Catholics

[bbyrd009]

So let us wait then on our friend, @bbyrd009 and allow him to clarify his own position.

Christ is Word, so if i said something that seemed to refute that, i take it back!

 

[bbyrd009]

He separates the Scriptures from Jesus and says that one is not the other.

well, got a v linking them?

 

[amadeus]

Christ is Word, so if i said something that seemed to refute that, i take it back!

Apparently @BreadOfLife has a misunderstanding of what you believe, which is quite close if not the same as what I believe on this point. Perhaps he then also misunderstands what I believe. One of his real problems in understanding others is not understanding that not everyone uses or even understands Catholic definitions.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Without the Holy Spirit what individual, be he Catholic or Protestant or Other, could ever approach more closely to God?
Since we differ on what we understand His Church to be our understanding of necessity is different. Is one of us right or wrong? God is right and when He looks at the individual heart He decides where the individual stands with Him. This is without regard to any church affiliation or lack thereof.

The answer lies in the fact that Jesus gave complete Authority to ONE Church - not tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering groups that teach different doctrines yet all claim to have the "truth."
This is man made confusion and He is not the God of confusion.

Where is earth other than in the heart of each one called a man? Where should heaven be to please God other that within the heart of each one called a man? Methinks you are looking in the wrong place, but don't worry about it. God always knows where to look in each of us.

And MEthinks you are trying to be too philosophical.
Heaven is not "within" us. It is another place, to which Jesus went to prepare a place for us (John 14:2-3).

Jesus didn't ascend to you - He ascended into Heaven.

No the Canon is not important. What God writes in the heart of a believer is what is important to that believer. That is what will make him more and more like Jesus as he grows. If we eat His flesh and the Holy Spirit brings it to Life within us that is important. What is written in a book, even the Bible is not important at all if no one ever consumes [reads or hears] it and even if he does consume it, it is still not important if it is never quickened in him by the Holy Spirit.

And "eating His Flesh" is an actual, physical occurrence - not reading or knowing Scripture (John 6:22-68).

Anyway - to say that the Canon of Scripture that was revealed by the Holy Spirit is "not important" is tantamount to saying that what God ordains does NOT matter.

My friend, I am no Protestant, not in the sense in which you use the word. I was not even born to my natural mother when Martin Luther and others protested and finally separated from the RCC.

God has always had the truth available to anyone who was really hungry and thirsty for His righteousness:

"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." Matt 5:6

Do you suppose that God was limited in His ability to fulfill the promise of that verse because a person could not read or did not have a book from which to read it? Why would you so limit God?

The Bible is a good resource, but without the Holy Spirit, what advantage does it have over a good set of encyclopedias and a dictionary?

If the Bible is important to anyone, the credit for it does not belongs to any man, but God who inspired its writing and preserved it for those who would have access to it and use it according to His Will rather than their own

I pretty much agree with you about Scripture - with ONE caveat: Jesus left us His Church to teach the world with the help of the Holy Spirit (John 16:12-15) - not the individual and not a Book.

The Church doesn't take the "credit" for the Scriptures. It recognizes that it was guided by the Holy Spirit to declare what was Scripture and what wasn't.

So, I ask you again - why would YOU or any other non-Catholic adhere to a canon of Scripture declared by the Catholic Church? I would definitely NOT adhere to a Protestant Canon because only ONE Church has the God-given Authority.[/QUOTE]

 

[BreadOfLife]

well, got a v linking them?

Absolutely:

John 1:14
And the Word became flesh
and made his dwelling among us,
and we saw his glory,
the glory as of the Father’s only Son,
full of grace and truth.

 

[bbyrd009]

Absolutely:

John 1:14
And the Word became flesh
and made his dwelling among us,
and we saw his glory,
the glory as of the Father’s only Son,
full of grace and truth.

so, you're gonna deliberately misunderstand in order to force your perspective then, ok.

 

[amadeus]

The answer lies in the fact that Jesus gave complete Authority to ONE Church - not tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering groups that teach different doctrines yet all claim to have the "truth."
This is man made confusion and He is not the God of confusion.

I agree that there should not be tens of thousands, but only One, but while I believe that there is One such, it consists of all who follow Jesus and while some of them are Catholic, other are not. The truth is Jesus, but who knows all of Jesus and that which He is? The believer who is growing is learning more and more all of the time while he still has time.

And MEthinks you are trying to be too philosophical.
Heaven is not "within" us. It is another place, to which Jesus went to prepare a place for us (John 14:2-3).

"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21

Where was it that Jesus went that the disciples at that time could not immediately follow? He went to prepare a place where He could lay his head:

"And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Matt 8:20

Until we were prepared God could not reside within man. Man was corrupted and uninhabitable, but Jesus prayed that that be changed:

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." John 17:20-23

Jesus didn't ascend

to you - He ascended into Heaven.

Jesus was already in one heaven or the other at all times [with one possible exception]:

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13

Jesus came down from the Father to our hell but remained always in a heavenly place because of who and what he was. Since the day of Pentecost [Acts 2] others have come into that same heavenly place which Jesus prepared within them. He prepared a place within them where He could lay his head.

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:? Col 1:27

And "eating His Flesh" is an actual, physical occurrence - not reading or knowing Scripture (John 6:22-68).

If simply reading the scripture were the answer, I am sure that I have surpassed many for I have read all of the Bible a dozens of times in three languages. Knowing the scripture is quite another thing, for I really believe that no one can know the scripture as God wants it to be known except by the Holy Ghost. He made much known to me but not all. He is still working in me.

Who does have it all? Who has never quenched the Holy Ghost working in him? Who has a place within where Jesus can lay his head?

Anyway - to say that the Canon of Scripture that was revealed by the Holy Spirit is "not important" is tantamount to saying that what God ordains does NOT matter.

Perhaps I misspoke in saying it is "not important". My point was that compared to the Living Word written in our hearts the dead Book is unimportant. The scripture has the potential, but it needs to be quickened by the Holy Spirit to be Alive and that happens in a man as I see it. That happens when a man has a resting place within his self for Jesus. He now has a place to lay His head.

I pretty much agree with you about Scripture - with ONE caveat: Jesus left us His Church to teach the world with the help of the Holy Spirit (John 16:12-15) - not the individual and not a Book.

The Church is people, so Jesus did not leave it. He left the possibilities of a Church where there was none. The Church is His Body and His Body could not exist until someone could qualify to be a part of it. That was first possible when the Holy Ghost was poured out on the day of Pentecost in as per the Book of Acts. From that point, people began to get qualified to be part of His Body. That continues now.

The Church doesn't take the "credit" for the Scriptures. It recognizes that it was guided by the Holy Spirit to declare what was Scripture and what wasn't.

I agree in a measure. We would differ in what we each would say the Church is. The individuals who are or could be be parts of the Body have the Holy Ghost working in them as as allowed to cleanse and build that part so that will properly fit with the rest:

"From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. Eph 4:16

So, I ask you again - why would YOU or any other non-Catholic adhere to a canon of Scripture declared by the Catholic Church? I would definitely NOT adhere to a Protestant Canon because only ONE Church has the God-given Authority.

I believe that what I have said already answers your question for me.

 

[aspen]

 

[BreadOfLife]

so, you're gonna deliberately misunderstand in order to force your perspective then, ok.

Another non-answer.
I'm not surprised.

Now - let's hear your position on that verse . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

And never accept lies as the truth . . .

 

[bbyrd009]

Another non-answer.
I'm not surprised.

Now - let's hear your position on that verse . . .

you already know the disagreement is @ "Bible = Word" BoL, but i hope you don't think i condemn you for believing that It is or anything; as far as i am concerned that is a great belief for you to hold. At some point you might come to see that Word cannot be re-written to suit a reader, and still be Word, but i understand that that is a big mountain to climb to someone who has been raised from the cradle to accept Bible as Word, ok.

Many of our other doctrines hinge on this, and if one needs those other doctrines to be true, the truth will of course not be seen.

And any time one is ready, the Book will clarify this--the word "Bible" is not in the Bible, so you gotta Bible-search "Book" for refs to the Bible, and then it becomes a simple matter to search "Book Word," "Book Christ" "Book Law" etc to get the relationship down, and who knows, you might even find that verse that you have yet to quote connecting "Book" and "Word," and i for one wish you the best of luck there, it's an illuminating study, i even have it all searched out with all of the search links on a post somewhere, if anyone cares, better to do it yourself though i guess.

 

[bbyrd009]

should be pretty obvious that if you tell someone that i gave you my word, their understanding is that we talked either on the phone or in person and you heard me say...My Word, whatever it was. And any other mode of transmission is unacceptable to terming it "my word."

and you can't take God's Word and change a Commandment to suit yourself, and then change "don't seethe a kid in milk" to "don't put milk and meat on the same shelf" and then keep calling it God's Word. Or you can, but that makes you a raging hypocrite.

 

[BreadOfLife]

View attachment 1256

you already know the disagreement is @ "Bible = Word" BoL, but i hope you don't think i condemn you for believing that It is or anything; as far as i am concerned that is a great belief for you to hold. At some point you might come to see that Word cannot be re-written to suit a reader, and still be Word, but i understand that that is a big mountain to climb to someone who has been raised from the cradle to accept Bible as Word, ok.

Many of our other doctrines hinge on this, and if one needs those other doctrines to be true, the truth will of course not be seen.

And any time one is ready, the Book will clarify this--the word "Bible" is not in the Bible, so you gotta Bible-search "Book" for refs to the Bible, and then it becomes a simple matter to search "Book Word," "Book Christ" "Book Law" etc to get the relationship down, and who knows, you might even find that verse that you have yet to quote connecting "Book" and "Word," and i for one wish you the best of luck there, it's an illuminating study, i even have it all searched out with all of the search links on a post somewhere, if anyone cares, better to do it yourself though i guess.

I never said that the Bible was Jesus or vice versa.
The Bible is the written Word of God - but not the entire Word of God.

However, Jesus IS the Word of God as the written Word clearly states (John 1:1).

 

[BreadOfLife]

I agree that there should not be tens of thousands, but only One, but while I believe that there is One such, it consists of all who follow Jesus and while some of them are Catholic, other are not. The truth is Jesus, but who knows all of Jesus and that which He is? The believer who is growing is learning more and more all of the time while he still has time.

Sorry – but the tens of thousands of Protestant sects are not only NOT united – they teach different doctrines. Some are as different as night and day:

- Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
- Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
- Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
- Some believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.
- Some believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while others do not.
- Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
- Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
- Some believe that some were predestined for hell, while others do not.
- Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
- Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.
- Most believe in contraception, while others do not – and the list goes on.

This is not the ONE Church Jesus prayed for at the Last Supper (John 17:20-23).
It’s nothing but man made confusion.

"Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:21

Where was it that Jesus went that the disciples at that time could not immediately follow? He went to prepare a place where He could lay his head:

"And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Matt 8:20

Until we were prepared God could not reside within man. Man was corrupted and uninhabitable, but Jesus prayed that that be changed:

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." John 17:20-23

Jesus was already in one heaven or the other at all times [with one possible exception]:

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13

Jesus came down from the Father to our hell but remained always in a heavenly place because of who and what he was. Since the day of Pentecost [Acts 2] others have come into that same heavenly place which Jesus prepared within them. He prepared a place within them where He could lay his head.

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:? Col 1:27

And again, it’s painfully evident that you don’t understand the Scriptures.

First of all – John 3:13 never says that He is in Heaven. This is something that appears to have been added later. Most translations don’t include that last phrase “which is in heaven.” WHY??
Because it’s NOT in most Greek manuscripts.

Secondly – Rev. 21:27 states explicitly that NOTHING unclean impure can enter Heaven.
I don’t know about YOU – but I’ve never met ONE single person who was perfectly pure and clean.

If simply reading the scripture were the answer, I am sure that I have surpassed many for I have read all of the Bible a dozens of times in three languages. Knowing the scripture is quite another thing, for I really believe that no one can know the scripture as God wants it to be known except by the Holy Ghost. He made much known to me but not all. He is still working in me.

Who does have it all? Who has never quenched the Holy Ghost working in him? Who has a place within where Jesus can lay his head?

That’s a non-answer.

You implied that “eathing” His flesh had to do with “consuming” the Scriptures. It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with the Eucharist.

Jesus didn‘t say, “My WORD is true food and my WORD is true drink.”
He said, “For my FLESH is true food, and my BLOOD is true drink.

Just as the Jews were to eat the Paschal Lamb – Christians are to eat the Lamb of God.

The Early Christians were butchered for this belief. The Romans referred to them as “cannibals” for their ardent belief in the Eucharist.

The Church is people, so Jesus did not leave it. He left the possibilities of a Church where there was none. The Church is His Body and His Body could not exist until someone could qualify to be a part of it. That was first possible when the Holy Ghost was poured out on the day of Pentecost in as per the Book of Acts. From that point, people began to get qualified to be part of His Body. That continues now.

Wrong.

Matt. 16:18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

I believe that what I have said already answers your question for me.

Actually, it doesn’t – but I’m getting use to your verbose dodges. .
But then, I’ve never met the Protestant who is courageous enough to answer this question directly . . .

 

[bbyrd009]

The Bible is the written Word of God

fine, just supply the v then, we'll wait

actually nevermind, if you want to insist that Word can be written, then that works for me.

 

[BreadOfLife]

fine, just supply the v then, we'll wait

actually nevermind, if you want to insist that Word can be written, then that works for me.

No - 1 Tim. 3:16 explicitly states that Scripture is GOD-BREATHED (Theopneustos).
Now - refute that . . .

 

[bbyrd009]

No - 1 Tim. 3:16 explicitly states that Scripture is GOD-BREATHED (Theopneustos).
Now - refute that . . .

i already have, and this is about the point a couple months ago where we left off, if i remember right, when it became obvious you were not going to prevail then, either. Scripture was God-Breathed, yes. And the actions of scribes are amply recorded in Scripture, for you to ignore in Living Color, if you like. And if Mr. Theopneustos reaches any other conclusions about Word other than the ones that even an 8 year old can understand, and you prefer them, then go with them, BoL

why bother Bible searching, if you already know, right?

 

[BreadOfLife]

i already have, and this is about the point a couple months ago where we left off, if i remember right, when it became obvious you were not going to prevail then, either. Scripture was God-Breathed, yes. And the actions of scribes are amply recorded in Scripture, for you to ignore in Living Color, if you like. And if Mr. Theopneustos reaches any other conclusions about Word other than the ones that even an 8 year old can understand, and you prefer them, then go with them, BoL

why bother Bible searching, if you already know, right?

Another verbose non-answer.
What a surprise, coming from you . . .

Look - if you can't refute the verses I have presented - just say so and move on.
There is no shame in being corrected . . .

 

[bbyrd009]

Another verbose non-answer.
What a surprise, coming from you . . .

Look - if you can't refute the verses I have presented - just say so and move on.
There is no shame in being corrected . . .

what i really don't get here is why someone whose faith is so at odds with Scripture at so many points would even want Scripture to be Word, i mean that is exactly what will be used against you.

You confess in dark closets to a guy you call father, and practice penance for sins, and pray to Mary, and you want the Bible to be Word? Are you sure?

Don't you see why you cannot find "Book = Word" in Scripture, and all you can find is "Book was God~Breathed?"

 

[aspen]

Sorry – but the tens of thousands of Protestant sects are not only NOT united – they teach different doctrines. Some are as different as night and day:

- Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
- Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
- Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
- Some believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.
- Some believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while others do not.
- Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
- Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
- Some believe that some were predestined for hell, while others do not.
- Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
- Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.
- Most believe in contraception, while others do not – and the list goes on.

This is not the ONE Church Jesus prayed for at the Last Supper (John 17:20-23).
It’s nothing but man made confusion.

And again, it’s painfully evident that you don’t understand the Scriptures.

First of all – John 3:13 never says that He is in Heaven. This is something that appears to have been added later. Most translations don’t include that last phrase “which is in heaven.” WHY??
Because it’s NOT in most Greek manuscripts.

Secondly – Rev. 21:27 states explicitly that NOTHING unclean impure can enter Heaven.
I don’t know about YOU – but I’ve never met ONE single person who was perfectly pure and clean.


That’s a non-answer.

You implied that “eathing” His flesh had to do with “consuming” the Scriptures. It has nothing to do with that. It has to do with the Eucharist.

Jesus didn‘t say, “My WORD is true food and my WORD is true drink.”
He said, “For my FLESH is true food, and my BLOOD is true drink.

Just as the Jews were to eat the Paschal Lamb – Christians are to eat the Lamb of God.

The Early Christians were butchered for this belief. The Romans referred to them as “cannibals” for their ardent belief in the Eucharist.

Wrong.

Matt. 16:18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

Actually, it doesn’t – but I’m getting use to your verbose dodges. .
But then, I’ve never met the Protestant who is courageous enough to answer this question directly . . .

You are obviously classifying any doctrine you can think of outside the Catholic Church and calling it Protestant. Intellectually dishonest

Do you really believe that cherry picking through almost 10,000 of my posts and constructing a strawman is convincing anyone, please.....