Saved By Fear?

[Dcopymope]

How do people come to Jesus by the father?

Well, as Jesus said, the Father has to actually draw your heart near to him, its not really just us spreading the gospel and the receiver making a choice. Once you put the word of God in them, the Father takes over from there, as he is ultimately the one who does the work of salvation. He's the one that knows the heart after all, so it will be up to him when it comes down to it. This is why the word of God is likened to a double edged sword. This is how I currently understand it.

(Hebrews 4:8-12) "For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. {9} There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. {10} For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. {11} Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. {12} For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

 

[Stranger]

So, what does 'elect' mean in 'elect angels' in 1 Tim 5:21?

Are they elected to their heavenly position in the same way that human beings are elected?

Are there elect demons?

Elect angels means the same as elect men. Chosen by God to be with God in eternity.

I know of no election of demons.

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, as Jesus said, the Father has to actually draw your heart near to him, its not really just us spreading the gospel and the receiver making a choice. Once you put the word of God in them, the Father takes over from there, as he is ultimately the one who does the work of salvation. He's the one that knows the heart after all, so it will be up to him when it comes down to it. This is why the word of God is likened to a double edged sword. This is how I currently understand it.

So does Good draw all men to Him as in John 12:32 and then we each decide if we want to serve God?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

2. Homiletical outline: Joshua 24:14-28

This is designed to summarise what the text is saying and grab the attention of the congregation or readers with relevant information that comes directly out of the text. This is the outline for a sermon that I will preach (not prepared yet) on this text. It may take 2 sermons of 30 minutes each to cover this material.

a. God does not deceive you: A command means you can do it (v. 14)

• Fear the Lord
• Serve him
• Put away the other gods.

source: Truth Challenge » Free will

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If determinism is true we are all essentially uncontrolled, noise-making puppets with our strings pulled mindlessly by the physical universe. Because we always remain part of the universe we can never cut our strings and step outside the universe in order to objectively evaluate anything, including our own words. We effectively communicate nothing and know nothing.

Clearly then, Harris's thesis of determinism being true is self-defeating. If one asserts that there are valid, comprehensible reasons for believing that determinism is true, as Harris does, then in doing so he shows that determinism must necessarily be false.

Everything in our experience of life shouts at us that human beings do have free will. Even Harris, despite his denial of free will, repeatedly contradicts himself in the book, even within the one sentence: "Dispensing with the illusion of free will allows us to focus on the things that matter", p. 53. No Sam, if we have no free will, no control over our minds, we cannot choose to dispense with, or focus on, anything. "Where people can change, we can demand that they do so", p. 62. But don't you remember Sam, you said on p. 29 that "the future is set"?

Our whole lives are based on the premise that humans are genuine free agents yet most philosophers strongly deny that such agency exists. Nevertheless, we hold each other largely accountable for our actions (philosophy professors still mark their students' papers!). Indeed, critics of this article may deride me for rejecting determinism but then their derision can only truly make sense if determinism is false.

source: http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=17152&page=2

We effectively communicate nothing and know nothing.

Does that ring a bell with someone on this forum?
Haw Haw!

 

[GodsGrace]

We effectively communicate nothing and know nothing.

Does that ring a bell with someone on this forum?
Haw Haw!

No. Tell us about it.

 

[Stranger]

This is the biggest cop-out "interpretation" I have ever seen. We could give you a hundred scriptures that prove that God wants everyone to be saved, and you'll just throw out your cop-out answer that "all" doesn't really mean the kind of "all" you think it means; it means the kind of "all" that I want it to mean to help support what I believe. For some reason with you, "all" in this context isn't speaking of all individuals, but in the context of predestination speaking in plurality, it does mean individuals.

And then you fiercely argue semantics of the difference between "will" and "free will." I have no idea what your point is there. You say we have a will, but not a free will. Of course there are things that are out of the realm of possibility in our human nature to accomplish. But that doesn't mean we can't want those things. Your will is just what you want. Sometimes we don't get what we want, but when it comes to salvation, God did give us a will to choose. That's why there are so many scriptures that talk about what we have to do to receive the salvation that Jesus paid for.

You, yourself, have stated that the "elect" still have to choose, and not only that, but salvation is even available to the non-elect to receive, if they so choose. So I have three questions about that. Is it possible for someone who is elect to not choose to be saved? Do you believe there are any non-elect people who have chosen to be saved. If so, does this mean that God tries harder with some people than others?

Then give them. All does mean all. It just doesn't mean the 'all' you want it to mean.

'Will' and 'free will' is not semantics. Two terms requires two definitions, not one. You are not paying attention to how I have described 'will' and 'free will'. Go back and reread. Then explain where you think I am wrong.

I have always said God gave us a 'will'. Why do you ask questions that assume I have not. Go back and reread.

To your 3 questions: 1.) No, it is not possible. 2.) No, no non-elect will choose to be saved. 3.) Not so---so does not apply.

Stranger

 

[Helen]

How do people come to Jesus by the father?

John 6:44 "No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

 

[GodsGrace]

John 6:44 "No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

I'd like to know how by @Dcopymope.

 

[Dcopymope]

So does Good draw all men to Him as in John 12:32 and then we each decide if we want to serve God?

Yes, John 12:32 can certainly be seen that way.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, John 12:32 can certainly be seen that way.

I believe it's the only way it can be seen.
Agree?

 

[Dcopymope]

I believe it's the only way it can be seen.
Agree?

Agree'd, but which one comes first, the gospel, or the "calling"? Is the calling the same as those he "predestined"?

 

[GodsGrace]

Agree'd, but which one comes first, the gospel, or the "calling"? Is the calling the same as those he "predestined"?

Well D
My point is that we weren't predestined.
God foreknew who would choose Him. That's all.
God calls all men to Him as in Romans 1:19-20
So God always called all men to Him, even before the gospel existed.
Some came to accept Him and some chose not to.

 

[Dcopymope]

Well D
My point is that we weren't predestined.
God foreknew who would choose Him. That's all.
God calls all men to Him as in Romans 1:19-20
So God always called all men to Him, even before the gospel existed.
Some came to accept Him and some chose not to.

You say we aren't predestined, but Paul states otherwise. Predestination is supposed to come first in the order of business according to Paul. Whoever God predestined he also called, whoever he called he also justified, and whoever he justified, them he also glorified. I think the confusion is in how our freedom of choice can be used and when it can be used. To say otherwise is to claim that humanity can just freely choose God without God choosing them first. This all depends on how you define predestination.

 

[twinc]

You say we aren't predestined, but Paul states otherwise. Predestination is supposed to come first in the order of business according to Paul. Whoever God predestined he also called, whoever he called he also justified, and whoever he justified, them he also glorified. I think the confusion is in how our freedom of choice can be used and when it can be used. To say otherwise is to claim that humanity can just freely choose God without God choosing them first. This all depends on how you define predestination.

neither GOD nor His children IMHO have been, can be or will be lost - twinc

 

[Dcopymope]

neither GOD nor His children IMHO have been, can be or will be lost - twinc

Never said that you could lose your salvation, but in the Bible predestination is defined as those he chose according to his will, not according to his foreknowledge of those he knows would choose him.

(Ephesians 1:3-6) "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: {4} According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: {5} Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, {6} To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

 

[OzSpen]

I don't think demons and angels are even the same thing, two different entities.

You provide no biblical evidence but provide your own opinion.

I suggest you check out what the Scriptures indicate. See: 'Are demons and fallen angels the same thing?'

 

[OzSpen]

How do people come to Jesus by the father?

Please forgive this down-to-earth example. Before Dad owned sugar cane farms, he earned his bread & butter for the family by cutting burnt & sticky sugar cane, carrying the stalks on his shoulder to the tram on the railway line or to the truck to take to the derrick where it was hoisted onto tram trucks to take on railway lines to the sugar mill.

Oxford dictionaries defines 'derrick' as: 'A kind of crane with a movable pivoted arm for moving heavy weights, especially on a ship' (2018. s.v. derrick). The derrick near our farm was a crane that moved cane from our truck (using slings under the cane) to the tram.

So, the means Dad used to get the sugar cane to the mill for crushing into sugar was a man carrying the cane stalks to the truck, the truck and the tram.

Likewise, the means the one God uses for people to come to Jesus is by the Father. It is an unseen enabling by the Father that makes salvation possible. I haven't seen such an action in person but on the authority of God, this is how salvation happens through the Father.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I would rather you answer my questions than give me someone else to argue with. I asked you questions concerning the nature of your will and God's will. Do you see them as the same.

Stranger,

If some Bible teacher states a doctrine or clears up a biblical verse better than I could, I quote that teacher.

Surely God wants us to do this. After all, it was He who gave gifts to the body of Christ to function in the church (Rom 12:7-9; 1 Cor 12:28-31; Eph 4:11-12). I thank God for sound Bible teachers who can teach me lots. I check them out with Scripture, based on Acts 17:11.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

God declaring is what makes one elect be it angel or man. It would take the same initiative from God to save angels that it took for Him to save man. But, He chose instead to save man.

Stranger,

There was another dimension declared in 1 Peter 1:1-2 (ESV):

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:

May grace and peace be multiplied to you'.

This is NOT unconditional election.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

We effectively communicate nothing and know nothing.

Does that ring a bell with someone on this forum?
Haw Haw!

Rollo,

That's why some of us give up communicating on forums like this. I'm at that stage.

Oz