 Corinthians 10
1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3 all ate the same spiritual food,
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

I agree with you it says that the rock was Christ. I simply asked 'Where does it say that the spirit of God is the rock?" You failed to answer me.

Care to try again?

Mary

 

[Job]

Good point, Job

Making judgments about a teaching of another church without acknowledging what is actually being taught does appear evil.

Thanks for alerting me to that. I will start adding captions to my posts.

Thanks man.

 

[Job]

You failed to answer me.

Care to try again?

Not really.

 

[Job]

 

[aspen]

You are right; it was long ago.

According to my research they named Peter as their first Pope (head of the Church) in AD 211 when Eusebius wrote that Victor was the thirteenth bishop of Rome from Peter.

Can you name another "denomination" that can trace their history back that far?

Curious Mary

Coptic, Orthodoxy