Calling all Law Keepers.

[Rollo Tamasi]

ya well the Jews were divorced and scattered too, i don't care what belief unsupported by any other witness the Jews believed. If your quote is true then we are sinners from our youth cannot be true, right? We sin from a young age, yes, but not from birth. Newborns do not sin, and it is recognized that you cannot sin without being "accountable," iow knowing the law, knowing the difference between good and evil. What you have dug up here is a reflection on willfullness, which is not the same as sinning.
Yes, and we have established means to test them with Scripture, first and foremost a "witness" another Scripture that supports the meaning, and you are welcome to list yours and i will list mine, if you think it will forward your opinion here, BAM do so, and we will see. The doctrine of Original Sin is crap, and contravenes the Law of sin and death, as many Doctorates of Theology have already argued better than me; even Catholic ones,
"The doctrine of Original Sin is not found in any of the writings of the Old Testament. It is certainly not in chapters one to three of Genesis." Herbert Haag, former president of the Catholic Bible Association of Germany, Is Original Sin in Scripture?

"The concept of Original Sin is alien to Jewish tradition." Elie Weisel

sorry i don't have a...more respected source for that, i guess i need to go find one, but imo perhaps you might quote a respected Jew that disagrees here, and we'll see.

You are a sinner when you sin, and not before.

• It is well known that the Council of Trent insisted on the doctrine of Original Sin; yet the doctrine of Original Blessing is a far more ancient and Biblical doctrine. The Council did not deny this (nor could it); nor did they ever say what Original Sin even means.
• Understand how this doctrine disagrees with so much of the rest of the Bible; the 'age of accountability', etc., and see that you are responsible for your sins, and that it isn't possible for a baby to sin.
• What does God say? "...the LORD said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth." Genesis 8:21
  Which may sound like a condemnation to someone unfamiliar with God's condemnation; but the important part of this verse for us at the moment is the from his youth part. You are not "born a sinner" in the sense that Western Christianity teaches; and it doesn't matter if you are an atheist or have never been in a church, this founding premise has become baked into your assumptions.
• "The harm that has been done to souls during the centuries of Christianity, first by the literal interpretation of the story of Adam, and then by the confusion of this myth, treated as history, with later speculations, principally Augustinian, about Original Sin, will never be adequately told."Paul Ricoeur, The Symbolism of Evil
• This is "dualism", recognized by sages from Eckhart to Daly as "the sin behind all sin." Separation. Subject/object relationships.

How to Recognize the Fallacy of Death Centric Western Christian Models

and it is acknowledged that that is because that is what they hear the most, the first thing they are taught is "no," they are trained into sin iow, and copy their parents' willfullness first, but in ignorance, as they have no concept of law yet. If you suggest that a parent's word is law, well, just try it and see what happens, it fails too.

I hate to use links, but this is the only way to answer you.

Rabbi Soloveitchk on Original Sin

 

[bbyrd009]

I hate to use links, but this is the only way to answer you.

Rabbi Soloveitchk on Original Sin

ha well i'm sure we can both agree that OS isn't going anywhere, regardless.

 

[bbyrd009]

I hate to use links, but this is the only way to answer you.

Rabbi Soloveitchk on Original Sin

and that strikes me as such a good argument that i don't want to refute it, tbh. He makes some good points. Imo we would differ in our definition of exactly what OS is, but i think that is inevitable anyway.

 

[bbyrd009]

I hate to use links, but this is the only way to answer you.

Rabbi Soloveitchk on Original Sin

so from here, we might examine what the doctrine of OS provides, that the Law of sin and death does not.
What is the fruit of this doctrine?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

so from here, we might examine what the doctrine of OS provides, that the Law of sin and death does not.
What is the fruit of this doctrine?

Apples
It's always apples.

 

[amadeus]

ha well amen to that lol. Pray that you have the strength to give Judas the purse, too, well knowing the outcome of that. This is a hard lesson to learn imo. See that if you wanna be a heroin addict, God does not prevent you; He supplies the heroin and even the needle, in a sense.

Give Judas the purse is perhaps like giving a handout of money to person who claims to be a needy person, but actually he is simply too lazy to go out and work for a living. When we cannot know whether the person is really needy or simply lazy and greedy, should we go ahead and help him so as not to possibly miss God?

 

[GodsGrace]

I sometimes use the word (try) in order to keep down confusion.

"Grace through faith that is accompanied by works"
(Yes. We all like Ephesians 2:8-9, but not everyone likes 2:10)[/QUOTE]

It's simply because they don't understand, our works are made perfect the same way we are, through Christ Jesus.

[/QUOTE]"Jesus makes [obedience] possible the same way He makes salvation possible".
(AMEN! He DID, after all, send us the Holy Spirit to be our helper for this very reason --- making it possible)

I just get a bit confused when I hear other believers state that we are not required to obey the law OR that the law has been abolished.[/QUOTE]

Again, it is because they do not understand, it's the condemnation of the law that has been abolished for those who are in Christ. Not the law itself. Christ fulfilled the law, in Him we do also.

Sorry, I have not learned how to multi quote yet. Could someone please explain?[/QUOTE]
Of course the condemnation of the law has been abolished...
We are NOT under the law any longer...
But, yes, I agree with how you explain.

Don't know if anyone has answered you. Just going thru -- re the quoting:

Click on REPLY (bottom right of the post you wish to answer)
The whole statement will be on your post
It'll begin with (QUOTE)
Place curser where you want to end the statement to which you will reply...
Type in... (/QUOTE)
Just type your answer.
Continue this all the way down...

(QUOTE) will BEGIN the segment
(/QUOTE) will END the segment

DO NOT USE PARAGRAPHS!
USE THIS [ ]

(if I used the [ ] you would not have been able to read QUOTE...

It's easy. Try it.

 

[GodsGrace]

This doctrine was brought about by a misunderstanding of Psalms 51:5. David is simply saying he is a child of adultery, in which case the sin is in his mother and father. Ezekiel 18: is clearly teaching the sins of the father (or mother) are not passed on to their child. Not to say they cannot teach their children to sin, that is another matter. Paul, in Romans 5: is using what is called a simile to teach that just as Adam fell, we all fall, that is by disobedience.

Yes this is true.
Jesus confirmed that the parent's sin is not passed on to the children.
God does not impute to us sins of another -- that would not be just.

However, the EFFECTS of that sin have been felt by all, and also the sin nature IS PASSED DOWN to us. The sin nature did not exist before Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Please notice: Paul is saying the law is weak through the flesh, not in itself. The weakness is in us, not the law but praise God in Christ He has overcome our weakness.

I find it very interesting that @ByGrace gave you a like for your above quote since she believes the law has been abolished.

She is a total mystery to me.
Giving likes to persons that do not agree with her.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I find it very interesting that @ByGrace gave you a like for your above quote since she believes the law has been abolished.

She is a total mystery to me.
Giving likes to persons that do not agree with her.

I give you likes and you never agree with me.

 

[GodsGrace]

I give you likes and you never agree with me.

That's only because I'm cute.

Anyway, I agree with you on everything except one doctrine.

 

[GodsGrace]

I hate to use links, but this is the only way to answer you.

Rabbi Soloveitchk on Original Sin

See. We also both hate to use links.
We agree again!!

 

[Helen]

Give Judas the purse is perhaps like giving a handout of money to person who claims to be a needy person, but actually he is simply too lazy to go out and work for a living. When we cannot know whether the person is really needy or simply lazy and greedy, should we go ahead and help him so as not to possibly miss God?

Which proves that because we don't know..we should ask God.
He alone sees the hearts.
But even when we do ask He doesn't always give a clear answer.
Sometime when I have questioned Him about the reliability of the person that's going to receive the money...He has said..." What's that to you...I told you to give it, what he does with it is not your business." lol

 

[bbyrd009]

Apples
It's always apples.

lol, ya, if only. I have asked this question across 10 forums at this point, and i am still waiting for the first good answer.

 

[bbyrd009]

Give Judas the purse is perhaps like giving a handout of money to person who claims to be a needy person, but actually he is simply too lazy to go out and work for a living. When we cannot know whether the person is really needy or simply lazy and greedy, should we go ahead and help him so as not to possibly miss God?

amen, and less seen but even more impactful, what happens when you already know the person's character--as Christ knew Judas when He picked him--and you essentially give them enough rope to "hang themselves?"

 

[Helen]

I find it very interesting that @ByGrace gave you a like for your above quote since she believes the law has been abolished.

She is a total mystery to me.
Giving likes to persons that do not agree with her.

As you have said mentioned before...and before that...

But I actually give likes for the attitude of a person's post as well as the content of a post..even when/if they write back not agreeing,.....
If posting between us is fun and the atmosphere 'warm' I have no problem in 'liking' a post.... in fact I have even done it when the person is totally disagreeing with me, but they disagrees humourlessly..I will give them a like for a good and clever post.
I don't always have to agree with a post to like it.
Mystery solved.

 

[bbyrd009]

I hate to use links, but this is the only way to answer you.

Rabbi Soloveitchk on Original Sin

we should understand the rabbi's position on OS a bit better by this snippet:
"The Original Sin, is important not because it separates man from God (as it is in Christianity), but because it presents an alternate view of God, a demonic God-a gnostic reality."

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't always have to agree with a post to like it.
Mystery solved.

i can't help but note that scenarios like this in Scripture are usually followed by something to the effect of "well done, good and faithful servant."

 

[amadeus]

Which proves that because we don't know..we should ask God.
He alone sees the hearts.
But even when we do ask He doesn't always give a clear answer.
Sometime when I have questioned Him about the reliability of the person that's going to receive the money...He has said..." What's that to you...I told you to give it, what he does with it is not your business." lol

We should always be communicating with God and basing our actions on His response to us. As you say sometimes what God requires of us goes against what we might call our own better judgment or even our own accumulated knowledge:

"And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:" Actsc 9:11-15

 

[epostle1]

The law has been fulfilled, not abolished. Jesus didn't abolish ritual, He perfected them. We are still bound to the moral laws in the 10 Commandments.