No you were quick to supply scripture for the other posts as I knew you would. But you did not supply scripture for YOUR claim that God hates them. Do you have scripture for that or did you attemp to add to what God never said? Scriptures please.
Why did God love and forgive David so?
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I do believe that God hates the evil and if a man has no redeemable thing within him, will he not then be hated of God? What that means exactly is hard, if not impossible, for man to understand. How can a God that is Love hate? People hate, but it is not the same as God hating. Who can explain God so well as to be able to say it in man's language? And even if someone could, how many believers could or would understand or accept what he said?
Not to impressed with these scriptures and the way you would like them to fit. So every person that was there never got a second chance to change there mind in your thinking. You are way to fast to condem and trying to make scripture fit what you think God is like. God is all love and goes to the furthest for all. including all you think are not His. I am wuite sure many that were there when He made that comment had time to rethink there first opinion of Christ. Dont be in such a hurry to condem everyone. Its like you dont know why Christ came. He never came to die for our sins. Do bother coming back with scripture that dont say what YOU think it means. But your gonna try
Fine. try away.
It is not hard at all, if you believe what the Scripture says. It may be hard to what is usually taught. But then look at the church today as a result of what is usually taught.
Stranger
Not to impressed with these scriptures and the way you would like them to fit. So every person that was there never got a second chance to change there mind in your thinking. You are way to fast to condem and trying to make scripture fit what you think God is like. God is all love and goes to the furthest for all. including all you think are not His. I am wuite sure many that were there when He made that comment had time to rethink there first opinion of Christ. Dont be in such a hurry to condem everyone. Its like you dont know why Christ came. He never came to die for our sins. Do bother coming back with scripture that dont say what YOU think it means. But your gonna try
You're not impressed...breaks my heart. Yet you offer nothing in defense. You give your opinion without Scripture yet want to chastise me for giving Scripture which you cannot deny.
Yes, yes, I know...God is all love. He just loves everybody. He is just so sweet. Nausea.
Stranger
Oh...Scripture please? Yet when I gave you Scripture you just ignored them. Now you demand Scripture. Yet you offer no Scripture in your defense.
Stranger
liafailrock
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My initial assumption (and I think it's reasonable) is if God did not love or forgive King David, he and his offspring would be cast away forever.
David had in his heart to love and follow God's commands. Even when he sinned with Bathsheba, he repented -- not just feeling sorry but truly following God. He loved God. But there is MORE than cause and effect here. God already made to King David an eternal covenant before this happened. Should we suppose God would have later been surprised? He said to King David:
And as since the time that I commanded judges to beover my people Israel, and have caused thee to rest from all thine enemies. Also the LORD telleth thee that he will make thee an house.
And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
Later in Psalm 89, the psalmist laments when the throne of King David appeared fallen, as he knew the promise was unconditional:
My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
It shall be established for ever as the moon, and asa faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
Lovingkindness is also translated mercy.
So we can see here that God swore mercy and an eternal throne to King David, not lying. The reason? I'm good with because God said so. David was a man after God's own heart -- we can debate all day if that was given to him by grace, or if because of that grace he willfully followed God in obedience which is more what I embrace. He loved God so God loved him and forgave him and he could proclaim:
Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Thus emphatically stating his sin was forgiven.
Lastly, had God not loved and forgiven King David, the covenant he made would have been a lie (back to the psalmist in 89). The covenant was very much in effect yet, and God promised loving kindness to his descendants which only makes sense that David was included in this since the promise is to him.
If we burden ourselves as to "why" there's only two reasons: something on God's part and something on man's part. I already answered the former. Does any of us (who call ourselves Christian) really believe the latter has any power or effect? And I made the indisputable point that King David was forgiven and loved. I trust that answers the OP.
Sometimes its best to put is down, and ask Him the question, than let Him point it out to you, that way you get it with no miscommunication. Sometimes , sorry most of the time we do it backwards,
Ah yes, it is not hard for all if we put it all in His hands...
I see of course what you mean with the "church". They teach people to quench the Holy Spirit although they may not even realize that that is what they are teaching.
Richard_oti
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Lamech is the first recorded to have taken two wives.
Jacob ends up with Leah, and then Rachel, sister wives of which was the source of a multitude of troubles.
Along comes Moses and haTorah in which it is written:
Lev 18:18 And thou shalt not take a wife to her sister, to be a rival to her
Which IMO was in part the result of Jacob and his sister wives and the troubles thereof. Of which, it is indeed possible that there were other such cases.
From the beginning, taking a near relative was not forbidden. Once the population grew enough, that was added. Just as IMO with Jacob's experience, so also the law was added not to take sisters as rival wives. Yet, there was still nothing that forbade the taking of more than one wife.
With regard to a king:
Deu 17:16a Only he shall not multiply horses to himself ... 17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.
Notice in the above regarding turning his heart away as with Solomon.
It does not forbid polygamy, it only [vaguely] limits the number of wives, just as with horse and silver and gold.
Just as it was written:
Lev 18:16 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness
Yet:
Deu 25:5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no son, the wife of the dead shall not be married without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of a husband's brother unto her.
That does not specify that he is exempted should he already have a wife.
Even before haTorah:
Gen 38:8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and perform the duty of a husband's brother unto her, and raise up seed to thy brother. 9 And Onan knew that the seed would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest he should give seed to his brother. 10 And the thing which he did was evil in the sight of YHVH: and he slew him also.
When haTorah came around, the option was given to refuse:
Deu 25:7 And if the man like not to take his brother's wife, then his brother's wife shall go up to the gate unto the elders, and say, My husband's brother refuseth to raise up unto his brother a name in Israel; he will not perform the duty of a husband's brother unto me. 8 Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak unto him: and if he stand, and say, I like not to take her; 9 then shall his brother's wife come unto him in the presence of the elders, and loose his shoe from off his foot, and spit in his face; and she shall answer and say, So shall it be done unto the man that doth not build up his brother's house. 10 And his name shall be called in Israel, The house of him that hath his shoe loosed.
Even with regard to inheritance, so also was provision made within haTorah:
Deu 21:15 If a man have two wives, the one beloved, and the other hated, and they have borne him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the first-born son be hers that was hated;
16 then it shall be, in the day that he causeth his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved the first-born before the son of the hated, who is the first-born:
Edit:
Provision was made that allowed the first wife to leave if the husband did not continue to provide for her three things:
Exo 21:10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. 11 And if he do not these three things unto her, then shall she go out for nothing, without money.
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@Richard_oti
My point was not that polygamy was not allowed under man's law. It certainly was. Even the law God gave to Moses did not forbid it, but Jesus's words to me indicate that God was moving us back toward what it was before that first disobedience. Man over the centuries perverted more and more God's "very good" into evil. According to God's plan, which He always had, His people [not defining them now] were to be renewed personally and his relationships with each other would also move toward God's ultimate plan. Those who did not improve would miss the boat. Not a very big boat is required, is it?
Polygamy is never said to be OK with God even though He allowed it. He also permitted men to murder and rape. This did not mean He approved of any of them. Men needed to grow back toward what God wanted in the beginning. No one has to agree with me. While in the totality of scripture I see it, I realize that others may not. I won't try to round up scriptures to support my belief in this respect. Polygamy is obviously not the only problem man has had to deal with.
My point was not that polygamy was not allowed under man's law. It certainly was. Even the law God gave to Moses did not forbid it, but Jesus's words to me indicate that God was moving us back toward what it was before that first disobedience. Man over the centuries perverted more and more God's "very good" into evil. According to God's plan, which He always had, His people [not defining them now] were to be renewed personally and his relationships with each other would also move toward God's ultimate plan. Those who did not improve would miss the boat. Not a very big boat is required, is it?
Polygamy is never said to be OK with God even though He allowed it. He also permitted men to murder and rape. This did not mean He approved of any of them. Men needed to grow back toward what God wanted in the beginning. No one has to agree with me. While in the totality of scripture I see it, I realize that others may not. I won't try to round up scriptures to support my belief in this respect. Polygamy is obviously not the only problem man has had to deal with.
Richard_oti
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Good evening Amadeus,
My post was not intended as contrary to yours. But rather to fill out a little with regard to it.
Mat 22:28 In the resurrection therefore whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. 29 But Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven.
Precisely! Sorry if I misunderstood you. It was difficult for me to understand from your post exactly your intention. I thought it was a partial disagreement. My bad.
I do not always expect to be right. God has changed or should I say corrected my vision too many times since I first believed for me to get too set in the way that I walk or even try to walk. God alone is always right. When I am an overcomer as Jesus was an overcomer then I will always be right. I don't believe I have made that far yet.
Give God the glory!
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Richard_oti
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I wasn't very clear either. I should have stated the intent.
The day I stop saying stupid things, will be a day to remember! <chuckle> Or, it could be the day I shut up. That, or like the George Jones song: "He Stopped Loving Her Today".
Be blessed!
I dont need scripture to prove you are telling us what YOU think God is like. You are not telling the truth and misleading people into beliveing God is like what you think He is. YOU do not have one scripture to back up what you said. If you do produce it. But the fact is you have a twisted view of God and what He is like. If God love for mankind makes you sick then that explians everything which is far to easy to see in you any way.
Please produce the scripture that says God hates unbelivers. Or stop the lying and twisting what I and everyone else is saying. One again we see a one side convsersation where you have selective reading glasses and selective responces.
So, I give you Scripture to prove what I am saying. You don't need Scripture to disprove what I am saying. Yet you say it is I that is just giving my opinion?
Reread what I have said. My point is that God loves those Who are His. He doesn't love those who are not His. And God knows those who are His from the very beginning. One may be an unbeliever at this time but will come to Christ later. God knows them now and loves them now even though they have yet to come to Christ. But there are those who are not His, who reject Christ now and will never come to Him. God does not love them.
Thus God loves David. Why, because he still had some good in him? No. Because David is one of Gods.
Stranger
This is kinda a funny conversation above about being God's....not being His.
I would have a rhetorical question to look everywhere...in the sky, under a rock,
to your left and to your right and below you into infinity..show us where God is not;
show us what exists without God.
What is there that God does not permeate.
All That Is belongs to, is within God.
It is the separation from this knowledge that causes all sorts of ideas that anything
is not of Him, because of Him, within Him, an extension of Him with a spark of light or His essence within it.
Anyone can quote away any verse saying this is not so, it will not change this truth.
I don't need any scripture from any religion, Hindu, Islam, Judeo-Christian, Buddhist to
know this ...and I know there are others like me.
I could never think otherwise...ha, the thought of something not being part of God is kinda funny to me...thus, all is His, per se...the good, the bad and the ugly...the Alpha through to the Omega.
I would have a rhetorical question to look everywhere...in the sky, under a rock,
to your left and to your right and below you into infinity..show us where God is not;
show us what exists without God.
What is there that God does not permeate.
All That Is belongs to, is within God.
It is the separation from this knowledge that causes all sorts of ideas that anything
is not of Him, because of Him, within Him, an extension of Him with a spark of light or His essence within it.
Anyone can quote away any verse saying this is not so, it will not change this truth.
I don't need any scripture from any religion, Hindu, Islam, Judeo-Christian, Buddhist to
know this ...and I know there are others like me.
I could never think otherwise...ha, the thought of something not being part of God is kinda funny to me...thus, all is His, per se...the good, the bad and the ugly...the Alpha through to the Omega.
Thank you, for the verses you gave!!
This is music to my ears, and I feel the same...here, an excerpt from PS 139:
O Lord, you have examined my heart
and know everything about me.
You know when I sit down or stand up.
You know my thoughts even when I’m far away.
You see me when I travel
and when I rest at home.
You know everything I do.
You know what I am going to say
even before I say it, Lord.
liafailrock
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And along that line, don't forget the mercy and lovingkindness I pointed out. I'm mainly into KJV of the bible but the translators of the NIV felt justified to use the word love in Psalm 89 depending on the translation one uses. I can't imagine anyone obtaining mercy and lovinglingdness and an eternal covenant like that if God hated him or even felt indifferent. "After one's heart means" like-minded. God loves those who keep his commands.
Sometimes I find when a person is looking for answers they want a plain biblical text in black and white the way they want it worded or stated. But there's many ways to say one loves another and the wording is not like they want it, but the context testifies to it nonetheless.
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