It is not in the bible.....sola scripture

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,394
31,448
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
got kicked out of a congregation once for a heartfelt "Praise the Lord anyway" after a beloved (after she died, at least) member got a surgery that was proclaimed "miracle" by the cong a week or so earlier, lots of Huzzah and PTL, etc then. Pretty sure they (and she) were all convinced that Paul looked forward to dying to be "present with the Lord," too. Ok, real sure, bc i asked about that, too.

i was lucky to make it out alive, in hindsight; and i mean literally. Turned out she had not a single cong visitor in hospital, not even the pastor lol; and near as i could gather, no one even liked her, although that could mean anything, and i really couldn't hardly ask at that point, after putting my foot in on the "who saw her in hospital last?" thing
It seems that some congregations have their own way of controlling that unruly member that James wrote so much about. They believe strongly in the first phrase of the following...
"...a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;" Ecc 3:7
At least as pertains to those whose mouths they like better when they remained closed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Dear sir,

It seems your answer is that the ability to decide for all Christians what is good to the Holy Spirit DID NOT end with the Apostles?

Jesus gave the Apostles the authority to bind and loosen. Did that authority die with the last Apostle or did the Apostles pass it on to the other men that took their place?

Mary

Mary,

You still don't answer my question: As for the meaning of binding and loosing in Matt 18:18-19, what is your interpretation of these scriptural verses? To what 'authority' do you refer?

images


Oz
 

OzSpen

Well-Known Member
Mar 30, 2015
3,728
795
113
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
spencer.gear.dyndns.org
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Since God used man to give us scripture, does he not use man to reveal the Truth of scripture?

Come on, Mary! You should know that God gave Scripture by revelation to human beings. That is radically different from using people to interpret the Scripture.

These are 2 totally different topics you have rolled into one.

If use the book of John to rebuke and correct you about your beliefs on the lack of the real presence in the Eucharist and you use the book of John to prove me wrong......who is right? How do we know who is right since we both used scripture to prove each other wrong?

God gave us the recipe for deciding this:

Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true (Acts 17:11 NIV).​

Oz
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,394
31,448
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
No, it's not enough because that evidence is subjective and it has no more clout than the subjective 'evidence God put in me' of another person who comes to a different conclusion.
For me it is enough!

"I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:6-7

If you want an increase in this, ask of God for it. You are sincere and do not ask amiss, will He refuse you?
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,394
31,448
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Avoiding again!
No more of this, for the reasons already given. You stand on your logic, but you deny that I might follow the Spirit. Walk your way if you can find God there. I must walk on what I perceive to be the highway of holiness.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
XXXXX
No, it's not enough because that evidence is subjective and it has no more clout than the subjective 'evidence God put in me' of another person who comes to a different conclusion.
hmm, "Who told you that you were naked? Here, have a skin then." suggests that God has a diff pov there imo? And God gots plenty of clout, right, so lack of clout is not why God made skins for Adam and Eve, i don't think. Iow God seemed to be treating Adam's subjective evidence quite differently than we do there, and we have many other examples of this too i guess

i'm gonna export your post to the SiT thread, too, as it has bearing over there, so don't be surprised when you get another tag for this one k
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
amadeus,

I find these to be unhelpful statements as you give not one example of the OT types and shadows and the NT types and shadows.

I would find it advantageous for you to illustrate to what you refer.

Oz
hmm, prolly this one, too.

ps, he illustrated that really good, i guess
 

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,048
785
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
Lets briefly analyze a couple of verses dealing with the brothers of Jesus.

Matthew 12:46-47, "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."

Matthew 13:55, "Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"

In both of these verses, if the brothers of Jesus are not brothers but His cousins, then who is His mother, and who is the carpenter's father? In other words, mother here refers to Mary. The carpenter in Matt. 13:55 refers to Joseph. These are literal. Yet, the Catholic theologian will then stop there and say, "Though carpenter's son refers to Joseph and mother refers to Mary, brothers does not mean brothers but "cousins." This does not seem to be a legitimate assertion. You cannot simply switch contextual meanings in the middle of a sentence unless it is obviously required. The context is clear. This verse is speaking of Joseph, Mary, and Jesus' brothers. The whole context is of familial relationship: father, mother, and brothers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OzSpen

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,048
785
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
Psalm 69, A Messianic Psalm
There are many arguments pro and con concerning Jesus' siblings. But the issue cannot be settled without examining Psalm 69, a Messianic Psalm. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25, "But they have done this in order that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their Law, they hated Me without a cause."

Jesus also quotes Psalm 69:9 in John 2:16-17, "and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Fathers house a house of merchandise." His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Thy house will consume me."

Clearly, Psalm 69 is a Messianic Psalm since Jesus quoted it in reference to Himself two times. The reason this is important is that what is written between the verses that Jesus quoted. To get the whole context, here is Psalm 69:4-9,

"Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies; What I did not steal, I then have to restore. 5 O God, it is You who knows my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from You. 6 May those who wait for You not be ashamed through me, O Lord GOD of hosts; May those who seek You not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, 7 Because for Your sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. 8 I have become estranged from my brothers And an alien to my mother’s sons. 9 For zeal for Your house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach You have fallen on me."

Now, we have to be a little careful because we can't attribute everything in Psalm 69 as being messianic. But, this Psalm clearly shows that the speaker had brothers. The implication is strong that Jesus had brothers. As Amos 3:7says, "Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets."

Did Mary have other children? The Bible seems to suggest yes. Catholic Tradition says no. Which will you trust?

Of course, the Catholic will simply state that even this phrase "my mother's sons" is in reference not to his siblings but to cousins and other relatives. This is a necessary thing for the Catholic to say; otherwise, the perpetual virginity of Mary is threatened, and since that contradicts Roman Catholic tradition, they must interpret the Psalm in a manner that is consistent with their tradition.

The question is, "Was Jesus estranged by His brothers?" Yes, He was. John 7:5says "For not even His brothers were believing in Him." Furthermore, Psalm 69:8 says both "my brothers" and "my mother's sons." Are these both to be understood as not referring to His siblings? Hardly. The Catholics are fond of saying that "brothers" must mean "cousins." But, if that is the case, then when we read "an alien to my mother's sons," we can see that the writer is adding a further distinction and narrowing the scope of meaning. In other words, Jesus was alienated by his siblings, His half-brothers begotten from Mary.

It is sad to see the Roman Catholic church go to such lengths to maintain Mary's virginity, something that is a violation of biblical law to be married and fill the earth.

Did Mary have other children? | CARM.org
 

Marymog

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2017
11,284
1,633
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Only two choices, so I'll pick #1.
Hi tabletalk,

I agree with you that fallible people decide what is absolute truth. Fallible men gave us infallible scripture AND what books belong in that scripture.

So my question to you is: If God gave us infallible scripture via fallible men then why wouldn't He also have given fallible men the ability to discern The Truth from that scripture?

I believe He has given that ability to certain men. The Truth has not been eluding us for over 2,000 years like so many Christians believe. Since the Protestant Revolution the theory that anyone can read scripture and obtain "the truth" from it has divided Christianity. That theory, my truth is just as valid as your truth because the Holy Spirit guided me to the truth, is destroying and dividing Christianity.

I believe what scripture says: The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Jesus prayed that we would all be one, agreeing in all matters. The apostles set up a mechanism for that to happen; apostolic succession.

We didn't get infallible scripture via "faith" as you seem to believe. We got it via fallible men inspired by the Holy Spirit. YOU may have faith that The Catholic Church has been wrong about the number of books that are inspired; 63 or 72. Or you may have faith that everyone else's doctrine is wrong and you are right. However, it was not by faith that we were given infallible scripture. And it is not by faith that we are given The Truth from scripture. The Church gives us The Truth, just like scripture says.

Which Church is that? I have faith you will figure that out. :)

IHS....Mary
 

Marymog

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2017
11,284
1,633
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Mary,

You still don't answer my question: As for the meaning of binding and loosing in Matt 18:18-19, what is your interpretation of these scriptural verses? To what 'authority' do you refer?

Oz
Hi Oz,

We should put binding and loosing in full context: I will give you (Peter) the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

The keys Jesus was referring to are referenced in Isaiah 22:22; the keys to the house of David. Jesus passed those keys to Peter and Peter, thru apostolic succession, passed those keys on to his successor. Jesus later gave the other Apostles the authority to bind and loosen, however, he did not give them they keys like he did to Peter.

So the answer to your question is: the authority of The Church.

Mary
 

Marymog

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2017
11,284
1,633
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Come on, Mary! You should know that God gave Scripture by revelation to human beings. That is radically different from using people to interpret the Scripture.

These are 2 totally different topics you have rolled into one.

Oz
Hi,

Really? God gave us Scripture (the Truth) by revelation to human beings BUT God doesn't use human beings to properly interpret that Truth?

Did He reveal to us what scripture actually is (63 or 72) or are we allowed our own interpretation of that also?

If no one knows The Truth of scripture, or even how many inspired books are to be in scripture, how do we know when men are twisting scripture to their own destruction?

How are we all to agree and have no dissension among us if we are not able to know the Truth of scripture?

In 2 Timothy we were told what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also. When do you, OzSpen, believe that apostolic teaching stopped?

Two different topics rolled into one? I think not. It all comes down to authority. Who has the authority to decide what books (63 or 72) are scripture (the Truth) and who has the authority to reveal that Truth?

Are you suggesting they are two different authorities??

Confused Mary
 

Marymog

Well-Known Member
Mar 7, 2017
11,284
1,633
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
God gave us the recipe for deciding this:

Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true (Acts 17:11 NIV).​

Oz
Ok.....my 50 people examined scripture every day to see if what OzSpen was teaching was true and your 50 people examined scripture every day to see if what Marymog was teaching is true.

We still disagree. How do we determine who is right? The most noble ones? :D Who decides the most noble ones?

(hint) We could try abiding by scripture and do what scripture tells us to do in the book of Matthew.

IHS....Mary
 

Helen

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
15,476
21,155
113
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
bam state some Absolute Truth if you like, and we can see

Now that is where it hangs or falls. Amen?

The ONLY way we can state Absolute Truth is by reading it aloud the scriptures.
Then, as long as WE do not comment upon it and tell someone "what it means". We have absolute truth in our mouth. The great problem arises when 103 people each try and tell us what that "Absolute Truth" was meaning!!!

And then...we have the added problem of which translation of "Absolute Truth" do we read aloud to be "correct" and absolute. o_O

That is my two cents. :)
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
And then...we have the added problem of which translation of "Absolute Truth" do we read aloud to be "correct" and absolute. o_O
ya, from your "Holy Bible," that was translated for you lol. Lex never lies, i guess. Thought you linked absolute there, so i will, might be interesting.
and, since the term is not foreign to Scripture, and we know the term 'truth' is not either, may as well give the link for
absolute truth too i guess. and, what the heck, here's
Holy Scripture too. Well dang.
Sacred Scripture, maybe? Ah, one liar, no witness, disappears in Lex, right
Daniel 9:2 Lexicon: in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.
ha, note how ol' Jer phrases it so that one may connect books--which are suddenly not "sacred" anymore; what happened? witchcraft, scribes, what?--to Word, if one chooses to make that connect rather than to "to Jeremiah."
Holy Word
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Helen