Is Temptation Evil?

[bbyrd009]

This is true. Well according to Scripture it is true, and I trust Scripture is true.

this is a bad paradigm wadr, even though it sounds really good on its face. I'm not suggesting "distrust Scripture," more like "understand that a one dimensional perspective on anything will not address the dichotomy inherent in truth," but i haven't eluci...said this to you yet bc it obv needs some refinement lol

another way to put that is "you can't state a single truth from Scripture,"
but you have to want to learn the lesson inherent in that first
plus, i guess you might even disagree!
(caution; danger ahead)

 

[brakelite]

That 1 Kings 17 is an example of reading into the scripture what you want to see. What you are saying by giving that example, is that the soul/spirit/whatever left that person, in other words his essential personality and being, and went to either heaven, hell, or somewhere else to continue to live without its body, but could still be cognitive of surroundings, could communicate, could feel emotions,pain, or pleasure, could think. And then after prayer, returned to the body. Or, I could put it another way, that person didn't really die, he simply changed address. Is that right? Is that what you are implying? If so, then you need to back that up with scripture also...which I believe you will have trouble doing (remember we are talking OT here) as there are numerous scriptures that directly contradict that concept. That being the case, you will need to return to 1 Kings 17 and re-calibrate your ideas on what a soul actually is, before deciding where it goes, or whether it goes anywhere, and not take the scripture so literally.

 

[brakelite]

Do you know exactly when Daniel 9 was written and can calculate Days? And according to what Calendar would that be?

Just saying if they knew, do you also?

Not only Daniel 9 (the 490 years). Daniel knew from personal study of Jeremiah that 70 years was up, that is why he was praying for Israel to be freed from their captivity. When the angel told him that 2300 days were remaining, Daniel fainted. If it were just literal days, he would have rejoiced, but he understood that prophetic time is in a day/year principle, so 2300 years was for him a great shock. Then in Daniel 9 the angel returned to clarify what no-one had understood (the 2300 days). 70 weeks are determined (cut off from the 2300 days) for thy people Israel 69+1. Calculated from the time the decree was issued to restore and build Jerusalem. That decree came forth from Artexerxes in 457BC. Excatly 69 weeks/482 years later, Christ was annointed by the holy Spirit at His baptism...27AD. The following week/7 years (the 70th week) He ministered in person...died in the middle of the week (after 3 1/2 years) the remaining time Israel was ministered to by the disciples (go ye first to the lost sheep of the house of Israel). The 70th week concluded after 3 1/2 years around the time of the stoning of Steven after which Paul was converted and took the gospel to the Gentiles. The remaining of the 2300 days/years you can calculate for yourself, and the meaning of it.

Anyone who was truly seeking their Messiah would have known the time of His appearing.
25 ¶ And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.

 

[aspen]

Good discussion!

 

[Taken]

this is a bad paradigm wadr, even though it sounds really good on its face. I'm not suggesting "distrust Scripture," more like "understand that a one dimensional perspective on anything will not address the dichotomy inherent in truth," but i haven't eluci...said this to you yet bc it obv needs some refinement lol

Knowledge is one thing, understanding the Knowledge is another thing.

Knowledge ABOUT God, and His Creations is revealed BY GOD.
Understanding OF Gods Knowledge is ALSO revealed BY GOD.

another way to put that is "you can't state a single truth from Scripture,"

Huh? Totally disagree.
But then one has to make his own decision
To Choose to believe All Scripture is TRUTH, or not. I choose to believe ALL Scripture is TRUTH.

but you have to want to learn the lesson inherent in that first
plus, i guess you might even disagree!
(caution; danger ahead)

Sure. The Decision to WANT to learn is the individuals Decision to gain Knowledge or remain Ignorant.

Scripture is Knowledge.
The Understanding of the Knowledge of Gods Word, IS His Understanding, that HE GIVES to particular people.

The Understanding of the Knowledge of Scripture, IS routinely what men DEBATE, and routinely ACCORDING to the mans understanding.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Not only Daniel 9 (the 490 years). Daniel knew from personal study of Jeremiah that 70 years was up, that is why he was praying for Israel to be freed from their captivity. When the angel told him that 2300 days were remaining, Daniel fainted. If it were just literal days, he would have rejoiced, but he understood that prophetic time is in a day/year principle, so 2300 years was for him a great shock. Then in Daniel 9 the angel returned to clarify what no-one had understood (the 2300 days). 70 weeks are determined (cut off from the 2300 days) for thy people Israel 69+1. Calculated from the time the decree was issued to restore and build Jerusalem. That decree came forth from Artexerxes in 457BC. Excatly 69 weeks/482 years later, Christ was annointed by the holy Spirit at His baptism...27AD. The following week/7 years (the 70th week) He ministered in person...died in the middle of the week (after 3 1/2 years) the remaining time Israel was ministered to by the disciples (go ye first to the lost sheep of the house of Israel). The 70th week concluded after 3 1/2 years around the time of the stoning of Steven after which Paul was converted and took the gospel to the Gentiles. The remaining of the 2300 days/years you can calculate for yourself, and the meaning of it.

Awe, and you were doing so well...then leave us hanging...

Anyone who was truly seeking their Messiah would have known the time of His appearing.
25 ¶ And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.

And Thus...what in your opinion was the catalyst for so many Jews, NOT KNOWING?

The 400 years lull and knowledge not being passed down? Influence of other cultures?

Thanks for sharing.
God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

That 1 Kings 17 is an example of reading into the scripture what you want to see.

Disagree. Rather saying reading the Scripture and trusting what I read is True.

What you are saying by giving that example, is that the soul/spirit/whatever left that person,

Precisely.

in other words his essential personality and being, and went to either heaven, hell, or somewhere else to continue to live without its body, but could still be cognitive of surroundings, could communicate, could feel emotions,pain, or pleasure, could think.

In Express Words. The Scripture speaks of the soul leaving, and the body void of life, and the soul returning to the body and the body revived.

As far as the soul; having record, knowledge, of the senses, and the senses continuing in the soul, YES, I agree that is what ocurrs.

And then after prayer, returned to the body. Or, I could put it another way, that person didn't really die,

Disagree. Yes the man, the body died. The living soul didn't die.

he simply changed address. Is that right?

Nah, wouldn't say how you say it.

Is that what you are implying?

Not implying. Stating flat out; the living soul departs a dead body. A living soul again imparted to a dead body, revives the body into a living state.

If so, then you need to back that up with scripture also...

Already did. I accept what the Scripture says as true. Your acceptance or denial is on you.

which I believe you will have trouble doing (remember we are talking OT here)

No, I do not have trouble doing what was already done.

as there are numerous scriptures that directly contradict that concept.

I have not seen one.

That being the case,

That is not the case. That is simply your comment.

you will need to return to 1 Kings 17 and re-calibrate your ideas on what a soul actually is,

1 Kings 17 does not inform what a soul is, nor was I speaking about what a soul IS. I was speaking of what a soul DOES, when a body is dead.

before deciding where it goes,

Evidence decides where a departed living soul goes.
God has angels that Escort departed living souls to where the evidence dictates they shall go.

or whether it goes anywhere,

They do.

and not take the scripture so literally.

Bad advice!

God Bless,
Taken

 

[brakelite]

Disagree. Rather saying reading the Scripture and trusting what I read is True.



Precisely.



In Express Words. The Scripture speaks of the soul leaving, and the body void of life, and the soul returning to the body and the body revived.

As far as the soul; having record, knowledge, of the senses, and the senses continuing in the soul, YES, I agree that is what ocurrs.



Disagree. Yes the man, the body died. The living soul didn't die.



Nah, wouldn't say how you say it.



Not implying. Stating flat out; the living soul departs a dead body. A living soul again imparted to a dead body, revives the body into a living state.



Already did. I accept what the Scripture says as true. Your acceptance or denial is on you.



No, I do not have trouble doing what was already done.



I have not seen one.



That is not the case. That is simply your comment.



1 Kings 17 does not inform what a soul is, nor was I speaking about what a soul IS. I was speaking of what a soul DOES, when a body is dead.



Evidence decides where a departed living soul goes.
God has angels that Escort departed living souls to where the evidence dictates they shall go.



They do.



Bad advice!

God Bless,
Taken

Here is a reply on another thread which may show you where I am coming from and explain my reasoning. Hell . . . The Bad News.

 

[Taken]

Here is a reply on another thread which may show you where I am coming from and explain my reasoning. Hell . . . The Bad News.

Your reference begin with a commentary on Philosophical gobbledygook, that is nothing what I said, and thus moot.

And your view doesn't really explain anything.

A body, soul, and spirit, are distinct things, of one man.

The body, soul, and spirit of one man, has a distinct identity (NAME): even when the man,
decides to be called by numerous names and titles, it is still the same one man, body, soul and spirit.

The body of all men; comes from an element of the created earth, called dust.

The living soul of all men; comes from the breath of God.

The natural spirit of all men; comes from the natural seed of the mans, natural (stock) seed. (Ie semen and a females fertilized egg).

The natural spirit of man; is simply a natural mans truth in the thoughts of his heart.

The body, of Adam was fully created, called a man, and called Adam; THEN, received LIFE from God, VIA Gods Breath, which quickened, (ie brought into a living state), the body of Adam.

THEN, was the man Adam, both a body, and a living soul. And His identity is called Adam.

Once the BODY, is quickened, the Natural Body, is "maintained" Living, BY it own life, called BLOOD.

The body's life, ie blood
The soul's life, ie Gods Breath
The spirit's life, ie natural truth

IS the makeup of A natural man.

Also within the natural man, is a BRAIN.
The Brain, aka, the Mind, has its own thoughts; and the ability to think, have ideas, logically deduce based on what it learns. It can think up lies, deceit, truths, etc.; while the truth of the man remains in the mans natural spirit, (which is the thoughts IN HIS HEART).

IF a man HAS BEEN "CONVERTED", one SHOULD know WHY, he elected to BECOME "CONVERTED", and WHAT precisely IS "CONVERTED" and "WHY".

There is PHYSICAL life, and SPIRITUAL life.

A Natural man IS born, SEPARATED from God. Called Born IN SIN. Yet more precisely called DEAD to God.

ANY Separtation FROM God, is called DEAD, whether or not the "THING" has life in it, and is functioniong, as it was created to function.

The Natural body of man - is being formed (by God), IN the womb of a woman, (not an individual life), as it relies on the woman's BLOOD (her life). It becomes it's own INDIVIDUAL body (self), when it is Severed from the Mother (her life, her blood), and is called born; it's own complete individual body.

As Adam was a completely formed body, THEN given a breath of Life, VIA Gods own breath, so also is a naturally born individual, when it is complete, born, and receives the breath of Life from God, called a Living soul.
It is now an Individual body, with it's own Live, functioning BLOOD, it's own breath of Life, quickening the Body, to it's own individual life.....and Separated from God.

Men, immediately, examine the genetalia, to determine, if this newborn will be called, a male or female. Which will later be a factor for natural reproduction of more of it's like kinds of natural things.

(Yet important to note; A natural man that DOES become RECONCILLED, and RECEIVE a NEW BODY, will not have genitalia of male or female to continue reproducing it's like kind of thing, since it shall be CHANGED, and reproducing NATURAL kinds of things shall end.)

And a clue is given us, from the very beginning, when in the day, the Lord created male and female, He called THEIR name Adam. (Gen 5). It was the male that named the female, (not God).

And that clue, is important knowledge, for later, when Jesus, comes forth out from God.
(For a different discussion).

Continued;

God Bless
Taken

 

[Taken]

Here is a reply on another thread which may show you where I am coming from and explain my reasoning. Hell . . . The Bad News.

Continued; part 2

A man naturally BORN, "IS" naturally SEPARATED from GOD...

Precisely, BECAUSE a man "NOT SEPARATED" from God...Heartfully (ie from the thoughts in his natural spirit, his truth, in his heart);
Believes IN GOD and HIS WORD.

A newborn, DOES NOT Know OF God, thus cannot Believe IN God, thus CANNOT confess Belief IN GOD, thus IS Separated from God.

A newborn has a process of NATURAL growing; AGING; LEARNING; through it's senses; hearing, seeing, touching, tasting, smelling.

The MIND processes these senses; so the BODY is aware and receiving the information from it's senses.

While the mans natural Body, spiritual Soul, & natural Spirit ARE ONE MAN; the thoughts and senses, are all interconnected, that the ONE MAN, is fully Aware of all things, experienced by it's own ONE Body, Soul, Spirit.

When a newborn grows to a child, to a teen, to a man....the entirety of the ONE, body, soul, spirit, mind...has exponentially received information; AND....individually begins ciphering, picking and choosing, deciding, concluding, WHAT information it believes and WHAT information it doesn't believe.

The Parents, the newborns father, is SUPPOSED to be the First, to teach the babe, with PURE TRUTH.
(Just as God did with Adam).

Yet we KNOW, exposure to other information that is GOOD, and EVIL (not true): the babe will quickly be exposed to.
(Just as happened with Adam).

Thus begins a babe, NOT ONLY Separated FROM God....but shall be bombarded with good and evil Infomation.

And the growing aspect of the babe, and his own senses functioning; the babe begins using his functioning senses and making decisions; based on the information he has received (good and bad).

Parents are not IN their childs MIND, but have a duty AS A PARENT, to keep a close guard on their child, observe them, hear them, and hopefully, correct their choices, they are making based on information they have received and are acting on.

Continued;

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Here is a reply on another thread which may show you where I am coming from and explain my reasoning. Hell . . . The Bad News.

Continued part 3

WHEN an individual hears of God; and his own interest is sparked to Learn ABOUT God and HIS Word...

A new Complex set of Knowledge and Information becomes received by the chlld/man.

Complex, Because it is the Hearing that is paramount; WITHOUT seeing.
Complex, Because it is Spiritual, NOT natural.

This new information; affects all of the senses, body, soul, spirit, mind of the ONE individual ; Just like any natural information one receives.

Skipping to an individual, who has DECIDED, in their MIND, they believe in God.
A good START, for them to hear, read, learn, ABOUT GOD. Following along, gathering Knowledge and Information.

Skipping to an individual, WHOSE thoughts of their natural spirit (ie their natural truth), in their natural heart....now HEART-fully, BELIEVES not only "about" God....BUT believes "IN" God and His Word....

NOW is the precise TIME of THAT individuals life.....God SPIRITUALLY intervenes IN THAT individuals life.

The FIRST intervention of God, IS:
To forgive the BODY and SOUL and SPIRIT,
Of the individual:
FOR; NOT BELIEVING IN God and His Word.

The Body - is Spiritually Crucified, washed, sanctified, and KEPT WITH Christ.
(SEE? The body is no longer separated from God)

The Living Soul - is Spiritually Restored.
(SEE? Restored to it's pure condition, it was WHEN if came forth out of Gods mouth, Gods breath, and entered the natural body, being once Again, WITH God).

The Natural Spirit - from a mans Seed BORN AGAIN from Gods SEED.
(SEE? The natural Spirit, born of a man, now born of an UNCORRUPTABLE Spiritual Seed.)

The Natural Spirit - having had (supposedly) received only TRUTH, from it's (parents, father); is now prepared to RECEIVE Pure TRUTH, from it's new Father; ie God and His Word).

And the Heart? Where the mans SPIRIT is?

That ALSO, corrupted via it's Natural Truth;
Becomes CHANGED By God (during conversion)...

God gives the man a New Heart, called Circumcision of the Heart. Ie, cutting off the natural OLD truth, making Way for Gods Truth to occupy the mans heart.

AND...ALSO, provides a pure chamber for the Holy Seed of God, the Holy Word of Gods Truth, the Holy Spirit of God to DWELL, and forever BE WITH that individual.

AND the MIND of the individual?
It continues to function naturally, hearing, seeing, reading, gathering information, ciphering, logically concluding, things of his everyday life.

And regarding; Spiritual things, or how God teaches to USE the precepts Spiritual TRUTHS in everyday natural life of the man.

The man himself has the Power of God within him, to conform his OWN MIND, to relent to the thoughts of his Heart, being FED, by the Spirit of Gods Truths.

And the Entirety of the mans, body, soul, spirit? Completely WITH God and His Word forever; and Completely forgiven; and Completely cleansed of all unrighteousness; and Completely Justified to Be REDEEMED, at ANY TIME, the Lord calls up to Him and Takes, the body, soul, spirit of that individual.

Continued;

God Bless,
Taken

 

[brakelite]

Awe, and you were doing so well...then leave us hanging...



And Thus...what in your opinion was the catalyst for so many Jews, NOT KNOWING?

The 400 years lull and knowledge not being passed down? Influence of other cultures?

Thanks for sharing.
God Bless,
Taken

Good question. But I think it has much to do with the natural selfish heart of man. They were expecting their Messiah to come, but it was to deliver them from the Romans, and to establish the nation as top dogs in the world with the riches, the fame, and power that goes with it. Even the disciples were infected with that selfish vision. And it took a long time for them to get over it. The two disciples chatting and disconsolate on the road to Emmaus on the morning of the resurrection a case in point. So they didn't recognise their Messiah who came to save them from themselves...the Romans could wait for later.
Interestingly, today we doing something similar, with an unusual twist. The church generally is still hoping for an earthly kingdom under Christ's rule, only they are joining the Romans in an attempt to bring it about. As to why no prophet after Malachi...they had the most explicit and detailed prophecy in scripture in Daniel 9:24-27 pointing unerringly to the very day the Messiah would be annointed. It stated specifically how long His ministry would be...the time of His death...and a further 3 1/2 years till the close of Israel's probationary period. 70 weeks probation. If they didn't turn back fully to the God by the end of that time, they would lose their status as God's chosen vehicle and turn elsewhere. Jesus Himself warned the Pharisees repeatedly in His parables that except they repent, the kingdom would be taken from them and given to another who would produce the required fruits. At the close of His personal ministry, Jesus said to them, "your house is left unto you desolate". Even then, God's prophetic promise of the 70 weeks continued right to the end granting 'whosoever will' the opportunity to come to Christ, and many did. But the nation itself refused their Messiah, and the nation, through its rulers and priests, gave their final decision of rejection when they murdered Steven. That prophecy ...that word of God...that vision of the 70 weeks through one of their most revered prophets, was their final test. They failed.
On another note, the modern penchant for removing the final week and placing it in some indeterminable time in the future and referencing it with the antichrist is simple downright blasphemy. It is a full and complete Messianic prophecy and it was thoroughly and completely fulfilled 2000 years ago.

 

[brakelite]

Your reference begin with a commentary on Philosophical gobbledygook, that is nothing what I said, and thus moot.

And your view doesn't really explain anything.

A body, soul, and spirit, are distinct things, of one man.

The body, soul, and spirit of one man, has a distinct identity (NAME): even when the man,
decides to be called by numerous names and titles, it is still the same one man, body, soul and spirit.

The body of all men; comes from an element of the created earth, called dust.

The living soul of all men; comes from the breath of God.

The natural spirit of all men; comes from the natural seed of the mans, natural (stock) seed. (Ie semen and a females fertilized egg).

The natural spirit of man; is simply a natural mans truth in the thoughts of his heart.

The body, of Adam was fully created, called a man, and called Adam; THEN, received LIFE from God, VIA Gods Breath, which quickened, (ie brought into a living state), the body of Adam.

THEN, was the man Adam, both a body, and a living soul. And His identity is called Adam.

Once the BODY, is quickened, the Natural Body, is "maintained" Living, BY it own life, called BLOOD.

The body's life, ie blood
The soul's life, ie Gods Breath
The spirit's life, ie natural truth

IS the makeup of A natural man.

Also within the natural man, is a BRAIN.
The Brain, aka, the Mind, has its own thoughts; and the ability to think, have ideas, logically deduce based on what it learns. It can think up lies, deceit, truths, etc.; while the truth of the man remains in the mans natural spirit, (which is the thoughts IN HIS HEART).

IF a man HAS BEEN "CONVERTED", one SHOULD know WHY, he elected to BECOME "CONVERTED", and WHAT precisely IS "CONVERTED" and "WHY".

There is PHYSICAL life, and SPIRITUAL life.

A Natural man IS born, SEPARATED from God. Called Born IN SIN. Yet more precisely called DEAD to God.

ANY Separtation FROM God, is called DEAD, whether or not the "THING" has life in it, and is functioniong, as it was created to function.

The Natural body of man - is being formed (by God), IN the womb of a woman, (not an individual life), as it relies on the woman's BLOOD (her life). It becomes it's own INDIVIDUAL body (self), when it is Severed from the Mother (her life, her blood), and is called born; it's own complete individual body.

As Adam was a completely formed body, THEN given a breath of Life, VIA Gods own breath, so also is a naturally born individual, when it is complete, born, and receives the breath of Life from God, called a Living soul.
It is now an Individual body, with it's own Live, functioning BLOOD, it's own breath of Life, quickening the Body, to it's own individual life.....and Separated from God.

Men, immediately, examine the genetalia, to determine, if this newborn will be called, a male or female. Which will later be a factor for natural reproduction of more of it's like kinds of natural things.

(Yet important to note; A natural man that DOES become RECONCILLED, and RECEIVE a NEW BODY, will not have genitalia of male or female to continue reproducing it's like kind of thing, since it shall be CHANGED, and reproducing NATURAL kinds of things shall end.)

And a clue is given us, from the very beginning, when in the day, the Lord created male and female, He called THEIR name Adam. (Gen 5). It was the male that named the female, (not God).

And that clue, is important knowledge, for later, when Jesus, comes forth out from God.
(For a different discussion).

Continued;

God Bless
Taken

Mmmm. While I agree with some of that, we are going off topic somewhat...even from the OP. But the bottom line is we have two choices. Either immortality comes to us as a gift from God, or God made us immortal from the beginning. I put it to you that immortality is a gift, a gift that comes to us on the day of the resurrection, at the second coming of Jesus. I could cite many scriptures to support this, but only one should suffice.
1 Cor. 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

I would add that no where in scripture is it even hinted at that immortality is offered as a gift to sinners. Nor is it anywhere suggested that they are granted it simply in order to keep them alive in order to be eternally tormented. That being the case, one must explain how any form f animated spirit can survive death without a specific resurrection as promised, for it has always been the hope of Christians that they would be resurrected. Never did they claim any hope of an immediate appearance in heaven upon death, despite the oft used phrase of Paul's when he said "to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ", which phrase, in order to be understood without contradiction to the rest of scripture, must be understood differently to the popular interpretation.
Permit me to quote from a sermon by Amos Phelps:
This doctrine (the immortality of the soul) can be traced through the muddy channels of a corrupted Christianity, a perverted Judaism, a pagan philosophy, a superstitious idolatry to the great instigator of mischief in the garden of Eden. The Protestants borrowed it from the Catholics, the Catholics from the Pharisees, the Pharisees from the pagans, and the pagans from the old serpent who first preached the doctrine amid the lowly bowels in paradise to an audience all too willing to hear and heed the new and fascinating theology…“Ye shall not surely die”. (Genesis 3:4)

It is a strange infatuation that the vast majority of Christianity today teaches a doctrine, the immortality of the soul, based on no greater authority than that of the great deceiver.

 

[Taken]

Here is a reply on another thread which may show you where I am coming from and explain my reasoning. Hell . . . The Bad News.

Continued part 4

When a natural man was created;
He was a Body of dust, created out of the Earth, and when that body's life (its blood) stops functioning;
The body becomes Physically Dead, and returns to the Earth from whence it came.

The living soul, that was imparted into the body, VIA, Gods Breath of Life; DEPARTS the physically dead body; and is escorted TO where the evidence reveals it shall go.

Where it shall go, and the evidence thereof is determined BY whether or NOT; that individual living soul; WAS or WAS NOT restored, and WITH God.

If it WAS restored; it is escorted BACK from whence it came; Back to Gods Heaven,
If it WAS NOT restored; it is escorted to Gods Hell.
And IN Heaven the Living soul, WAITS, WITH the Lord, for it's BODY to be redeemed, to the Clouds, glorified, and reunited with it's body.

And IN Hell the Living soul, WAITS, WITHOUT the Lord, for it's BODY to be raised, to Hell, reunited with it's body (not glorified), and Waits for the Lord to appear, that their body and soul stand before the Lord in Judgement.

And the Living Spirit of man?
The Living Spirit of A MAN, WHOSE spirit WAS born again from Gods SEED, also departs a DEAD body, and returns from whence it came, ie God in Heaven.

And the dead natural spirit of a man, WHOSE spirit was from a Corruptable seed, ie mans seed, AND Never was born again from Gods seed? It is raised with it's dead natural body, to hell like every natural part of the mans dead body.

The beginning of Scripture gives you clues, concerning a mans body, soul, spirit.
It also informs you, ONLY the natural body and it's insides comes from the earth and returns to the earth.
It also informs you, the body has NO LIFE in it until the Lord imparts LIFE into it.

Also one should have learned...God IS LIFE, and nothing has Life IN IT, without Life from God.

Also what God creates and makes are VESSELS, to whit, He imparts LIFE INTO, and departs LIFE OUT FROM.

A body is a vessel. A soul is a vessel. A heart is a vessel. Vessels are things created and made BY God, which HE imparts life INTO, and departs LIFE out of....at His pleasure, according to the evidence of WHAT He Claims for Himself; and WHAT He Shall Not Claim for Himself.

It is Scripturally and clearly revealed;
The body, spirit, mind, heart of an individual man are all created by the hand of God, out of a created earth; and all such things can not begin living (ie quickened to life), without Gods breath of life, imparted into a living soul, and that soul with life, imparted into a mans body; (that belongs to Him, regardless if it is called by a man's body's name), to bring the body into a living state.

It is Scripturally and clearly revealed:
A body is from dust;
A living soul is from Gods Breath;
A mans spirit is natural, unless QUICKENED, by God Seed.

It is Scripturally and clearly revealed:
A physically dead body returns to dust.
A living soul goes to where God sends it.
A natural dead spirit returns to dust.
A quickened spirit of Gods seeds, goes to God.

If one does not comprehend WHAT one man IS, or in what order and fashion that one man is created and made.....
I can see how it would also be difficult for that same man to comprehend the order and fashion of God redeeming the body, soul, spirit of a man In a precise order and fashion.

The SOULS of men belong to God.
The SOULS of men have LIFE from God imparted into such souls.

When a body dies....LIFE from GOD, does NOT remain in a DEAD ROTTING CORPS!

Ezekiel 18: 4
BEHOLD, ALL SOULS ARE MINE...

God IS LIFE. He decides when He shall impart and depart LIFE out of a SOUL.

HIS LIFE (living soul) did not Come out of the earth He created, NOR returns to the earth, to ROT, or remains in a Dead rotting body.

Trust the Truth of the Knowledge revealed in Scripture.
And for a man WHOSE spirit has been BORN again to eternal life, from Gods Seed....
And Gods Spirit indwells in the man...
That man HAS a DIRECT and forever connection to God, WHOM God Himself holds the KEY to HIS wisdom and HIS UNDERSTANDING of HIS OWN WORD...that any born again man CAN SEEK, and God will oblige in GIVNG THAT MAN, Gods OWN understanding of His Word.

Which BTW, is also taught, for such a born again man to SEEK, Gods Understanding of HIS WORD....over and above MANS MINDFUL understanding of Gods Word.

So, thanks for telling me, to not take Scripture literally.....but no thanks to your advice.

I decided LONG ago to Trust to believe the KNOWLEDGE God has provided FOR ME TO KNOW, and seek His Understanding, rather than that of Men and their MIND-ful logic and philosophical ideas concerning Spiritual things of God.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Good question. But I think it has much to do with the natural selfish heart of man. They were expecting their Messiah to come, but it was to deliver them from the Romans, and to establish the nation as top dogs in the world with the riches, the fame, and power that goes with it. Even the disciples were infected with that selfish vision. And it took a long time for them to get over it. The two disciples chatting and disconsolate on the road to Emmaus on the morning of the resurrection a case in point. So they didn't recognise their Messiah who came to save them from themselves...the Romans could wait for later.

Agree with that. And would add, THAT would apply IMO, to the ones Teaching (ie Rabbis), and the ones Hearing the Teaching.
But, there were, via, scattering, some being exposed to different cultures, ideas, etc., some Jews, who becoming generationally lost to participating in Jewish practices, hearing, and teachings....
These seem more specific to what Jesus said, when he came to seek the LOST. IOW, Jews having had a history with their ancient fathers knowledge, but generationally becoming less and less with the knowledge of their ancient fathers.
Even the Disciples...nothing really mentioned about their being Temple participants, just fishermen, trying to make a living. Not saying they knew nothing about God, but rather, OT godly men were STEEPED in Gods Word, were as the Disciples seems to be vaguely familiar.

Interestingly, today we doing something similar, with an unusual twist. The church generally is still hoping for an earthly kingdom under Christ's rule, only they are joining the Romans in an attempt to bring it about.

Yes, I can see that concept.

As to why no prophet after Malachi...they had the most explicit and detailed prophecy in scripture in Daniel 9:24-27 pointing unerringly to the very day the Messiah would be annointed. It stated specifically how long His ministry would be...the time of His death...and a further 3 1/2 years till the close of Israel's probationary period. 70 weeks probation. If they didn't turn back fully to the God by the end of that time, they would lose their status as God's chosen vehicle and turn elsewhere. Jesus Himself warned the Pharisees repeatedly in His parables that except they repent, the kingdom would be taken from them and given to another who would produce the required fruits. At the close of His personal ministry, Jesus said to them, "your house is left unto you desolate". Even then, God's prophetic promise of the 70 weeks continued right to the end granting 'whosoever will' the opportunity to come to Christ, and many did. But the nation itself refused their Messiah, and the nation, through its rulers and priests, gave their final decision of rejection when they murdered Steven. That prophecy ...that word of God...that vision of the 70 weeks through one of their most revered prophets, was their final test. They failed.
On another note, the modern penchant for removing the final week and placing it in some indeterminable time in the future and referencing it with the antichrist is simple downright blasphemy. It is a full and complete Messianic prophecy and it was thoroughly and completely fulfilled 2000 years ago.

Thanks.

Additionally another issue, is UNDERSTANDING the Word of God. For centuries, sometimes by default, sometimes taught, sometimes ignored....

Mans MIND can NOT figure out Gods Understanding of GODS OWN WORD.
It is not Written. It is not Transfered from man to man.
It is God alone, who gives a man, an angel, His Understanding OF HIS OWN WORD.

That IS satan's great dilemma.
He has Knowledge, like many men do...
But he is never given Gods Understanding...
just like many man are not.

And adding, that does not STOP, satan, or men from using their MINDS and DECLARING what God means...ie pastors, believers, unbelievers, philosophers, etc.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[bbyrd009]

Huh? Totally disagree.

ya, lotsa ppl do, i guess;

ok, start stating then, i guess from a Book full of Truth, should be no prollem to rip out like ten real quick right

 

[Taken]

Mmmm. While I agree with some of that, we are going off topic somewhat...even from the OP.

Yep.

But the bottom line is we have two choices. Either immortality comes to us as a gift from God, or God made us immortal from the beginning.

Mortal is in regard to that WHICH IS natural.
Your body IS Mortal. It's LIFE is mortal. It's LIFE is BLOOD.
The first man, who BTW was NOT born, but was mortal, became SUBJECT to death. And every BODY born thereafter, IS natural, IS mortal, precisely BECAUSE it is subject to death.

A BODY may receive a MORTAL wound, which simply means, an inflicted wound that cause the MORTAL body subject to DEATH, to actually die.

However, HOW a mortal body dies, is irrelevant. God already DECLARED, HE requires the BLOOD of every BODY. Thus EVERY body is MORTAL AND SHALL DIE.
Gen 9:5

I put it to you that immortality is a gift, a gift that comes to us on the day of the resurrection, at the second coming of Jesus. I could cite many scriptures to support this, but only one should suffice.

Yes, immortality is a Gift, FOR the Body, which IS mortal.

1 Cor. 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

I would add that no where in scripture is it even hinted at that immortality is offered as a gift to sinners.

Actually the GIFT is precisely OFFERED to sinners. Sinners WHO, were born Against God, and have heartfully claimed Belief in God. They are still sinners. And Still in the state of UNFORGIVEN SIN.
Rom 5:8

It is the beginning of a conversion. While the conversion is QUICK, there still is a precise order OF the conversion.

The Lord does not Convert a Restored man;
He Converts a SINNER. It is from the truth in heart of an UNconverted man, that confesses his Belief In God.....that is the beginning of a mans Conversion.

Nor is it anywhere suggested that they are granted it simply in order to keep them alive in order to be eternally tormented.

I never said an UNCOVERTED man is kept "eternally" alive. That appears to be your thought.

That being the case,

That is not anything I said. That is your case, you explain it. I can not explain what you think.

one must explain how any form f animated spirit can survive death without a specific resurrection as promised, for it has always been the hope of Christians that they would be resurrected.

You have already muddled, the issue, because you input, first speaking of a body, then some "animated spirit", whatever that is.

If you can not begin at the beginning and recognize the body, soul, and spirit of a man are separate things....how will you recognize when and how each thing is transformed...and goes to God.

Body's are mortal, subject to death, they die, they are buried, they rot. The resurrection pertains to specifically a Dead body. Not it's soul, not a quickened spirit.

Never did they claim any hope of an immediate appearance in heaven upon death,

Who said anything about a BODY, appearing in heaven upon death? I didn't. It clearly goes to the grave, rots, returns to dust, and WAITS, to be resurrected and glorified.

OT men were aware of burying DEAD body's.
And had a special ritual to accompany the burying of Dead Body's.

OT men KNEW the soul departed the dead body.

And ALL departed souls WERE escorted to Hell....to WAIT. There they (whos were Saved souls) WAITED in comfort with their father Abraham, WAITING for their Lord's soul to enter Hell, then LEAVE. (Because the Lord is FIRST in ALL THINGS) Once His SOUL LEFT, all living souls with Abraham, in Comfort, LEFT and RETURNED to Heaven, from whence such souls had come, via Gods Breath. NOW, they are in Heaven, with God, WAITING for the resurrection of their Body's.
And SINCE that day, of the Lord leaving Hell, all Saved living souls, departed out of dead bodies, are escorted to Heaven.
And all UNSAVED living souls, departed out of dead bodies, are still escorted to the misery side of Hell, without the Lord and without the Lords comforts.....thus their experience is torment, being without the Lord.

despite the oft used phrase of Paul's when he said "to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ", which phrase, in order to be understood without contradiction to the rest of scripture, must be understood differently to the popular interpretation.

Permit me to quote from a sermon by Amos Phelps:
This doctrine (the immortality of the soul) can be traced through the muddy channels of a corrupted Christianity, a perverted Judaism, a pagan philosophy, a superstitious idolatry to the great instigator of mischief in the garden of Eden. The Protestants borrowed it from the Catholics, the Catholics from the Pharisees, the Pharisees from the pagans, and the pagans from the old serpent who first preached the doctrine amid the lowly bowels in paradise to an audience all too willing to hear and heed the new and fascinating theology…“Ye shall not surely die”. (Genesis 3:4)

It is a strange infatuation that the vast majority of Christianity today teaches a doctrine, the immortality of the soul, based on no greater authority than that of the great deceiver.

It is a strange infactuation, that men do not comprehend the simplistic Knowledge in scripture.

Mortal things, are natural creations out of a created thing. Earth, ie dry land created, and out of the earth is created the Earth's own inhabitants...(one called animals, and one called man)....each HAVING BLOOD. Each subject to Death. Each brought into LIVING, by a SOUL...that belongs to God...is made by God...has Life from God in the soul....and is imparted into the created thing...called animal and man....both broadly called creatures....and such imparting...brings the Creature into a living state.

Since every Creature is mortal and Subject to Death....and the soul belongs to God....and the soul has Life in it that is Life from God....
God Himself Departs, the soul, with His life in it.......when the Creature's own life BLOOD, ceases to function.

Gods Life, Gods Souls....did NOT come out of the Earth, nor does it return to the earth.

And NOR has God as YET, departed His LIFE OUT OF ANY SOUL.

All souls, made by God, that have Life from God imparted into the soul, is STILL a Living Soul. (Even when the bodies of the creatures have died and are rotting returning to the earth)....

The Living souls, are WAITING for judgement.
Some living souls, have already BECOME, restore that they shall never have life departed from them, and thus shall forever and eternally REMAIN alive.

Some souls SHALL be JUDGED, by the evidence, they were NOT restored, and thus SHALL have Life departed from them, which such Life belongs to God, thus shall Return to the God, and the thing called a soul, that God made, and belongs to Him, He shall destroy.

So also, shall the body God created, which such soul occupied, shall be void of its blood, ie life, void of Gods life, ie soul...and such body shall ALSO be destroyed, along with its natural spirit, that was NEVER reborn with Gods Seed and eternal life.

Like I said; if one does not stick to the facts of the ORDER of what a man wholly IS, He can not also Stick to the facts of what a man wholly becomes.

It is the SINNER, natural man, the Lord either DOES or DOES not convert, all based on the evidence of that individuals natural heartfull truth.

And the conversion is of the WHOLE man, body, soul, spirit, by very specific methods that pertain specifically to the body, soul, spirit.

The conversion is effected specifically WHILE the man is IN his natural Blood Life.

While a natrual man CANNOT VISUALLY SEE ANY aspect of the Conversion...
He can not See a transformed body, or soul, or spirit....it is still WHOLLY accomplished Spiritually, by our Spiritual God.

We WAIT, to SEE, the manifestation....
IOW, we continue living a natural life, with out natural blood, and our natural eyes, that CAN NOT SEE supernatural things. But God can, and thus KNOWS PRECISELY WHO is wholly transformed and WHO is not.

1 Thes 5:23

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

ya, lotsa ppl do, i guess;

ok, start stating then, i guess from a Book full of Truth, should be no prollem to rip out like ten real quick right

ya, lotsa ppl do, i guess;

ok, start stating then, i guess from a Book full of Truth, should be no prollem to rip out like ten real quick right

Maybe quick for you, but I post from my phone, and can not copy and paste scriptures.

Gen 17:1
...I am the ALMIGHTY God

Gen 28:13
...I am the God of Abraham

Ex 3:14
...I AM THAT I AM

Ex 6:7
...I am the LORD your God

Ex 31:13
...I am the LORD that doth sanctify you

John 13:13
...you called me Master and Lord....I am.

John 14:6
...I am the WAY, the TRUTH, the LIFE..

John 17:16
...I am NOT of the world.

John 18:6
...I am he

1 Pet 1:6
...I am holy

Rev 1:8
..I am alpha and omega the beginning and the ending...the ALMIGHTY

REV 22:13
I AM the first and the last.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[bbyrd009]

I AM the first and the last.

so then all of the "Absolute Truths" that you can state from Scripture amount to "God," right

and statements like "i believe all of the truth in Scripture" are thus revealed

 

[Taken]

so then all of the "Absolute Truths" that you can state from Scripture amount to "God," right

and statements like "i believe all of the truth in Scripture" are thus revealed

Well, actually, sort of reversed.
I chose to Believe ALL of Scripture is TRUTH.

So regardless of what I read, in Scripture; attributed to being said by WHOM;
(Father God, Son, Holy Spirit, angels, men)...
I Trust it is TRUE; precisely because The Lord, sanctioned it as Truth, with His own Spirit.
Ie. IN-SPIRAT-ion APPROVAL of God.
2 Tim 3:16

God Bless,
Taken