Why water into wine?

[BreadOfLife]

It is sad BoL, you are so busy fighting fellow Christians on this board and there is a person posting all over the board who's doctrine is unapologeticly anticatholic.......yet, you haven't posted any responses to Marakopa that I have seen

I certainly have posted responses to Marakopa.
Don't know what you're reading.

 

[BreadOfLife]

My point is that because the Risen Jesus Christ addressed the churches individually show that the only authority over them is God and Jesus Christ. Not Rome and not the pope. You will note that in (Acts 13:1-4) God was already working through the chain of command and protocol. "As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them."

And the chain of command and protocol are followed concerning these 7 churches of Asia. (Rev. 1:1) "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

See how perfect the order? God, Jesus Christ, the angel of God, John, His servants.

Thus you see God recognizes the authority of command. And Rome and the pope are not involved. If Rome or the pope has such authority as you say, they would most certainly be mentioned. But they are not.

Stranger

Hogwash.
First of all - the prophets and teachers spoken of in Acts 13:1-4 were sent out by the Apostles.

Remember what the Apostles wrote at the Council of Jerusalem:
Acts 15:23-24
The apostles and elders, your brothers,
To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:
Greetings.
We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.

And Paul states:
2 Tim. 2:2
"What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also".

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, EITHER BY an ORAL STATEMENT - OR BY by a letter from us."

Bottom line is that just because the churches in Asia were being scolded or commended by God - doesn't mean that the Pope needed to be mentioned. They were being scolded or commended on their OWN faults or merits.

Your argument is impotent . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes you are correct that was an error on my part, he was a gentile. Nevertheless my explanation still stands. Peter was called to the Jews not the Gentiles.
Cornelius being an EXCEPTION (as you are so familiar with.)
NOTICE, I am not afraid to admit to my mistakes.

I thought you were against Biblical exceptions.
You certainly are when they apply to Catholic doctrines like Baptismal Regeneration and the Thief on the cross . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Sorry, but the Holy Spirit saw fit to have this translated more precisely in Greek to Petros G4074 and Petra G4073. No amount of bold and larger font will change that.
Petra being the larger rock Jesus was pointing to one of 2 possible options. 1) He would built His church on Peters confession of faith or 2) He would built the church on Himself (the Rock of our salvation) Dan. 2:34, Mat. 7:24. Either way it is not Peter.
You see one rule of interpretation is that you DO NOT make the Word of God conform to your religion and tradition, it's the other way around. Hope this is helpful.

And this shows your abject ignorance of linguistics.

Simon could HARDLY be called "Petra", which is a feminine noun. It would be akin to calling him "Patricia". or some other female name.
Jesus didn't make a distinction. He said , "YOU (Simon) are Kepha, and on this Kepha, I will build my church."

Jesus didn't leave us with a Book to translate itself. He left us with a CHURCH as the supreme earthly Authority to teach and spread the Gospel.

 

[Stranger]

Hogwash.
First of all - the prophets and teachers spoken of in Acts 13:1-4 were sent out by the Apostles.

Remember what the Apostles wrote at the Council of Jerusalem:
Acts 15:23-24
The apostles and elders, your brothers,
To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:
Greetings.
We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.

And Paul states:
2 Tim. 2:2
"What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also".

2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, EITHER BY an ORAL STATEMENT - OR BY by a letter from us."

Bottom line is that just because the churches in Asia were being scolded or commended by God - doesn't mean that the Pope needed to be mentioned. They were being scolded or commended on their OWN faults or merits.

Your argument is impotent . . .

Hey, if the pope or the Roman church doesn't need to be mentioned, then they don't need to be mentioned. And the individual churches don't need to mention them or recognize them.

Bottom line...Rome has no authority except over it's own local Roman church. The risen Christ didn't recognize it. Why should any one else?

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

Hey, if the pope or the Roman church doesn't need to be mentioned, then they don't need to be mentioned. And the individual churches don't need to mention them or recognize them.

Bottom line...Rome has no authority except over it's own local Roman church. The risen Christ didn't recognize it. Why should any one else?

Stranger

That's as stupid as saying that your parents have no authority because your poor report card doesn't mention them . . .

 

[Stranger]

That's as stupid as saying that your parents have no authority because your poor report card doesn't mention them . . .

My parents were required to sign my report card. Why? They were in authority over me. No such signature was required by Christ of the Roman Church. Why? Because they had no authority over the individual churches. Like they wished they had. Like they stole.

Stanger

 

[pia]

As for history - I'm not the one who denies it.
All of YOU deny it. I'm well-aware of the sins of some Catholics in history - but none of YOU want to admit to the sins of Protestants

Well firstly you told me my concordance is wrong, so I have no idea what to say to that, and I certainly can't afford to go buy another one.
As far as what I highlighted, you most certainly have not replied to what I have asked you in the past about your infallible church and history, nor have you obviously read much at all of what I have written yo you, because I do not separate the protestants or any other religious faction from the catholic church. The way I see it, the catholic church was the first established ( as far as anyone knows ) corporate institution of religious beliefs ( other than the old pagan systems ), therefore, since all the other religions came after that, with just a few changes here and there, I see the catholic church as the mother of all the other 'christian' religions which followed.
All I have EVER been on about is the reality of the resurrected Jesus, and for that I cop so much flack from a few on this forum, wonder how Jesus feels about that?
So, one more time.....I do not believe ANY of the religious systems have 100% truth. But HE DOES, so I don't get why people are so adverse to getting to know the real Jesus NOW, instead of only reading what others experienced with Him thousands of years ago.
I call myself a Christian because I found out that Christ is really real and I was baptized at age 36, NOT because I am a protestant.
Anyway reading in my Bible, it seems clear that Jesus is saying that it is on the revelation Peter got from above, which was to be the Rock Jesus builds His church on.
I am rather disappointed that you have gone back to saying those same things I thought we had worked out some weeks ago...

 

[aspen]

My parents were required to sign my report card. Why? They were in authority over me. No such signature was required by Christ of the Roman Church. Why? Because they had no authority over the individual churches. Like they wished they had. Like they stole.

Stanger

Who has authority over you?

 

[Stranger]

Who has authority over you?

God, Jesus Christ, the local church leaders. Who has authority over you?

Stranger

 

[perrero]

Simon could HARDLY be called "Petra", which is a feminine noun. It would be akin to calling him "Patricia". or some other female name.
Jesus didn't make a distinction. He said , "YOU (Simon) are Kepha, and on this Kepha, I will build my church."

So really what you're saying is that it should read, "Peter, you are Peter and on this Peter I will build my Church. Makes a lot of sense. But I expect that from someone steeped in the fog of religious fallacy.

Jesus didn't leave us with a Book to translate itself. He left us with a CHURCH as the supreme earthly Authority to teach and spread the Gospel.

Your church is NOT the supreme earthly Authority to teach and spread the Gospel. We have all been given the great commission. It is the responsibility of every member in the Body to spread the Good news and we can do that without your church.

 

[perrero]

I thought you were against Biblical exceptions.
You certainly are when they apply to Catholic doctrines like Baptismal Regeneration and the Thief on the cross . . .

Hey, let's be fair here, Buddy. If you're going to use exceptions to prove your points then what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

[BreadOfLife]

My parents were required to sign my report card. Why? They were in authority over me. No such signature was required by Christ of the Roman Church. Why? Because they had no authority over the individual churches. Like they wished they had. Like they stole.

Stanger

And, ultimately, the Pope is responsible for what happens to each diocese - but he doesn't need to be mentioned specifically when that parish or diocese is commended or scolded - just like your parents.

Anyway - explain to me how Peter "stole" the promise of Jesus that whatever he ordained on earth would be ordained in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19)??.
How did he "steal" the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19)??
How did He "steal" the request by Jesus to feed His lambs and tend His sheep (John 21:15-19)??
How did he "steal" being told by Jesus that He would pray for him ALONE to strengthen the others and bring them back to faith (Luke 22:31-32)??
How did he "steal" being called "Protos" in the Gospel (Matt. 10:2)??

 

[BreadOfLife]

Hey, let's be fair here, Buddy. If you're going to use exceptions to prove your points then what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

I was merely pointing out the fact that you rejected the exceptions that I brought up only to use exceptions of your own later.
I was pointing out your hypocrisy.

 

[BreadOfLife]

God, Jesus Christ, the local church leaders. Who has authority over you?

Stranger

Same here.
However, there are others like the local, state and federal authorities.

YOU claim to be subject to your church authorities yet you reject the Pope's authority.
What utter hypocrisy . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

So really what you're saying is that it should read, "Peter, you are Peter and on this Peter I will build my Church. Makes a lot of sense. But I expect that from someone steeped in the fog of religious fallacy.

WRONG.
The Apostles' name was SIMON.
Jesus said:
Matt. 16:17-18
Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
And so I say to you, you are KEPHA, and upon this KEPHA I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

Your church is NOT the supreme earthly Authority to teach and spread the Gospel. We have all been given the great commission. It is the responsibility of every member in the Body to spread the Good news and we can do that without your church.

The Church as a whole was given this power - NOT the individual.
Jesus didn't preach this to the crowds but told it to His Disciples.

It is ALL of our responsibility to preach the word of God through our words and the way we live.
NOT all of us are commissioned to Baptize.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well firstly you told me my concordance is wrong, so I have no idea what to say to that, and I certainly can't afford to go buy another one.
As far as what I highlighted, you most certainly have not replied to what I have asked you in the past about your infallible church and history, nor have you obviously read much at all of what I have written yo you, because I do not separate the protestants or any other religious faction from the catholic church. The way I see it, the catholic church was the first established ( as far as anyone knows ) corporate institution of religious beliefs ( other than the old pagan systems ), therefore, since all the other religions came after that, with just a few changes here and there, I see the catholic church as the mother of all the other 'christian' religions which followed.
All I have EVER been on about is the reality of the resurrected Jesus, and for that I cop so much flack from a few on this forum, wonder how Jesus feels about that?
So, one more time.....I do not believe ANY of the religious systems have 100% truth. But HE DOES, so I don't get why people are so adverse to getting to know the real Jesus NOW, instead of only reading what others experienced with Him thousands of years ago.
I call myself a Christian because I found out that Christ is really real and I was baptized at age 36, NOT because I am a protestant.
Anyway reading in my Bible, it seems clear that Jesus is saying that it is on the revelation Peter got from above, which was to be the Rock Jesus builds His church on.
I am rather disappointed that you have gone back to saying those same things I thought we had worked out some weeks ago...

Well - I HAVE answered everything you have asked of me. I have repeatedly asked you to tell me which questions I haven't addressed and you have refused to do so.

As for Jesus OR the Church - there is no such thing.

Jesus equates His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).
The Church is the FULLNESS of Jesus (Eph. 1:22-23).
The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tom. 3:15).

NOT sure why you keep trying to separate the two . . .

 

[Stranger]

And, ultimately, the Pope is responsible for what happens to each diocese - but he doesn't need to be mentioned specifically when that parish or diocese is commended or scolded - just like your parents.

Anyway - explain to me how Peter "stole" the promise of Jesus that whatever he ordained on earth would be ordained in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19)??.
How did he "steal" the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19)??
How did He "steal" the request by Jesus to feed His lambs and tend His sheep (John 21:15-19)??
How did he "steal" being told by Jesus that He would pray for him ALONE to strengthen the others and bring them back to faith (Luke 22:31-32)??
How did he "steal" being called "Protos" in the Gospel (Matt. 10:2)??

Peter didn't steal anything. The Roman Church did.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Same here.
However, there are others like the local, state and federal authorities.

YOU claim to be subject to your church authorities yet you reject the Pope's authority.
What utter hypocrisy . . .

Yes, I reject the popes and Romes authority. Because it was never given them by God over the chruches.

The local church answers to Jesus Christ. That is exactly what the 7 churches of Asia in Revelation show. No pope, no Rome.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

Peter didn't steal anything. The Roman Church did.

Stranger

How so?
Please enlighten me . . .