Calling all Law Keepers.

[jimd]

I'm assuming this is one of the versus you are referring to. Assuming this is even referring to him keeping the law. Tell me, you ever wonder why it wasn't Job's blood that atoned for our sins since Job kept the law as you suggest? Can a created being claim to reconcile unto himself for redemption that which he did not create? After all, Jesus Christ is the word made flesh who is before all and spoke all into existence in six days. The sacrifice first had to be one made without hands unblemished from the world due to the original sin in the garden. What made Jesus the perfect sacrifice was about much more than just fulfilling the law.

I think this is Job trying to justify himself rather than God, see chapter 32: I don,t agree with the doctrine of original sin. I think you are right about what made Jesus the perfect sacrifice.

 

[Dcopymope]

I think this is Job trying to justify himself rather than God, see chapter 32: I don,t agree with the doctrine of original sin. I think you are right about what made Jesus the perfect sacrifice.

Its quite possible that he was trying to justify himself, unless someone can cite the verse that quotes God himself saying that Job or anyone else but Jesus for that matter kept the law. From the verse I cited, that's Job talking, not God.

 

[Angelina]

Believe that the law and the prophets were pointing toward Christ. The law is a shadow of the real thing which is in Christ. Matthew 22:36-40.
If you do these things, then you will be keeping the whole law. 1 John 4:10-14 Love God, love your neighbor...

 

[jimd]

Its quite possible that he was trying to justify himself, unless someone can cite the verse that quotes God himself saying that Job or anyone else but Jesus for that matter kept the law. From the verse I cited, that's Job talking, not God.

God did credit Job with keeping the law the same as He does us. We can know this by taking the scripture as a whole, not by just choosing one verse over another. If we come to our conclusions by picking and choosing we come up with many contradictions. If we find a contradiction we can know we have something wrong. Example: God calls some people righteous. Do we then believe only those named are righteous? No. We understand from the whole counsel of God, all His children are righteous and how they are made righteous.

 

[jimd]

Believe that the law and the prophets were pointing toward Christ. The law is a shadow of the real thing which is in Christ. Matthew 22:36-40.
If you do these things, then you will be keeping the whole law. 1 John 4:10-14 Love God, love your neighbor...

And we don't even do those very well yet He accepts us as perfect through Jesus Christ our Lord, Praise God!

 

[Dcopymope]

God did credit Job with keeping the law the same as He does us. We can know this by taking the scripture as a whole, not by just choosing one verse over another. If we come to our conclusions by picking and choosing we come up with many contradictions. If we find a contradiction we can know we have something wrong. Example: God calls some people righteous. Do we then believe only those named are righteous? No. We understand from the whole counsel of God, all His children are righteous and how they are made righteous.

Yes, God called plenty righteous, but the point is this, were they counted as righteous because they kept the law or was it because of their faith like Abraham? Again, even assuming anyone could uphold the whole law, what difference would it make for us and the whole of creation? Can that person, a created being, that upheld the law atone for your sins or can it only happen through the blood of the word, which was God from the beginning made flesh that can save you? I don't think this question has ever been answered before.

 

[Angelina]

And we don't even do those very well yet He accepts us as perfect through Jesus Christ our Lord, Praise God!

The law was surpassed by the real thing, because he [Christ] fulfilled the requirements of the law through the sinless sacrifice of himself on the cross. 2 Corinthians 5:21. This is love.

 

[jimd]

Yes, God called plenty righteous, but the point is this, were they counted as righteous because they kept the law or was it because of their faith like Abraham? Again, even assuming anyone could uphold the whole law, what difference would it make for us and the whole of creation? Can that person, a created being, that upheld the law atone for your sins or can it only happen through the blood of the word, which was God from the beginning made flesh that can save you? I don't think this question has ever been answered before.

Because of their faith. Only God.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks Gods Grace. Yes, of course we are required to obey the law, only now that we are saved we are credited with perfect obedience by grace through faith that is accompanied by works. In other words Jesus makes it possible the same way He makes salvation possible.

Well jimd,
You've said all the magic words which some here like to negate:
"of course we are REQUIRED to obey the law"
(some here don't like the word "required" -- I wouldn't know what to replace it with!)

"Grace through faith that is accompanied by works"
(Yes. We all like Ephesians 2:8-9, but not everyone likes 2:10)

"Jesus makes [obedience] possible the same way He makes salvation possible".
(AMEN! He DID, after all, send us the Holy Spirit to be our helper for this very reason --- making it possible)

I just get a bit confused when I hear other believers state that we are not required to obey the law OR that the law has been abolished.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think this is Job trying to justify himself rather than God, see chapter 32: I don,t agree with the doctrine of original sin. I think you are right about what made Jesus the perfect sacrifice.

What do you believe the doctrine of original sin is?
I've heard others say this.
Don't you understand original sin to be the first sin commited by man in the Garden??
(of which the effects have been passed down to all of us)

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, God called plenty righteous, but the point is this, were they counted as righteous because they kept the law or was it because of their faith like Abraham? Again, even assuming anyone could uphold the whole law, what difference would it make for us and the whole of creation? Can that person, a created being, that upheld the law atone for your sins or can it only happen through the blood of the word, which was God from the beginning made flesh that can save you? I don't think this question has ever been answered before.

This has been answered by theology DC
Persons are counted as righteous because of their faith.

A created being could NOT atone for our sins. Only God could have done that. This is why Jesus had to be fully man (for us) and fully God (for God).

A human could repay a human's debt,
but not GOD'S debt. It took God to do that.

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm assuming this is one of the versus you are referring to. Assuming this is even referring to him keeping the law. Tell me, you ever wonder why it wasn't Job's blood that atoned for our sins since Job kept the law as you suggest?

Well you are intimating here that the Bible does not say that Job kept the law, when the opening makes it pretty clear that he did,

1There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

What made Jesus the perfect sacrifice was about much more than just fulfilling the law.

can't disagree there, but that was not the premise before, wadr.

 

[bbyrd009]

What do you believe the doctrine of original sin is?
I've heard others say this.
Don't you understand original sin to be the first sin commited by man in the Garden??
(of which the effects have been passed down to all of us)

you might note how the doctrine of Original Sin differs from the Law of sin and death.
You are not "born a sinner" as the doctrine states, and this plank is nowhere in Scripture.

 

[jimd]

Well jimd,
You've said all the magic words which some here like to negate:
"of course we are REQUIRED to obey the law"
(some here don't like the word "required" -- I wouldn't know what to replace it with!)

I sometimes use the word (try) in order to keep down confusion.

[/QUOTE]"Grace through faith that is accompanied by works"
(Yes. We all like Ephesians 2:8-9, but not everyone likes 2:10)[/QUOTE]

It's simply because they don't understand, our works are made perfect the same way we are, through Christ Jesus.

[/QUOTE]"Jesus makes [obedience] possible the same way He makes salvation possible".
(AMEN! He DID, after all, send us the Holy Spirit to be our helper for this very reason --- making it possible)

I just get a bit confused when I hear other believers state that we are not required to obey the law OR that the law has been abolished.[/QUOTE]

Again, it is because they do not understand, it's the condemnation of the law that has been abolished for those who are in Christ. Not the law itself. Christ fulfilled the law, in Him we do also.

Sorry, I have not learned how to multi quote yet. Could someone please explain?

 

[Helen]

- Be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. - You, ... hath he quickened, ... having forgiven you all trespasses; blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. - Even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

 

[jimd]

What do you believe the doctrine of original sin is?
I've heard others say this.
Don't you understand original sin to be the first sin committed by man in the Garden??
(of which the effects have been passed down to all of us)

This doctrine was brought about by a misunderstanding of Psalms 51:5. David is simply saying he is a child of adultery, in which case the sin is in his mother and father. Ezekiel 18: is clearly teaching the sins of the father (or mother) are not passed on to their child. Not to say they cannot teach their children to sin, that is another matter. Paul, in Romans 5: is using what is called a simile to teach that just as Adam fell, we all fall, that is by disobedience.

 

[jimd]

- Be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. - You, ... hath he quickened, ... having forgiven you all trespasses; blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. - Even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Please notice: Paul is saying the law is weak through the flesh, not in itself. The weakness is in us, not the law but praise God in Christ He has overcome our weakness.

 

[Richard_oti]

Sorry, I have not learned how to multi quote yet. Could someone please explain?

I noticed that before each quote after the initial, you had "(/quote)", which is "end quote".

You can simply use (quote), or copy and paste such as "(QUOTE="jimd, post: 334557, member: 7644")" and place it before each section of text, that way it identifies to whom you are responding.

I changed the brackets to parenthesis so that it would show as text.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

you might note how the doctrine of Original Sin differs from the Law of sin and death.
You are not "born a sinner" as the doctrine states, and this plank is nowhere in Scripture.

Psalm 51:5;
"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

The Jews believed this long before the catholic church was around.

There's always someone who comes along to give it another meaning to fit their beliefs.
All you have to do is look at a child.
The first thing they learn to say is "NO!".

 

[bbyrd009]

Psalm 51:5;
"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

The Jews believed this long before the catholic church was around.

ya well the Jews were divorced and scattered too, i don't care what belief unsupported by any other witness the Jews believed. If your quote is true then we are sinners from our youth cannot be true, right? We sin from a young age, yes, but not from birth. Newborns do not sin, and it is recognized that you cannot sin without being "accountable," iow knowing the law, knowing the difference between good and evil. What you have dug up here is a reflection on willfullness, which is not the same as sinning.

There's always someone who comes along to give it another meaning to fit their beliefs.

Yes, and we have established means to test them with Scripture, first and foremost a "witness" another Scripture that supports the meaning, and you are welcome to list yours and i will list mine, if you think it will forward your opinion here, BAM do so, and we will see. The doctrine of Original Sin is crap, and contravenes the Law of sin and death, as many Doctorates of Theology have already argued better than me; even Catholic ones,
"The doctrine of Original Sin is not found in any of the writings of the Old Testament. It is certainly not in chapters one to three of Genesis." Herbert Haag, former president of the Catholic Bible Association of Germany, Is Original Sin in Scripture?

"The concept of Original Sin is alien to Jewish tradition." Elie Weisel

sorry i don't have a...more respected source for that, i guess i need to go find one, but imo perhaps you might quote a respected Jew that disagrees here, and we'll see.

You are a sinner when you sin, and not before.

• It is well known that the Council of Trent insisted on the doctrine of Original Sin; yet the doctrine of Original Blessing is a far more ancient and Biblical doctrine. The Council did not deny this (nor could it); nor did they ever say what Original Sin even means.
• Understand how this doctrine disagrees with so much of the rest of the Bible; the 'age of accountability', etc., and see that you are responsible for your sins, and that it isn't possible for a baby to sin.
• What does God say? "...the LORD said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth." Genesis 8:21
  Which may sound like a condemnation to someone unfamiliar with God's condemnation; but the important part of this verse for us at the moment is the from his youth part. You are not "born a sinner" in the sense that Western Christianity teaches; and it doesn't matter if you are an atheist or have never been in a church, this founding premise has become baked into your assumptions.
• "The harm that has been done to souls during the centuries of Christianity, first by the literal interpretation of the story of Adam, and then by the confusion of this myth, treated as history, with later speculations, principally Augustinian, about Original Sin, will never be adequately told."Paul Ricoeur, The Symbolism of Evil
• This is "dualism", recognized by sages from Eckhart to Daly as "the sin behind all sin." Separation. Subject/object relationships.

How to Recognize the Fallacy of Death Centric Western Christian Models

All you have to do is look at a child.
The first thing they learn to say is "NO!".

and it is acknowledged that that is because that is what they hear the most, the first thing they are taught is "no," they are trained into sin iow, and copy their parents' willfullness first, but in ignorance, as they have no concept of law yet. If you suggest that a parent's word is law, well, just try it and see what happens, it fails too.