"Raise the dead"

[Helen]

I tried getting into this discussion with you ( @Richard_oti and @amadeus ,) but you both believe that redemption is only 'on the table' until the last breath....so I can't.

I just cannot go there...I believe salvation goes deeper ,it is greater, and love is without ending.
I'd rather believe what I believe and see God as a loving Creator for His creation ...and then find that I am wrong...than to believe in a God who can happily "shut the door of heaven" and have a throw a Party saying .."Oh what a wonderful Plan I had..90% into hell and 10% of mankind saved... Yay did we do well.."
Nop, can't and wont do it. I absolutely cannot see God in that any more.
That is not even close to what I believe that the Father has revealed to me over the years.
I'd rather spend my last decade believing what God showed me, than believe such things about God as the majority teach and have been brainwashed to believe... I would hate to be in the shoes of those who think that they understand God's heart..but later they find God shakes His Head and says" So you never did get quiet enough to know and see My heart.."
I can't do it.

Now ask me how I really feel about the subject!!!

 

[Helen]

@Richard_oti @amadeus
We haven't seen the end of Judas yet. Don't count him out.

 

[bbyrd009]

God who can happily "shut the door of heaven" and have a throw a Party saying

this party that everyone seems to believe is in some other dimension or whatever, i find no support for this at all in the Book wadr. The kingdom is within you, right, or beside you; but has been pitched to be "after you die," right, that's when this imaginary party starts

 

[bbyrd009]

"Oh what a wonderful Plan I had..90% into hell and 10% of mankind saved... Yay did we do well.."
Nop, can't and wont do it. I absolutely cannot see God in that any more.

me neither, but that is because Understand I AM, not Understand I WILL BE TOMORROW

 

[amadeus]

I tried getting into this discussion with you ( @Richard_oti and @amadeus ,) but you both believe that redemption is only 'on the table' until the last breath....so I can't.

Consider then this:
If a person can completely overcome all of his world while he still has time left in his veil of flesh... if he can...?

Jesus did, for I believe he overcame the last obstacle in the Garden of Gethsemene rather than on Calvary. When a person has overcome completely before while there is still time it means that for him there is special work that needs to be done.

Jesus was an overcomer as I say in Gethsemene at the end of Matt 26:39, but in order to open the door to the Tree of Life for others, he went to the cross to pay the price for our sins, which no one else could afford. Everyone else was dead.

If any of us overcomes it all as Jesus did while time still remains to us, we may be certain that God also has job for us to do. It will be a job corresponding to what we have become. Before overcoming we did not qualify for such a job.

I just cannot go there...I believe salvation goes deeper ,it is greater, and love is without ending.
I'd rather believe what I believe and see God as a loving Creator for His creation ...and then find that I am wrong...than to believe in a God who can happily "shut the door of heaven" and have a throw a Party saying .."Oh what a wonderful Plan I had..90% into hell and 10% of mankind saved... Yay did we do well.."

Are you still stuck on the flesh of man? Is not all flesh going to die? Even the flesh of the born again, even the flesh of overcomers is going to die. The flesh which does not contain a new man at the end has no future.

We are in hell now. You have born witness to the pain. Those without a new man when the old man and his fleshly container is gone will not even be a memory. For him even hell will have ended.

 

[amadeus]

@Richard_oti @amadeus
We haven't seen the end of Judas yet. Don't count him out.

I count no one out. If someone is out, it because that was the way he chose. God knows who did and who did not. How would I know if He did not tell me? He has not.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

glad you asked that, Matthew 27:52 "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose". key word arose, not resurrect. listen, 1 Corinthians 15:37 & 38 "And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body". Matthew 27:52 said bodies of the SAINTS. not God given or resurrected bodies.
PCY

(Acts 13:36-38)
For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

(Psalm 16: 10) "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."

So, I am still stuck on the first and second resurrection. "many bodies of the saints which slept arose" can you explain further?
"Matthew 27:52 said bodies of the SAINTS. not God given or resurrected bodies" what do you mean?

Once Jesus Christ is or was manifested, resurrected:
does not "His body" include all those a part of "His body"...meaning also David and the OT saints? (Matthew 27: 52) " And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." maybe key is "went into the holy city".

(Ezekiel 37: 13) "And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of the your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD."


(Galatians 6:8) "For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption: but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."

Galatians 3: 27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

(1 Corinthians 15)
"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. (Christ body is Spirit, not flesh. He is not joined to a harlot, but a quickened Spiritual body."
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;
the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual,
but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (we were born of the natural, afterward the born of Spirit)
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly."

We are to bear the image of Christ, on earth as it is in heaven.
By death of the flesh. we are to (pick up your cross and follow me) ...follow where? to death and resurrection?
Made a quickening Spirit (1 Peter 3) "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

Have we not been brought to God? By Christ?
There's our prison. "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;" --to set the captives free. We (by the Holy Spirit) preach to the spirits in prison. This is the work of the Spirit, and it is work that can not be accomplished apart from the Spirit of God, revealing our faith with works is not dead faith, but alive.

Having put on Christ, do we not NO longer sow corruption, but instead sow the incorruptible? And please, don't ask me what I see as evidence to my questions.
We are told to walk by faith, not sight.

 

[Richard_oti]

<snip>
Yes, Judas should tell people something, but they are too often not paying attention. Their minds are already made up.

To partake of the body is one thing. To partake of the Blood is another. Which is why it is written through faith in the blood, justified by the blood, do not trample or treat as unholy the blood which sanctified you. [Yes, for the nit-pickers, both are important, but from my perspective, injury done to the body, is more forgivable than insult to the blood.]

Perhaps this one?

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" I John 2:1
If you have another one, let me know. Thanks.

No, not that one, it is good and I did recall it at the time, but it was not it. If it ever comes to mind, I'll bring it forth.

<small snip>

Sometimes I pursue things I haven't understood yet and sometimes I don't.

I understand. I have done as much also. No better way to build upon, or "prove" / "disprove" an idea or theory than by putting it out before ones peers.

Circumstances matter and what God says matters even more.

Amen.

May you also be blessed Amadeus.

 

[Richard_oti]

I tried getting into this discussion with you ( @Richard_oti and @amadeus ,) but you both believe that redemption is only 'on the table' until the last breath....so I can't.

I just cannot go there...I believe salvation goes deeper ,it is greater, and love is without ending.
I'd rather believe what I believe and see God as a loving Creator for His creation ...and then find that I am wrong...than to believe in a God who can happily "shut the door of heaven" and have a throw a Party saying .."Oh what a wonderful Plan I had..90% into hell and 10% of mankind saved... Yay did we do well.."
Nop, can't and wont do it. I absolutely cannot see God in that any more.
That is not even close to what I believe that the Father has revealed to me over the years.
I'd rather spend my last decade believing what God showed me, than believe such things about God as the majority teach and have been brainwashed to believe... I would hate to be in the shoes of those who think that they understand God's heart..but later they find God shakes His Head and says" So you never did get quiet enough to know and see My heart.."
I can't do it.

Now ask me how I really feel about the subject!!!

<chuckle> So, how do you really feel about it?

I understand ByGrace. Nor would I ever hold such against you. You have a much greater "heart" than I. For all I know, mine might be shriveled up like a raisin and as hard as a pebble. I do know that I no longer have the "love" that I once did. Perhaps it has been subdued by sorrows. I don't know.

What I do know, is that what you say may be possible. But I can't go there, as I do not know. Thus I shall continue that it is in this life that we must choose. Today, as long as it is today.

Is "purgatory" a possibility? Yeah. But again, I can't go there.

In Luke 16, there are two places, one of comfort [figuratively a cool bay] and one of torment(s). Thus it required some sort of "judgment" as to who went where. In Enoch, there is a place of holding for the "good", and three places for those who are less than "good". So hey, according to Enoch, it is 25%. I know, bad joke. Not really a joking matter.

When Jesus was in the heart of the earth, he went and preached to the spirits in prison. Not those in the "good" place, but those in the place of "torment(s)". Thus the symbolism of burning the remains of the Passover before morning. Whether or not such would ever occur again [preaching to spirits in prison], I do not know. But I have seen nothing within the Scriptures or any of the apocryphal works indicative of such as in it would occur a second time.

No matter what I would "like" or "wish" to believe, I have to accept that which has been spoken.

I remember the first time I encountered Isaiah 45:7, and when I first encountered "God" sending a lying spirit, and giving a spirit of delusion so that they would believe the lie and such like. It was hard to accept.

Many are called ... few are chosen ...

 

[Richard_oti]

@Richard_oti @amadeus
We haven't seen the end of Judas yet. Don't count him out.

That is possible. But not something that I could "teach" or "preach". I can only use the symbolism of partaking of the body, without the covering of blood. Which, from my perspective, to partake of the body, and forsake the blood by trampling upon it, would leave one ...

For myself, having partaken of the body, should I walk away and become an atheist ... What would be my fate? I won't ask you to judge such, for it is not a fair question or burden to place upon you. So consider it rhetorical in nature, for I know the answer.

 

[Pisteuo]

I remember the first time I encountered Isaiah 45:7, and when I first encountered "God" sending a lying spirit, and giving a spirit of delusion so that they would believe the lie and such like. It was hard to accept.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
I think you meant 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 

[bbyrd009]

ha ya, the Spirit lying to someone seems really counter-intuitive huh. Had it happen to me personally a couple times. Of course it was my problem, not the Spirit, Which was ministering to me where i was at, at the time. Essentially "well, what would telling you the truth at the time have done for you, if you could not hear it? Now you can!"

still weird though

 

[Helen]

Is "purgatory" a possibility? Yeah. But again, I can't go there.

We each must be true to the level that we believe God's Spirit has led us to. We called to walk in another mans light. ( unless we are persuaded )

I do believe in The Fire....
I believe Heb 12:29 "For our God is a consuming fire." We know He is all things. He is the Cause and He is the Answer.

Num.31 23 "Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make it go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water."

You and I too.
1 Cor 3 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. ( oh how Christians dislike that word REWARD! So many believe that we will ALL be just one happy-clappy glob in Glory.)
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

Our friend @bbyrd009 is often mentioning fruit...well all the above shows the 'fire test' of our good-works fruit, be it gold silver and precious stones , or wood , hay and stubble. The Fire will test it all.

Only time will tell on who's side truth lays. :)

 

[bbyrd009]

what is currently true will shortly be false

 

[Helen]

what is currently true will shortly be false

Ha! Do what? Run that one by again!!

 

[bbyrd009]

Ha! Do what? Run that one by again!!

truth is a moving target, which is why laws are inadequate. God is the only Absolute Truth. BoL "lies" every time he posts, bc "13 years" has been there for over a year now...there are other ways to express this too, but in the Book these are cryptic and derivative, so that those who sit in the Holy Seat cannot read them, so that they can "see and not see."
but we could quote them

 

[Helen]

truth is a moving target, which is why laws are inadequate. God is the only Absolute Truth. BoL "lies" every time he posts, bc "13 years" has been there for over a year now...there are other ways to express this too, but in the Book these are cryptic and derivative, so that those who sit in the Holy Seat cannot read them, so that they can "see and not see."
but we could quote them

If God Himself is the Only Truth...which I agree.
How is He a "moving target"?

 

[bbyrd009]

If God Himself is the Only Truth...which I agree.
How is He a "moving target"?

hmm, well, we express this in other ways "God cannot be known, only known of," "The Unknown God," "he who says he knows anything does not yet know as he ought," some others. So it goes to the arg of whether one can "know God" or not, which is debated by many i guess

 

[Helen]

hmm, well, we express this in other ways "God cannot be known, only known of," "The Unknown God," "he who says he knows anything does not yet know as he ought," some others. So it goes to the arg of whether one can "know God" or not, which is debated by many i guess

Okay thanks. Got it.

Yes good question..."Can we really or even know God?"
Good line for a thread! :)

Obviously we can never "know" God ...He is too deep , too awesome...but He does give us glimpses of Himself..and glimpses of His nature...He draws us on...

We know we are supposed to be like Him and do as Father does..that would be very hard to obey if we knew nothing about Him.

I do believe the more time we wait quietly in His Presence is the place where He shows us the hidden things of the Spirit.
Something I do not do enough of these days.

 

[bbyrd009]

Obviously we can never "know" God

yet many believers would argue this point, i guess