False!
I hold to a biblical position and have tried to demonstrate it throughout this thread. In addition, my article,
Perpetual virginity of Mary promoted by false document, deals with the biblical and other material.
I do not hold to the Protestant Tradition of Luther, Calvin, Zwingli & John Wesley, who were coming out of the RCC, and continued to believe in Mary's perpetual virginity.
My position comes from Scripture. I find nothing in Scripture to support Mary's perpetual virginity.
That's no fallacy but your wanting to label it as a fallacy when it is not.
Oz
Hi OZ...My response to you is in red; your statements are in black. I am reposting this since I can't find where you responded to it. The last several paragraphs are the most pressing for me.
Here is a list of some contradictions between
The Protoevangelium of James and the Bible (from,
Is the Perpetual Virginity of Mary a Biblical View?)
Protoevangelium of James vs The Bible
1 Gabriel is called an archangel (PeJ, Chapter 9:22), which was a common designation for Gabriel in apocryphal literature written after the first century. (For example, see
Revelation of Paul,
The Book of John Concerning the Falling Asleep of Mary, and
The Apocalypse of the Holy Mother of God.)
The Bible never identifies Gabriel as an archangel, but Michael is described as an archangel in
Jude 1:9. The idea of Gabriel as an archangel seems to be a misconception that began in the second century.
No argument here. The practice of calling Gabriel an archangel started in the 2nd Century which is when Proto. of James was written. All historians generally agree it was written in the middle of the 2nd century. Since adding the word "archangel" to the text DOES NOT destroy the perpetual virginity belief we will move on and throw out that silly "contradiction".
2 Mary’s response to the angel is different than what is recorded in Scripture. “What! Shall I conceive by the living God, and bring forth as all other women do?” (PeJ 9:12).
Bible: Luke 1:34 states, “Then Mary said to the angel, ‘How can this be, since I do not know a man?’”
Putting Mary's response to the angel IN CONTEXT shows (depending which translation you use) that Mary "questioned in herself" OR "reasoned with herself". That STRONGLY suggest that she was thinking it (PeJ 9:12) in her mind, and it was not what she actually said to the angel. But why put statements in context if it throws another wrench in your theory?
3 Elizabeth fled the Bethlehem region with her son John (the Baptist) to the mountains because of Herod’s wrath when he decided to kill all the baby boys around and in Bethlehem (PeJ 16:3).
Bible: Concerning John the Baptist,
Luke 1:80 states, “So the child grew and became strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his manifestation to Israel.” It was Joseph, Mary, and Jesus who fled from Bethlehem because of Herod (
Matthew 2:13–15).
I agree that Herod was out to kill all the baby boys around and in Bethlehem. Hebron, which is where John the Baptist was born, is only 18 miles from Bethlehem. That sounds like "the Bethlehem region" to me. How many miles away from Bethlehem do you have to be for it NOT to be considered "in the region"?
4 Jesus was born in a cave outside the city of Bethlehem (PeJ 12:11–14:31).
Bible: Jesus was born
in Bethlehem, the town of David, according to
Luke 2:4, 11 and
Matthew 2:1.
Here in the States each of the 50 states are made up of counties. I live in the County about two miles from one City limit (population 450,000) and one mile from another City limit (population 5,000). When anyone asks me where I live I tell them I live in the City that is closest to me which is also the city I get my mail at. I tell them I live in City X even though I really live in the County. So was Jesus born inside the City limits of Bethlehem or was he born on the outskirts of town that everyone considered Bethlehem? Can you imagine this conversation:
Oz: Let's go visit my friend Joseph while he and Mary are in the Judea region.
Marymog: Ok...Let's go. Where are they?
Oz: In the Judea region. I already told you that Mary.
Marymog: Right. Got it. But can you narrow it down a little bit more please so we know which road to take?
OZ: Just outside of Bethlehem.
Marymog: Thank you Oz. Now we know what road to take and which city we are going to. Bethlehem!!
Oz: Mary!! Technically we are not going to Bethlehem. We are going to the Judea region.
Marymog:
Another minor discrepancy that is no worse than the discrepancies in scripture.
5 The angel of the Lord, when speaking to Joseph in a dream, said to take Mary but does not mention having her as a wife. The priest chastised Joseph and accused him for taking Mary as a wife secretly by the priest. Joseph takes her home but is reluctant to call her his wife when they go to Bethlehem (PeJ 10:17–18, 11:14, 12:2–3).
Bible: Matthew 1:19 reveals that Joseph was already Mary’s husband (they were betrothed) before the angel visited him in a dream.
Matthew 1:24 points out that after the angel visited Joseph, he kept her as his wife.
Once again, putting the Proto. of James in context, Joseph did accept her as his wife and went to enroll her as his wife: How shall I enroll her? As my wife? I am ashamed. As my daughter then? But all the sons of Israel know that she is not my daughter.
This contradiction does not negate perpetual virginity.
6 Mary wrapped Jesus in swaddling cloths and hid him in a manger at the inn to keep him from the massacre by Herod’s men (PeJ 16:2).
Mary: Mary and Joseph were warned of Herod’s plot by an angel, and they fled to Egypt (
Matthew 2:13–14).
I am not sure where you got your translation from but I have two other reliable translations (Roberts-Donaldson, M.R. James) that differ from yours:
And when Mary heard that the children were being slain, she was afraid, and took the young child and wrapped in swaddling clothes and laid him in an ox-manger.
And Mary, having heard that the children were being killed, was afraid, and took the infant and swaddled Him, and put Him into an ox-stall.
Neither of those translations mention a manger at the inn. Furthermore, this event happened AFTER the Magi left Bethlehem and AFTER Herod eventually heard that he was being mocked by the Magi. They didn't have telephones or email back then so it probably took a week or two for Herod to hear what was going on and send out the troops. Mary and Joseph were probably long gone out of Bethlehem by then. The ox-stall could have been in any city 50 miles from Bethlehem. None of this debunks the perpetual virginity teaching and it is not even contradictory to scripture.
7 Wise men came to
Bethlehem and inquired of Herod where the Child was born (PeJ 21:1–2).
Bible: Wise men came to
Jerusalem to inquire where the child king was (
Matthew 2:1).
Once again the translation you used, which I can't find, does not mirror the reliable translations I have found: And there was a great commotion in Bethlehem of Judaea, for Magi came, saying.."
And there came a great tumult in Bethlehem of Judaea; for there came wise men, saying..."
BOTH translations say that the Magi went to Bethlehem but NEITHER translation say they met Herod there. Both translations also say that Herod sent officer TO the Magi.
If your basing your argument on a suspect translation then we need to talk. We need to discuss where you got your translations from my good friend.
I look forward to your response.
Looking Forward Mary!