The Inquisitions

[DPMartin]

Wrong. The Church cannot be corrupted. Men within the Church can be - and this is what happened many times in history.
The Church is the fullness of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23), which He identifies His very SELF with (Acts 9:4-5). Christ is not corrupt and neither can His Church be.

As for your use of "Roman" Catholic Church - it's also wrong. Where is no such thing. There is only "The Catholic Church."
"Roman" or "Latin" simply refers to the largest RITE of the Catholic Church. There are about 19 others, including the Byzantine, Alexandrian, Melkite, Coptic, Maronite, etc.

get it strait breadoflife, the state sponsored church is not sacred, God is sacred including His Word and His Presence.

no one is required to have religious reverence for the church of the state. you know, and the whole world knows that Paul and Peter speak of the faithful as the church. not the roman state sponsored Christian religion that declared itself to be universal. so spare use the propaganda, its over, get over it, its been over for four hundred years or more. we are moving forward now.

hence the semantics, then "church" meant the faithful, now, it means quite the opposite doesn't it?

 

[BreadOfLife]

get it strait breadoflife, the state sponsored church is not sacred, God is sacred including His Word and His Presence.

no one is required to have religious reverence for the church of the state. you know, and the whole world knows that Paul and Peter speak of the faithful as the church. not the roman state sponsored Christian religion that declared itself to be universal. so spare use the propaganda, its over, get over it, its been over for four hundred years or more. we are moving forward now.

hence the semantics, then "church" meant the faithful, now, it means quite the opposite doesn't it?

Wrong.

First of all, the Catholic Church was the Catholic Church before it became the official Church of Rome. You really need to study your history, pal.

Secondly - you're still confused by the whole "Roman" Catholic thing.
I thought I explained that to you in my last post.

Finally - all believers are not "the faithful".
The faithful are those who are obedient . . .

Matt. 7:21
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,* but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

 

[Marymog]

Inquisitions are ineffective in preventing heresy. I think fundamentalism is also ineffective. Living authentically by applying the teachings of Christ seems to be our calling; flooding the world with truth (loving others authentically) transcends all heresy (incomplete love).

Hi aspen,

A inquisition is a questioning or investigation to prevent heresy. If The Church never asks questions of the person they believe is committing a heresy, then how do they prevent heresy? Maybe the person that is committing the heresy is misguided and a few questions of that person by Church leaders can get the person back on track.

It seems the opposite of what you are saying would be true. If you DON'T ask questions (inquire) then you are unable to prevent heretical teachings.

You said "living authentically and applying the teachings of Christ" and "flooding the world with truth"!!! WHO'S Truth? Yours? Mine? The Catholic Church? The Mormon Church? The Baptist Church?

How do you suggest the Church confront those who persist in representing their beliefs as Christian beliefs (like the Westboro Baptist Church) when what they say or do contradicts Scripture?

What was the early Church (1st century) supposed to do to confront those who persisted in representing their beliefs as Christian when what they said or did contradicted the teachings of the Apostles? How were they to ferret out the "grievous wolves" (Acts 20:29) amongst them? How were they to watch out for the false prophets (Matt 7:15) amongst them if they didn't ask questions (inquire)?

IHS....Mary

 

[Marymog]

No. If there are 40,000 perpetually splintering Protestant churches, I don't think the Catholic Church can blame an inquisition on them all. Try the Church of England. My local church, as BOL is eager to point out, has only been in existence for 30 years; can't blame the Inquisitions on us.
Besides, the Catholic Church started it, and perfected it.

And, by the way, you shouldn't call it the RCC, as the R stands for the Roman Rite.

Hi Tabletalk,

My question was "I presume you know about the protestant inquisition's also?" Are you saying "NO" that you don't know about the protestant inquisitions? You have me confused.

You are right. The RCC started the inquisition's because there weren't any protestant churches in the late 1100's when the first inquisition's started.

It seems that your logic is that since the Catholic Church started the inquisitions (and the brutality that followed) that makes it ok for the Protestant Churches to do it also?

I don't follow your train of thought.

Why would you belong to a church that has only been in existence for 30 years when Jesus started his Church 2,000 years ago?


IHS...Mary

 

[Marymog]

Obviously I did not say that...what I am saying is...
...if God says we need them around, to let the truth shine brighter....that is well and truly good enough for me.

Hi BG,

I agree with you. You did not say that. It is what I inferred.

Who's truth shine brighter? Yours? Mine? The Mormons? Baptist? Methodist? Lutheran? Agnostic?

Since scripture tells us there will be heretics amongst us who decides who those heretics are? You? Me? The Mormons? Baptist? Methodist? Lutheran? Agnostics?

Mary

 

[aspen]

Hi aspen,

A inquisition is a questioning or investigation to prevent heresy. If The Church never asks questions of the person they believe is committing a heresy, then how do they prevent heresy? Maybe the person that is committing the heresy is misguided and a few questions of that person by Church leaders can get the person back on track.

It seems the opposite of what you are saying would be true. If you DON'T ask questions (inquire) then you are unable to prevent heretical teachings.

You said "living authentically and applying the teachings of Christ" and "flooding the world with truth"!!! WHO'S Truth? Yours? Mine? The Catholic Church? The Mormon Church? The Baptist Church?

How do you suggest the Church confront those who persist in representing their beliefs as Christian beliefs (like the Westboro Baptist Church) when what they say or do contradicts Scripture?

What was the early Church (1st century) supposed to do to confront those who persisted in representing their beliefs as Christian when what they said or did contradicted the teachings of the Apostles? How were they to ferret out the "grievous wolves" (Acts 20:29) amongst them? How were they to watch out for the false prophets (Matt 7:15) amongst them if they didn't ask questions (inquire)?

IHS....Mary

mary,

Your post makes the Inquisitions sound innocuous. You are correct; asking question is not a bad thing. Tortturing people until you get the answer you are looking for is.

 

[Marymog]

mary,

Your post makes the Inquisitions sound innocuous. You are correct; asking question is not a bad thing. Tortturing people until you get the answer you are looking for is.

Dear aspen,

That was my intent and I believe you know that. I made it VERY CLEAR what I was talking about when I wrote: A inquisition is a questioning or investigation to prevent heresy. It should have been clear to you that I was NOT including the physical torture that the Catholics and the Protestants put people thru. If it wasn't clear then, it should be clear now.

You conveniently dodged the other questions from my post: You said "living authentically and applying the teachings of Christ" and "flooding the world with truth"!!! WHO'S Truth? Yours? Mine? The Catholic Church? The Mormon Church? The Baptist Church?

How do you suggest the Church confront those who persist in representing their beliefs as Christian beliefs (like the Westboro Baptist Church) when what they say or do contradicts Scripture?

Curious Mary

 

[aspen]

Dear aspen,

That was my intent and I believe you know that. I made it VERY CLEAR what I was talking about when I wrote: A inquisition is a questioning or investigation to prevent heresy. It should have been clear to you that I was NOT including the physical torture that the Catholics and the Protestants put people thru. If it wasn't clear then, it should be clear now.

You conveniently dodged the other questions from my post: You said "living authentically and applying the teachings of Christ" and "flooding the world with truth"!!! WHO'S Truth? Yours? Mine? The Catholic Church? The Mormon Church? The Baptist Church?

How do you suggest the Church confront those who persist in representing their beliefs as Christian beliefs (like the Westboro Baptist Church) when what they say or do contradicts Scripture?

Curious Mary

I don’t believe the Church can stop heresy, which is why it has never been able to. When it has tried, not only have the specific heresies persisted, people have been tortured or killed. I didn’t mean to dodge your question.

All the Church can do is present the gospel.

 

[Marymog]

I don’t believe the Church can stop heresy, which is why it has never been able to. When it has tried, not only have the specific heresies persisted, people have been tortured or killed. I didn’t mean to dodge your question.
All the Church can do is present the gospel.

Hi aspen,

Of course The Church can't STOP people from speaking/teaching opposite of the truth of scripture. If we were all to speak as one with one voice and be as one as Jesus prayed for and scripture instructs us to do then there would be ONE voice and ONE Church to shine His light on heretical teachings. However Christianity is so fractured that we can't even agree who that ONE voice is; who has the authority.

Present the gospel according to whose interpretation? Yours? Mine? Isn't that why we have heresies because every church is presenting their own version/interpretation of gospel?

IHS...Mary

 

[aspen]

Hi aspen,

Of course The Church can't STOP people from speaking/teaching opposite of the truth of scripture. If we were all to speak as one with one voice and be as one as Jesus prayed for and scripture instructs us to do then there would be ONE voice and ONE Church to shine His light on heretical teachings. However Christianity is so fractured that we can't even agree who that ONE voice is; who has the authority.

Present the gospel according to whose interpretation? Yours? Mine? Isn't that why we have heresies because every church is presenting their own version/interpretation of gospel?

IHS...Mary

Mary, excuse me for asking, but the irony is eating me alive......

Are you Catholic? Are you in RCIA? Have you decided to join the church?

You seem to dodge the question in your posts, but defend the Catholic Church consistently.

 

[Marymog]

Mary, excuse me for asking, but the irony is eating me alive......

Are you Catholic? Are you in RCIA? Have you decided to join the church?

You seem to dodge the question in your posts, but defend the Catholic Church consistently.

Hi aspen,

I posted it previously, several months ago...I am currently attending RCIA.

I don't know what question I am dodging but you are very crafty at dodging my questions. The question I asked is based on what you stated (All the Church can do is present the gospel). I suspect you can back up what you stated?

Present the gospel according to whose interpretation? Yours? Mine? Isn't that why we have heresies because every church is presenting their own version/interpretation of gospel?

Which church were you talking about when you said, "All the Church can do is present the gospel"?



IHS...Mary

 

[Marymog]

get it strait breadoflife, the state sponsored church is not sacred, God is sacred including His Word and His Presence.

no one is required to have religious reverence for the church of the state. you know, and the whole world knows that Paul and Peter speak of the faithful as the church. not the roman state sponsored Christian religion that declared itself to be universal. so spare use the propaganda, its over, get over it, its been over for four hundred years or more. we are moving forward now.

hence the semantics, then "church" meant the faithful, now, it means quite the opposite doesn't it?

Hi DPMartin,

There are 2 billion Christians in the world. Each one of them, according to your theory, is the church?

If the "faithful" are as you seem to believe "the church" then which church do we go to too fulfill Matthew 18:17?

Which "church" is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Timothy 3:15)? The church of dpmartin? The church of marymog? The church of Joe that lives down the street from me? I have 2 billion choices

Curious Mary

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Using these two sources, and any others submitted, I hope to get the facts of this "tormented phase in the history of the Church" (per Pope John Paul 11)(from CERC).



(1)This is a link to the Catholic Education Resource Center (CERC): Status: Inquisition in the Catholic Church
(2)Henry Charles Lea, The History of the Inquisition of the Middle Ages.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

From the CERC article: "...religious heresies were considered a kind of political treason."

"To remedy the disorganized response to heresy, Pope Gregory IX (1227-41) took on the task of bringing the investigation of heresy under the discipline of the Holy See. What we term the Inquisition is simply the ecclesiastical tribunal with specially appointed judges (inquisitors) answerable to both the local bishop and the pope, whose task it was to investigate charges of heresy in a systematic and fair way."


So, there were 3 "phases" of the Inquisition: Ecclesiastical Inquisition, Spanish Inquisition and Roman Inquisition.

Questions about torture, imprisonment, burning heretics, effect on family and friends of the heretic, and other punishments, such as wearing crosses for life, pilgrimages, forced into a crusade, floggings etc. are all appropriate in this discussion.

I read that 22 million dead is not an exageration

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Actually - this is just more historical misinformation you've been fed.
It wasn't a bad or shameful time for the Church - for the most part. Some within the Church may have done bad or shameful things during this time.

As a matter of fact - the Inquisitions were a good thing, in that it gave people a chance to plead their case instead of simply being executed or tortured by the state. During the 400 or so years of the Inquisitions, only about 4000 people were executed - as opposed to the "millions" we often hear about.

come on, get serious, my sources says 22 million

 

[DPMartin]

Hi DPMartin,

There are 2 billion Christians in the world. Each one of them, according to your theory, is the church?

If the "faithful" are as you seem to believe "the church" then which church do we go to too fulfill Matthew 18:17?

Which "church" is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Timothy 3:15)? The church of dpmartin? The church of marymog? The church of Joe that lives down the street from me? I have 2 billion choices

Curious Mary

people call themselves and organizations call themselves all sorts of things. you live in the US just how dumb do you think I am? you know just as well as I do that there are organizations that call themselves churches that worship Satan there are churches that say God is a female, there are churches that don't acknowledge Jesus Christ as the Son of God/Word of God, so on and so forth are they the churches you are talking about? are those who call themselves Christian but don't believe Jesus is the Son of God are they the Christians you are talking about?

if an organization wants to call itself universal, that doesn't make it universal.

 

[aspen]

Hi aspen,

I posted it previously, several months ago...I am currently attending RCIA.

I don't know what question I am dodging but you are very crafty at dodging my questions. The question I asked is based on what you stated (All the Church can do is present the gospel). I suspect you can back up what you stated?

Present the gospel according to whose interpretation? Yours? Mine? Isn't that why we have heresies because every church is presenting their own version/interpretation of gospel?

Which church were you talking about when you said, "All the Church can do is present the gospel"?

IHS...Mary

Marymog,

Crafty? Ok....

My statement is backed up by reality. Heresies still exist despite the Catholic Churches attempts to stamp them out. Dualism, Modalism, elements of Montanism and Manicheanism and especially Gnosticism are still interwoven within Christian thought today. This is hardly an exhaustive list.

 

[tabletalk]

Marymog,

Crafty? Ok....

My statement is backed up by reality. Heresies still exist despite the Catholic Churches attempts to stamp them out. Dualism, Modalism, elements of Montanism and Manicheanism and especially Gnosticism are still interwoven within Christian thought today. This is hardly an exhaustive list.

Was Marcion a heretic?
He completely dismissed the "God of the Old Testament", "the wrathful Hebrew God was a separate and lower entity than the all-forgiving God of the New Testament". (from wikipedia)

Don't you teach something like that?

From "Pope wants to change the Lord's Prayer" on Jan.4th, post #162 , you said:
"1. As I have alluded to in my proceeding post, i do not believe that God is jealous, vindictive, nationalistic, murderous, counts his enemies, gloats over his victories, brags about his power, sends out people to murder other people, kills off humanity in floods, kills people for touching his Ark, writes up certificates of divorce for himself, tells people not to sin - while secretly hoping that we do sin and then, punishing all humanity for doing so. The list of projecting negative and self serving character deficits of humanity onto God continues, but you get the drift."

The Old Testament clearly teaches some of these truths you reject.

 

[BreadOfLife]

come on, get serious, my sources says 22 million

Okay - show me your "sources".
For this to be true - MOST of Europe would have been completely wiped out. Don't be so gullible . . .

One thing about the Church - it keeps excellent historical records - warts and all.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Okay - show me your "sources".
For this to be true - MOST of Europe would have been completely wiped out. Don't be so gullible . . .

One thing about the Church - it keeps excellent historical records - warts and all.

Lol, do you think you're on file there somewhere?
The inquisition went on from before 1100 AD until after 1800 AD
700 years of murders would not wipe out Europe
In most cases, evidence has been lost for or against the inquisition
The only real historian values we have are all Roman Catholic, which makes it very biased.
Recent novels by researchers claim about 32,000 total, though there is no way of proving it.
The black death is estimated to have killed 50-68 million people, about one third of Europe.
So actually, any number that people come up with may be possible.
But then again, we don't want to blame the one and only true church of God of doing anything bad, now do we?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Lol, do you think you're on file there somewhere?
The inquisition went on from before 1100 AD until after 1800 AD
700 years of murders would not wipe out Europe
In most cases, evidence has been lost for or against the inquisition
The only real historian values we have are all Roman Catholic, which makes it very biased.
Recent novels by researchers claim about 32,000 total, though there is no way of proving it.
The black death is estimated to have killed 50-68 million people, about one third of Europe.
So actually, any number that people come up with may be possible.
But then again, we don't want to blame the one and only true church of God of doing anything bad, now do we?

Ehhhh - WRONG.
The Inquisitions in Europe were matters of STATE - so the historical documentation apart from Church records is ALL there.

It's not only silly and ignorant to say that 22 million people were killed during the Inquisitions - it's an outright LIE.
As I stated earlier - the devastation cause by the sheer numbers would be something that history could NOT hide.

Funny how you first claim 22 million - and now you're downsizing it to 32 thousand.
Do your homework . . .