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bbyrd009

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What do you mean?
SOMEBODY HAS THE ANSWER!!
Who?
well, short answer "God," and imo all other "truth" is subjective, which is why we have Word, which is not Bible. Otherwise i might find myself giving nutritional advice to an Eskimo that includes "be sure to eat your vegetables" lol.

as i am hard to understand, i'll rephrase that "seek your own salvation."
So iow YOU, the man on the scene in possession of the facts, seeking to follow Christ, and open to advice, and knows what Word is, is the guy who has "the answer."

2he who says he knows anything does not yet know as he ought

and welcome, btw :)
 

GodsGrace

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well, short answer "God," and imo all other "truth" is subjective, which is why we have Word, which is not Bible. Otherwise i might find myself giving nutritional advice to an Eskimo that includes "be sure to eat your vegetables" lol.

as i am hard to understand, i'll rephrase that "seek your own salvation."
So iow YOU, the man on the scene in possession of the facts, seeking to follow Christ, and open to advice, and knows what Word is, is the guy who has "the answer."

2he who says he knows anything does not yet know as he ought

and welcome, btw :)
What do you mean by:
"we have Word, which is not Bible." ??

P.S. Nice to be here!
 

bbyrd009

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What do you mean by:
"we have Word, which is not Bible." ??

P.S. Nice to be here!
Word requires Breath, hot on your neck. Bible comes from Word, is "God~Breathed" iow, but It is not Word. I would even put It below the Book of Truth myself. The Scriptures that might seem to imply that Bible is Word can be examined for this, and usually you find "words" (quite cleverly) inserted at the last mo after a discussion or mention of "Word," stuff like that; but the following usually also helps clarify this i guess

"In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God."

i used to tell people that there was no truth in the Bible, but that gets taken wrong;
and i guess a better way to put it might be that It contains every truth, hence the Scriptural justification for pretty much any position, right. Whatever doctrine guy 1 has, guy 2 has a competing and equally valid (to himself) doctrine, etc.
 
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GodsGrace

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Word requires Breath, hot on your neck. Bible comes from Word, is "God~Breathed" iow, but It is not Word. I would even put It below the Book of Truth myself. The Scriptures that might seem to imply that Bible is Word can be examined for this, and usually you find "words" (quite cleverly) inserted at the last mo after a discussion or mention of "Word," stuff like that; but the following usually also helps clarify this i guess

"In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God."

i used to tell people that there was no truth in the Bible, but that gets taken wrong;
and i guess a better way to put it might be that It contains every truth, hence the Scriptural justification for pretty much any position, right. Whatever doctrine guy 1 has, guy 2 has a competing and equally valid (to himself) doctrine, etc.
This is very interesting.
Unfortunately, I don't understand it!
o_O

Are you saying Jesus is the Word and the Word is more important than the bible?
Are you saying we depend too much on the bible?
We're not supposed to be people of the book, as you must know.
We follow Jesus, not a book.
But what we know of Him comes from a book.
But it doesn't stop there. We get to know Him personally. Which is why it's called a personal relationship.

About the doctrine of guy 1 and guy 2.
Maybe you could prove different conepts by using the bible,
but between guy 1 and guy 2, one is right and one is wrong.

No?
 
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bbyrd009

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Unfortunately, I don't understand it!
oh...yes you do, it is just the voice on your right shoulder, like that
Are you saying Jesus is the Word and the Word is more important than the bible?
yes, that is one way to put it, sure. God is Word, Christ is Word, and i guess even Gospel is Word. Pretty sure Word won't contradict Scripture tho
 

bbyrd009

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Are you saying we depend too much on the bible?
hmm. i depend more on the Bible now that i have found Word, but yes, even if "depend" is not the best word there. More like maybe "idolize," as "In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God" kind of shows.

Bible is made into God for most church people, even though they cannot state a single objective truth from Scripture; or at least no one has been able to yet. The closest was by someone on this forum i think it was, "thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart..." which strikes me as an ideal more than a truth tbh
 

bbyrd009

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About the doctrine of guy 1 and guy 2.
Maybe you could prove different conepts by using the bible,
but between guy 1 and guy 2, one is right and one is wrong.

No?
imo this is an illusion, and a better path is to realize that they are both right in their contexts, or their own minds or whatever. Both have Scripture, and both have an interpretation. And God will honor whatever one believes, as strange as that sounds, but "Who told you that you were naked?" points to the entirety of God's condemnation ("nope, you are wrong") of His children imo, or iow "If you believe that then Who am I to try to convince you different; after all, it is you that will reap from that sowing."
Pretty sure any instances of God's "judgement" in Scripture derive from the actions of the adjudged, not the beliefs?

i wasn't going to get into this next part again because i'm pretty sure everyone else is sick of it, but you might check this out, it's pretty surreal too :)

"either A or notA, no grey areas" is a poor way to understand reality imo
 

bbyrd009

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Maybe you could prove different conepts by using the bible,
but between guy 1 and guy 2, one is right and one is wrong.

No?
you or @Rollo Tamasi are welcome to try and prove some concept from Scripture if you think you can, but pls do it @ the link so we don't derail here ty.

Convinced, when one stands in front of God, how can one not be convinced. You really do not understand what your are missing out on.
witness what we do, see. I feel no different than mjr, he just does not understand what he's missing lol. Vanity is all it is
 

GodsGrace

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oh...yes you do, it is just the voice on your right shoulder, like that

yes, that is one way to put it, sure. God is Word, Christ is Word, and i guess even Gospel is Word. Pretty sure Word won't contradict Scripture tho
Word doesn't contradict scripture because Word IS scripture.
But WE like to make Word contradict scripture.
 

GodsGrace

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hmm. i depend more on the Bible now that i have found Word, but yes, even if "depend" is not the best word there. More like maybe "idolize," as "In the beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God" kind of shows.

Bible is made into God for most church people, even though they cannot state a single objective truth from Scripture; or at least no one has been able to yet. The closest was by someone on this forum i think it was, "thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart..." which strikes me as an ideal more than a truth tbh
I agree!
And you're looking for a truth?
JESUS IS the TRUTH!
If one just follows HIM and DOES what HE said, you will be following truth.

It's kind of like reading a book about your girlfriend or wife.
Better to hang out with the gf or wife than to read the book about her!
 

GodsGrace

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imo this is an illusion, and a better path is to realize that they are both right in their contexts, or their own minds or whatever. Both have Scripture, and both have an interpretation. And God will honor whatever one believes, as strange as that sounds, but "Who told you that you were naked?" points to the entirety of God's condemnation ("nope, you are wrong") of His children imo, or iow "If you believe that then Who am I to try to convince you different; after all, it is you that will reap from that sowing."
Pretty sure any instances of God's "judgement" in Scripture derive from the actions of the adjudged, not the beliefs?

i wasn't going to get into this next part again because i'm pretty sure everyone else is sick of it, but you might check this out, it's pretty surreal too :)

"either A or notA, no grey areas" is a poor way to understand reality imo
I agreed with everything except for the last sentence:
either A or not A, no grey areas.
I think that in christianity there are no grey areas.
We're either following God or we're following the enemy.
Jesus said there are two paths, not three.
Two means something is black or it's White.

As to the rest, I couldn't agree more.
I believe we will be judged by our following Jesus, and not by our doctrine.
We will be judged by what we know, not what someone else knows.

HOWEVER, I must say that I post also for those reading along who may not even be posting. So never tire of saying what you want to say.

For instance, I understand about how persons living 2,000 years ago in a different part of the world understood things differently, which is why I think it's funny how we sometimes think we understand all of he bible.

I don't use Prof. Google.
Would you mind explaining what you mean be dialectic?
 
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bbyrd009

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I agreed with everything except for the last sentence:
either A or not A, no grey areas.
I think that in christianity there are no grey areas.
We're either following God or we're following the enemy.
Jesus said there are two paths, not three.
Two means something is black or it's White.
unfortunately what inevitably comes with that is that one comes to believe that they are the arbiter of which is which, or that they can define these better than anyone else for everyone else. Life is a grey area.
 

bbyrd009

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Would you mind explaining what you mean be dialectic?
the link would do better at that, post 1, but be advised that there is also a "dialectic" that is defined as not Eastern thinking but like "satan's way of arguing," that you might find by searching "dialectic" onsite. Personally i think they are just denials of Eastern thought by lovers of logic--which i don't mean to imply that logic does not have a place--who are eager to insist that the Bible is the Word, and Jesus is God, by way of validating their beliefs and discounting everyone else's, but that is just imo.

Western Logic Versus Eastern Dialecticism
Aristotle placed at the foundations of logical thought the following three propositions.
1. Identity: A = A. Whatever is, is. A is itself and not some other thing.
2. Noncontradiction: A and not A can't both be the case. Nothing can both be and not be. A proposition and its opposite can't both be true.
3. Excluded middle: Everything must either be or not be. A or not A can be true but not something in between.

Modern Westerners accept these propositions (but Easterners do not)...
...three principles underlie Eastern dialecticism. Notice I didn't say "propositions..." the term "proposition" has much too formal a ring for what is a generalized stance toward the world rather than a set of ironclad rules.

1. Principle of change:
Reality is a process of change.
What is currently true will shortly be false.
2. Principle of contradiction:
Contradiction is the dynamic underlying change.
Because change is constant, contradiction is constant.
3. Principle of relationships (or holism):
The whole is more than the sum of its parts.
Parts are meaningful only in relation to the whole...

These principles are intimately linked...
The principles also imply another important tenet of Eastern thought, which is the insistence on finding the "middle way" between extreme propositions...
...and Talmudic scholars developed it over the next two millennia and more.

"Mindware" Richard E. Nisbett, pp. 224-5
 
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GodsGrace

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the link would do better at that, post 1, but be advised that there is also a "dialectic" that is defined as not Eastern thinking but like "satan's way of arguing," that you might find by searching "dialectic" onsite. Personally i think they are just denials of Eastern thought by lovers of logic--which i don't mean to imply that logic does not have a place--who are eager to insist that the Bible is the Word, and Jesus is God, by way of validating their beliefs and discounting everyone else's, but that is just imo.

Western Logic Versus Eastern Dialecticism
Aristotle placed at the foundations of logical thought the following three propositions.
1. Identity: A = A. Whatever is, is. A is itself and not some other thing.
2. Noncontradiction: A and not A can't both be the case. Nothing can both be and not be. A proposition and its opposite can't both be true.
3. Excluded middle: Everything must either be or not be. A or not A can be true but not something in between.

Modern Westerners accept these propositions (but Easterners do not)...
...three principles underlie Eastern dialecticism. Notice I didn't say "propositions..." the term "proposition" has much too formal a ring for what is a generalized stance toward the world rather than a set of ironclad rules.

1. Principle of change:
Reality is a process of change.
What is currently true will shortly be false.
2. Principle of contradiction:
Contradiction is the dynamic underlying change.
Because change is constant, contradiction is constant.
3. Principle of relationships (or holism):
The whole is more than the sum of its parts.
Parts are meaningful only in relation to the whole...

These principles are intimately linked...
The principles also imply another important tenet of Eastern thought, which is the insistence on finding the "middle way" between extreme propositions...
...and Talmudic scholars developed it over the next two millennia and more.

"Mindware" Richard E. Nisbett, pp. 224-5
You're right! I understand Western logic more.
I also undersand 1 and 3 of the Eastern priciples, but not 2.

Thanks for the reply.
 

bbyrd009

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You're right! I understand Western logic more.
I also undersand 1 and 3 of the Eastern priciples, but not 2.

Thanks for the reply.
well, i was raised to think logically myself, and ya, that one is maybe the hardest to grasp. I was initially drawn to this discussion because Scripture is so full of apparent contradictions, yet i kept hearing how Scripture never contradicts Itself. It gradually dawned on me that these contradictions were prolly intended; the alternative being that the writers were idiots writing in a vacuum, unaware and regardless of any other Scripture.

so lately--being a health conscious type--i have used the story of "eating your vegetables," that being perfectly sound advice. Unless you are an Eskimo et al, of course, wherein it makes no sense at all :)

but really, what is life if not a series of situations in which our old understanding is right enough, until it is not right at all?
 
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bbyrd009

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Maybe you can explain what it is im missing.
ha. you aren't missing anything, that is the point. Who told you that you were naked? An accuser, that's who.

but if i expect you as one Body part to conform to my idea of truth, me being a different Body part, then it is i that am missing, not you. i have then entered the Holy of Holies, and proclaimed myself God.

It's a reflection of the old "to keep the test fair, you will all climb this tree" thing. imo
 
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