Why water into wine?

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BreadOfLife

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Yes, I reject the popes and Romes authority. Because it was never given them by God over the chruches.

The local church answers to Jesus Christ. That is exactly what the 7 churches of Asia in Revelation show. No pope, no Rome.

Stranger
Your arguments are always built on YOUR rejection and nothing else.
Why don't you try to actually build a case against the overwhelming Scriptural, linguistic and historical evidence I have presented.

a. Tell me WHY Jesus singled out Peter when He gave him the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19) if did not put him in charge.

b. Tell me WHY Jesus asked Peter and Peter alone to feed His lambs and tend His sheep (John 21:15-19) if did not put him in charge.

c. Tell me WHY Jesus said that He prayed for Peter ALONE to strengthen the others and bring them back to faith (Luke 22:31-32) if did not put him in charge.
d. Tell me WHY Peter called "Protos" in the Gospel (Matt. 10:2) if He was not in charge??

e. Tell me WHY Peter's name occurs first in all lists of apostles (Matt. 10:2; Mk 3:16; Luke 6:14; Acts 1:13) if He was not in charge??

f. Tell me WHY Peter is specified by an angel as the leader and representative of the apostles (Mark 16:7) if He was not in charge??

g. Tell me WHY Peter takes the lead in calling for a replacement for Judas (Acts 1:22) if He was not in charge??

h. Tell me WHY Peter is the first person to speak (and only one recorded) after Pentecost, making him the first Christian to preach the Gospel in the Church (Acts 2:14-36) if He was not in charge??

i. Tell me WHY Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a lame man (Acts 3:6-12) if He was not in charge??

j. Tell me WHY Peter utters the first anathema (Ananias and Sapphira) affirmed by God (Acts 5:2-11) if He was not in charge??

k. Tell me WHY Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead (Acts 9:40) if He was not in charge??

l. Tell me WHY Cornelius is told by an angel to seek out Peter for instruction in Christianity (Acts 10:1-6) if He was not in charge??

m. Tell me WHY Peter's name is mentioned more often than all the other disciples put together if He was not in charge??
His name is mentioned 191 times (162 as Peter or Simon Peter, 23 as Simon and 6 as Cephas). John is the next with only 48 mentions, and Peter is present 50 percent of the time we find John in the Bible.

Simple denials aren't good enough.
Let's see if you can back them up with Scripture . . .
 
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epostle1

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So really what you're saying is that it should read, "Peter, you are Peter and on this Peter I will build my Church. Makes a lot of sense. But I expect that from someone steeped in the fog of religious fallacy.
Because you refuse to accept that Jesus spoke Aramaic, and was later translated into Greek. There are no constructive pronouns in the Aramaic. Jesus refereed to Peter in the Aramaic Cephas in John 1:42, and Paul used the Aramaic "Kepha" or "Cephas" (transliterated from the Aramaic to Greek) 6 times to Greek speaking communities. We don't even need Matthew 16:18
Your church is NOT the supreme earthly Authority to teach and spread the Gospel. We have all been given the great commission. It is the responsibility of every member in the Body to spread the Good news and we can do that without your church.
It is the responsibility of every member in the Body to spread the Good news within each persons capacity, but there is nothing in Scripture that says each individual has the same authority as the Apostles. (and by logical extension, their successors) There is nothing in Matthew 28:16 to remotely suggest that individual believers are represented by the Eleven.
The CC is the true Church, but not the only church with truths. You are too hostile to understand what that implies. Explain how the canon of Scripture was delivered to us without the CC, since you claim you can do without it.
 

Stranger

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How so?
Please enlighten me . . .

Go back and reread. Start on page 49 my post #971. Read all my posts up to this. Rome has no authority over the individual churches. Only in Rome's twisted mind. Rome must twist Scripture or add tradition to make it so.

There is no 'enlightening you'. There is only disagreeing and contending with you.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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Your arguments are always built on YOUR rejection and nothing else.
Why don't you try to actually build a case against the overwhelming Scriptural, linguistic and historical evidence I have presented.

a. Tell me WHY Jesus singled out Peter when He gave him the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19) if did not put him in charge.

b. Tell me WHY Jesus asked Peter and Peter alone to feed His lambs and tend His sheep (John 21:15-19) if did not put him in charge.

c. Tell me WHY Jesus said that He prayed for Peter ALONE to strengthen the others and bring them back to faith (Luke 22:31-32) if did not put him in charge.
d. Tell me WHY Peter called "Protos" in the Gospel (Matt. 10:2) if He was not in charge??

e. Tell me WHY Peter's name occurs first in all lists of apostles (Matt. 10:2; Mk 3:16; Luke 6:14; Acts 1:13) if He was not in charge??

f. Tell me WHY Peter is specified by an angel as the leader and representative of the apostles (Mark 16:7) if He was not in charge??

g. Tell me WHY Peter takes the lead in calling for a replacement for Judas (Acts 1:22) if He was not in charge??

h. Tell me WHY Peter is the first person to speak (and only one recorded) after Pentecost, making him the first Christian to preach the Gospel in the Church (Acts 2:14-36) if He was not in charge??

i. Tell me WHY Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a lame man (Acts 3:6-12) if He was not in charge??

j. Tell me WHY Peter utters the first anathema (Ananias and Sapphira) affirmed by God (Acts 5:2-11) if He was not in charge??

k. Tell me WHY Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead (Acts 9:40) if He was not in charge??

l. Tell me WHY Cornelius is told by an angel to seek out Peter for instruction in Christianity (Acts 10:1-6) if He was not in charge??

m. Tell me WHY Peter's name is mentioned more often than all the other disciples put together if He was not in charge??
His name is mentioned 191 times (162 as Peter or Simon Peter, 23 as Simon and 6 as Cephas). John is the next with only 48 mentions, and Peter is present 50 percent of the time we find John in the Bible.

Simple denials aren't good enough.
Let's see if you can back them up with Scripture . . .


I have no problem with what the Lord did with Peter. I have a problem with what Rome does with Peter.

No Scripture you gave says Peter is the pope of the church at Rome. No Scripture you gave says Rome has primacy over all of the Church of Christ.

Stranger
 

pia

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Well - I HAVE answered everything you have asked of me. I have repeatedly asked you to tell me which questions I haven't addressed and you have refused to do so.

As for Jesus OR the Church - there is no such thing.

Jesus equates His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).
The Church is the FULLNESS of Jesus (Eph. 1:22-23).
The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tom. 3:15).

NOT sure why you keep trying to separate the two . . .
I don't. I separate religious practices and learnedness from HIS Church, which I wrote many many times to you.
I don't get it, why you too keep on and on at this, when we had found one point to stand together on, and now you seem to want to start all that off again.
BOL, you are indeed a very learned person and I have admitted many a time, that I don't know the Bible as you do, catholic or otherwise, but you seem to want to browbeat anyone, who will not agree with you that the catholic version of the Bible is the only true one....What an effective Body the Lord would have, if that was the case.
I don't want to start over with you again.
According to Him, His Church is made up of those who believe ( many individuals being knitted together by Truth IN HIM ), if you disagree I suggest you take it up with Him....This WAS something He told me, so I will certainly not doubt Him.
There's an infinity of things I don't know in regard to our Father, Jesus and His Holy Spirit. I had hoped to meet more than the few here, who could have added their revelations to the ones I have been blessed enough to receive, so I could learn more.
Please remember BOL ......." Blessed are the peacemakers."
 

perrero

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Your church is NOT the supreme earthly Authority to teach and spread the Gospel. We have all been given the great commission. It is the responsibility of every member in the Body to spread the Good news and we can do that without your church.

WRONG.
The Apostles' name was SIMON.
Jesus said:

Matt. 16:17-18
Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
And so I say to you, you are KEPHA, and upon this KEPHA I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

It not about the name of Peter. Whether it's Peter, Simon or Simon Barjonah or Waldo, it's about the ROCK who is Jesus. The Rock of our faith who is bigger, greater, and infinitely more powerful and capable to build His church (THE BODY OF CHRIST) beyond what Peter could even fathom. This is why Peter is compared to PETROS (Greek G4074 a lesser rock) and Jesus compared to PETRA (Greek G4073 a larger Rock) Jesus Himself.It is not about Gender, it is about strength, power, authority and who can deliver. AND Jesus is the only one who can deliver. Faith in Him, not Peter, not the C church will build His true church, which is the Body of which He is the Head.

Matt. 16:17-18
Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
And so I say to you, you are PETROS, and upon this PETRA I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.


If you stop substituting the words Petros and Petra for Kepha you just might see the truth. But then it won't fit with your religion. I guess sometimes you have to make a choice.
 

perrero

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I was merely pointing out the fact that you rejected the exceptions that I brought up only to use exceptions of your own later.
I was pointing out your hypocrisy.
No I was just playing with you. Showing how it is so easy to call something an exception when it's convenient in order to save face with your wrong theology.
In reality Cornelius was not an exception. It was just time for Peter to realize that the Gospel was also for the Gentiles. And what better way than in Acts 10. That doesn't change the fact that Peter was called to the Jews (the circumcised not the Gentiles) Paul was called to the gentiles.

Galatians 2:6-8
But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it makes no matter to me: God accepts no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me (Paul), as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;


(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)


Now I realize how these verses are hard to swallow since they clearly show that Peter was NOT called to the Gentiles and was part of the apostleship of the circumcision. Obviously, a fly in the ointment of your Pope theology. I'm quite interested on how you will twist this to support your religious belief. Keep in mind that it is not the Word that should submit to your religion and tradition but that it should be the other way around.
 

perrero

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Because you refuse to accept that Jesus spoke Aramaic, and was later translated into Greek. There are no constructive pronouns in the Aramaic. Jesus refereed to Peter in the Aramaic Cephas in John 1:42, and Paul used the Aramaic "Kepha" or "Cephas" (transliterated from the Aramaic to Greek) 6 times to Greek speaking communities. We don't even need Matthew 16:18

Whether Jesus spoke in Aramaic or not, doesn't change the fact that the Holy Spirit chose the Greek language to bring forth His Eternal Word. The Greek language being a much more precise language. And so I refer you to my post #1126 and rest my case.


It is the responsibility of every member in the Body to spread the Good news within each persons capacity, but there is nothing in Scripture that says each individual has the same authority as the Apostles. (and by logical extension, their successors) There is nothing in Matthew 28:16 to remotely suggest that individual believers are represented by the Eleven.
The CC is the true Church, but not the only church with truths. You are too hostile to understand what that implies. Explain how the canon of Scripture was delivered to us without the CC, since you claim you can do without it.

EPH. 1:19-23 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fullness of him that fills all in all.
Here we see Jesus enthroned in heaven and the Father's right hand in all authority and power.

EPH. 2:4-6
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Here we see all believers raised into high places with Him having that same authority.


Authority Pic.jpg
 

epostle1

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It not about the name of Peter. Whether it's Peter, Simon or Simon Barjonah or Waldo, it's about the ROCK who is Jesus. The Rock of our faith who is bigger, greater, and infinitely more powerful and capable to build His church (THE BODY OF CHRIST) beyond what Peter could even fathom. This is why Peter is compared to PETROS (Greek G4074 a lesser rock) and Jesus compared to PETRA (Greek G4073 a larger Rock) Jesus Himself.It is not about Gender, it is about strength, power, authority and who can deliver. AND Jesus is the only one who can deliver. Faith in Him, not Peter, not the C church will build His true church, which is the Body of which He is the Head.

Matt. 16:17-18
Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
And so I say to you, you are PETROS, and upon this PETRA I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.


If you stop substituting the words Petros and Petra for Kepha you just might see the truth. But then it won't fit with your religion. I guess sometimes you have to make a choice.
But as the passions of the Reformation era have cooled, and Protestant scholars have taken a more dispassionate look at this text, they have come to agree more and more that Jesus was referring to Peter himself as the rock. Of course, they disagree with the Catholic interpretation of what this means, but many now agree that the Catholic explanation of the grammar of the text is correct.

W.F. Albright (Protestant) and C.S. Mann
“[Peter] is not a name, but an appellation and a play on words. There is no evidence of Peter or Kephas as a name before Christian times….Peter as Rock will be the foundation of the future community. Jesus, not quoting the Old Testament, here uses Aramaic, not Hebrew, and so uses the only Aramaic word that would serve his purpose. In view of the background of v. 19…one must dismiss as confessional interpretation any attempt to see this rock as meaning the faith, or the messianic confession, of Peter. To deny the pre-eminent position of Peter among the disciples or in the early Christian community is a denial of the evidence…The interest in Peter’s failures and vacillations does not detract from this pre-eminence; rather, it emphasizes it. Had Peter been a lesser figure his behavior would have been of far less consequence.”
(The Anchor Bible; Matthew [Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday & Co., 1971], 195)

Albert Barnes (Nineteenth-Century Presbyterian)
"The meaning of this phrase may be thus expressed: ‘Thou, in saying that I am the Son of God, hast called me by a name expressive of my true character. I, also, have given to thee a name expressive of your character. I have called you Peter, a rock. . . . I see that you are worthy of the name and will be a distinguished support of my religion"
[Barnes’ Notes on the New Testament, 170].

John Broadus (Nineteenth-Century Calvinistic Baptist)
"As Peter means rock, the natural interpretation is that ‘upon this rock’ means upon thee. . . . It is an even more far-fetched and harsh play upon words if we understand the rock to be Christ and a very feeble and almost unmeaning play upon words if the rock is Peter’s confession" [Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, 356].

Craig L. Blomberg (Baptist)
"The expression ‘this rock’ almost certainly refers to Peter, following immediately after his name, just as the words following ‘the Christ’ in verse 16 applied to Jesus. The play on words in the Greek between Peter’s name (Petros) and the word ‘rock’ (petra) makes sense only if Peter is the Rock and if Jesus is about to explain the significance of this identification" [New American Commentary: Matthew, 22:252].

J. Knox Chamblin (Contemporary Presbyterian)
"By the words ‘this rock’ Jesus means not himself, nor his teaching, nor God the Father, nor Peter’s confession, but Peter himself. The phrase is immediately preceded by a direct and emphatic reference to Peter. As Jesus identifies himself as the builder, the rock on which he builds is most naturally understood as someone (or something) other than Jesus himself"
["Matthew" in Evangelical Commentary on the Bible, 742].

R.T. France (Anglican)
“Jesus now sums up Peter's significance in a name, Peter . . . It describes not so much Peter's character (he did not prove to be 'rock-like' in terms of stability or reliability), but his function, as the foundation-stone of Jesus' church. The feminine word for 'rock', 'petra', is necessarily changed to the masculine 'petros' (stone) to give a man's name, but the word-play is unmistakable (and in Aramaic would be even more so, as the same form 'kepha' would occur in both places). It is only Protestant overreaction to the Catholic claim . . . that what is here said of Peter applies also to the later bishops of Rome, that has led some to claim that the 'rock' here is not Peter at all but the faith which he has just confessed. "The word-play, and the whole structure of the passage, demands that this verse is every bit as much Jesus’ declaration about Peter as verse 16 was Peter’s declaration about Jesus. Of course it is on the basis of Peter’s confession that Jesus declares his role as the Church’s foundation, but it is to Peter, not his confession, that the rock metaphor is applied. . . Peter is to be the foundation-stone of Jesus' new community . . . which will last forever.”
(Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, [Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1985], vol. 1: Matthew, 254, 256)

William Hendriksen (Reformed Christian Church, Professor of New Testament Literature at Calvin Seminary)
“The meaning is, “You are Peter, that is Rock, and upon this rock, that is, on you, Peter I will build my church.” Our Lord, speaking Aramaic, probably said, “And I say to you, you are Kepha, and on this kepha I will build my church.” Jesus, then, is promising Peter that he is going to build his church on him! I accept this view.”
(New Testament Commentary: Exposition of the Gospel According to Matthew [Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1973], page 647JPK page 14]

Donald Hagner (Contemporary Evangelical)
"The frequent attempts that have been made, largely in the past, to deny [that Peter is the rock] in favor of the view that the confession itself is the rock . . . seem to be largely motivated by Protestant prejudice against a passage that is used by the Catholics to justify the papacy"
(Word Biblical Commentary 33b:470).

David Hill (Presbyterian)
“It is on Peter himself, the confessor of his Messiahship, that Jesus will build the Church…Attempts to interpret the ‘rock’ as something other than Peter in person (e.g., his faith, the truth revealed to him) are due to Protestant bias, and introduce to the statement a degree of subtlety which is highly unlikely.” (The Gospel of Matthew, New Century Bible Commentary [Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1972], 261)

Herman Ridderbos (Contemporary Dutch Reformed)
"It is well known that the Greek word petra translated ‘rock’ here is different from the proper name Peter. The slight difference between them has no special importance, however. The most likely explanation for the change from petros (‘Peter’) to petra is that petra was the normal word for ‘rock.’ . . . There is no good reason to think that Jesus switched from petros to petra to show that he was not speaking of the man Peter but of his confession as the foundation of the Church. The words ‘on this rock [petra]’ indeed refer to Peter"
[Bible Student’s Commentary: Matthew, 303].

All these quotes are from Protestant scholars who wrote reference manuals, so you can't accuse me of doctrinal bias. Unfortunately, it is the nature of Protestantism to protest against itself, in an endless cycle of re-inventing the wheel.

For the Protestant Reformers to rationalize breaking away from what was universally acknowledged in their culture as the Christian Church, it was necessary for them to deny the Catholic Church’s authority. To maintain their positions, they were forced to portray it as a kind of "anti-Church" that was unjustly claiming the prerogatives of Christ’s true (but invisible) Church.

Their chief target was, of course, the pope. To justify breaking away from the successor of Peter, they had to undercut the Petrine office itself. They were forced to deny the plain reading of Matthew 16:18—that Jesus made Peter the rock on which he would build his Church.

More recent Protestants have been able to back away from the position that early Protestants felt forced to make and have been able to admit that Peter is, indeed, the rock. It remains to be seen whether they will start drawing the necessary inferences from this fact.





 

epostle1

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Donald A. Carson (Baptist)
“On the basis of the distinction between 'petros' . . . and 'petra' . . . , many have attempted to avoid identifying Peter as the rock on which Jesus builds his church. Peter is a mere 'stone,' it is alleged; but Jesus himself is the 'rock' . . . Others adopt some other distinction . . . Yet if it were not for Protestant reactions against extremes of Catholic interpretation, it is doubtful whether many would have taken 'rock' to be anything or anyone other than Peter . . . The Greek makes the distinction between 'petros' and 'petra' simply because it is trying to preserve the pun, and in Greek the feminine 'petra' could not very well serve as a masculine name . . . Had Matthew wanted to say no more than that Peter was a stone in contrast with Jesus the Rock, the more common word would have been 'lithos' ('stone' of almost any size). Then there would have been no pun - and that is just the point! . . . In this passage Jesus is the builder of the church and it would be a strange mixture of metaphors that also sees him within the same clauses as its foundation . . .”
(Expositor's Bible Commentary, [Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1984], vol. 8: Matthew, Mark, Luke (Matthew: D.A. Carson), 368)
 

BreadOfLife

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Go back and reread. Start on page 49 my post #971. Read all my posts up to this. Rome has no authority over the individual churches. Only in Rome's twisted mind. Rome must twist Scripture or add tradition to make it so.

There is no 'enlightening you'. There is only disagreeing and contending with you.

Stranger
Not good enough. YOU stated:
"Peter didn't steal anything. The Roman Church did. "

This is nothing but YOUR opinion.
Enlighten me with some "facts" about how the Catholic Church "stole" authority.
 

BreadOfLife

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I have no problem with what the Lord did with Peter. I have a problem with what Rome does with Peter.

No Scripture you gave says Peter is the pope of the church at Rome. No Scripture you gave says Rome has primacy over all of the Church of Christ.

Stranger
Impotent denials won't work anymore, Stranger.
I want you to address the facts I have presented.

Your pathetic little denials are CRUSHED by the overwhelming Biblical evidence for Peter's Primacy.
Let's see you present some actual Scriptural, linguistic or historical evidence instead of your usual whining . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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I don't. I separate religious practices and learnedness from HIS Church, which I wrote many many times to you.
I don't get it, why you too keep on and on at this, when we had found one point to stand together on, and now you seem to want to start all that off again.
BOL, you are indeed a very learned person and I have admitted many a time, that I don't know the Bible as you do, catholic or otherwise, but you seem to want to browbeat anyone, who will not agree with you that the catholic version of the Bible is the only true one....What an effective Body the Lord would have, if that was the case.
I don't want to start over with you again.
According to Him, His Church is made up of those who believe ( many individuals being knitted together by Truth IN HIM ), if you disagree I suggest you take it up with Him....This WAS something He told me, so I will certainly not doubt Him.
There's an infinity of things I don't know in regard to our Father, Jesus and His Holy Spirit. I had hoped to meet more than the few here, who could have added their revelations to the ones I have been blessed enough to receive, so I could learn more.
Please remember BOL ......." Blessed are the peacemakers."
I'm not trying to fight with you, Pia.
I'm trying to get to the bottom of some of your statements.

You just said: "According to Him, His Church is made up of those who believe "
Can you show me where the Bible makes this claim??

James 2:19 sates that even the DEMONS believe in God and and tremble.
Are THEY part of the Church?

Also - you keep pitting the Church against Jesus - Scripture against Jesus.
Jesus IS the Word.
The Church IS Jesus on earth.
Jesus equates Himself with His Church - therefore, it is wrong of you do do this.
 

BreadOfLife

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It not about the name of Peter. Whether it's Peter, Simon or Simon Barjonah or Waldo, it's about the ROCK who is Jesus. The Rock of our faith who is bigger, greater, and infinitely more powerful and capable to build His church (THE BODY OF CHRIST) beyond what Peter could even fathom. This is why Peter is compared to PETROS (Greek G4074 a lesser rock) and Jesus compared to PETRA (Greek G4073 a larger Rock) Jesus Himself.It is not about Gender, it is about strength, power, authority and who can deliver. AND Jesus is the only one who can deliver. Faith in Him, not Peter, not the C church will build His true church, which is the Body of which He is the Head.

Matt. 16:17-18
Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
And so I say to you, you are PETROS, and upon this PETRA I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.


If you stop substituting the words Petros and Petra for Kepha you just might see the truth. But then it won't fit with your religion. I guess sometimes you have to make a choice.
And, as I educated you before - Simon could not very well be called "Petra" because he was a MAN.
"Petra" is a feminine noun.

In English, we don't deal much with masculine and feminine nouns - but they DO in Greek, French, Spanish and many other languages.
"Petros" is used for Peter in the Greek because to have called him "Petra" would be like calling him "Patricia" instead of "Peter."

In Isaiah 51:1-2, we see another human being that is called "Kepha" - and that is Abraham.
Jesus is NOT the only "Rock" spoken of in Scripture.
 

BreadOfLife

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No I was just playing with you. Showing how it is so easy to call something an exception when it's convenient in order to save face with your wrong theology.
In reality Cornelius was not an exception. It was just time for Peter to realize that the Gospel was also for the Gentiles. And what better way than in Acts 10. That doesn't change the fact that Peter was called to the Jews (the circumcised not the Gentiles) Paul was called to the gentiles.

Galatians 2:6-8
But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it makes no matter to me: God accepts no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me (Paul), as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;


(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)


Now I realize how these verses are hard to swallow since they clearly show that Peter was NOT called to the Gentiles and was part of the apostleship of the circumcision. Obviously, a fly in the ointment of your Pope theology. I'm quite interested on how you will twist this to support your religious belief. Keep in mind that it is not the Word that should submit to your religion and tradition but that it should be the other way around.
Why would this be a problem??
They ALL had their missions. Some went to Asia, others to India, others to Europe and beyond.

This does not negate Peter's Authority - nor the Authority of his successors.

Tell me something - in the Letter of Clement (AD 90) - why is Clement, the Bishop of Rome called upon to settle the matter in Corinth??
The Apostles John was still alive, so why not go to him?? Why not have the local Bishop tend to the matter?
 

aspen

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God, Jesus Christ, the local church leaders. Who has authority over you?

Stranger

So you do place yourself under some Christian human authority. What makes local church authority more legitimate?

My authority is Christ, my priest, my bishop and the Pope. I think it is important that my local authority is under Christ's authority and the authority of a human being put in place by Christ. When I was Protestant, I attended two churches that ended up splitting because of a lack of accountability.
 

aspen

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And, as I educated you before - Simon could not very well be called "Petra" because he was a MAN.
"Petra" is a feminine noun.

In English, we don't deal much with masculine and feminine nouns - but they DO in Greek, French, Spanish and many other languages.
"Petros" is used for Peter in the Greek because to have called him "Petra" would be like calling him "Patricia" instead of "Peter."

In Isaiah 51:1-2, we see another human being that is called "Kepha" - and that is Abraham.
Jesus is NOT the only "Rock" spoken of in Scripture.

This has always made sense to me, even before I joined the Church. Not sure why it is rarely acknowledged by Protestants. Also, Peters primacy was not in question by the early church when he was alive - 'Ancient Christian Commentary' is a great source for multiple Church fathers commentary on the Old and New Testaments
 

aspen

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My parents were required to sign my report card. Why? They were in authority over me. No such signature was required by Christ of the Roman Church. Why? Because they had no authority over the individual churches. Like they wished they had. Like they stole.

Stanger

Even if you deny Roman authority over the Asian Churches, the Roman Bishop had equal authority with all the other bishops - they were not lone rangers
 

Stranger

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Not good enough. YOU stated:
"Peter didn't steal anything. The Roman Church did. "

This is nothing but YOUR opinion.
Enlighten me with some "facts" about how the Catholic Church "stole" authority.

It is not my opinion. Peter didn't steal anything. I have no problem with Peter.

The Catholic Church didn't steal authority. The Roman Church did.

As I have said, there is nothing in Scripture to give Rome any primacy. It is the Romanists that must make it up. As I said, go back and reread. Just starting the question over again is not going to change the outcome.

Stranger
 
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Stranger

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Impotent denials won't work anymore, Stranger.
I want you to address the facts I have presented.

Your pathetic little denials are CRUSHED by the overwhelming Biblical evidence for Peter's Primacy.
Let's see you present some actual Scriptural, linguistic or historical evidence instead of your usual whining . . .

There is no Biblical evidence for Peter being the pope or the Roman church having authority over all the Church of Christ.

There is no Scripture proving Peter's Primacy.

Stranger
 
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