Love

[Stranger]

I don't believe Jesus Christ's actions were the same as Adam actions. Adam was disobedient, Jesus actions at no time ever were disobedient. I don't believe God would encourage disobedience, so no Jesus actions were not the same as Adams. You will find nowhere in scripture where Jesus was guilty of any sin. No God does not punish us for doing things his way. I think the scripture saying, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me, When Jesus said those words, evidently he was fulfilling a prophecy concerning his death. (Psalm 22:1) In a qualified sense, Jesus could also have meant that Jehovah had removed his protection and let his Son die a painful and shameful death so as to test his integrity to the limit. An examination of the events on that final day of Jesus’ earthly life shows that God heard his prayers.
On the night of his arrest, Jesus prayed in the garden of Gethsemane. Three times he pleaded: “My Father if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me.” (Matthew 26:39, 42, 44) Jesus was not reluctant to give his life as a ransom for believing mankind. No, but he apparently was deeply concerned about the possibility of dishonoring his dearly beloved Father by dying on a torture stake as a cursed blasphemer. Did Jehovah hear Jesus’ prayer?

Years later the apostle Paul wrote: “In the days of his flesh Christ offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear.” (Hebrews 5:7; Luke 22:42, 44) Yes, on an agonizing night preceding his death, Jesus “was favorably heard.” But how?

Jehovah sent an angel who “appeared to [Jesus] and strengthened him.” (Luke 22:43) Thus strengthened, Jesus was able to face death on the torture stake. Apparently, Jehovah then gave him assurance that his death on the stake would not bring reproach on the divine name but would eventually be the very thing used to sanctify it.

Jesus actions were the same as Adams in that both went into a fallen state to deliver another. Adams was in disobedience to a command not to eat of the tree. Jesus Christ's was in obedience to submit to the will of the Father. The action was the same.

Note (1 Cor. 15:44-48). It speaks of the first Adam, and the Last Adam, each representing their race. One earthly or natural, the other heavenly. Nothing is said here concerning Adams sin being a factor, though it was. Simply 'earthly' or 'natural'.

Jesus submitted to the will of the Father. I don't see any Scripture or reason to believe Jesus was concerned about dishonoring His Father. That would have been just as impossible as Jesus sinning. His fear was over that which He was about to endure. And it was a fear that was justified as seen in His cry to God about being forsaken. This sacrifice was planned before God created the world. (Rev. 13:8) This was before Adam sinned in the garden. So such an action of giving oneself for another is pleasing to God.

Yes, Adam sinned. But I don't believe he sinned to be disobedient to God. He sinned because He didn't want to lose Eve and wanted God to get her back. Eve was in trouble because Adam was the head of the human race yet to be and was not fallen. God knows the difference. Remember Rahab the harlot lied to hide the spies. Was that a sin? Well, yes it was. But it saved the people of God from being killed. God knows the why and wherefore.

Stranger

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Oh mulitple posts , push a wrong button. Yes its funny how God is just like an abusive man. Nah God didnt punish Adam, death is just the consequence that came when sin entered into the world. something like this

Rom_1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Even removing Adam and Eve from the garden was for there (our) own good, can you imagine the problems if they had eaten of the tree of life after they had sinned, Hitler, stalin would live forever. oh what fun we would be having..

You need Him to be a punsiher, so you can be punished, is that it....

I believe that both Adam and Eve were traitors because Satan was saying God was a liar and an unjust ruler because Satan was saying God was withholding something that was in mankind's best interest to have. Satan convinced Eve that God was being unduly restrictive. What if she did eat from the tree? Satan told Eve outright: “You positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad.”—Genesis 3:1-5.
In this statement, Satan implied not only that Jehovah had withheld crucial information from Eve but also that He had lied to her. Satan was careful not to question the fact of God’s sovereignty. But he did challenge the rightfulness, deservedness, and righteousness of it. In other words, he maintained that Jehovah was not exercising His sovereignty in a righteous way and in the best interests of His subjects. Both Adam and Eve disobeyed Jehovah by eating from the forbidden tree. Their disobedience put them in line to receive the punishment of death, just as God had decreed. Satan’s lie raised some vital questions. Does Jehovah truly have the right to rule mankind, or should man rule himself? Does Jehovah exercise his sovereignty in the best possible way? Jehovah could have used his almighty power to destroy the rebels right then and there. But the questions raised pertained to God’s rulership, not his power. So eliminating Adam, Eve, and Satan would not have affirmed the righteousness of God’s rule. If anything, it might have called his rulership into question even further. The only way to determine whether humans could successfully rule themselves, independent of God, was to let time pass.
What has the passing of time revealed? Throughout the passage of time, people have experimented with many forms of government, including autocracy, democracy, socialism, and communism. The sum total of them all is epitomized in the Bible’s frank comment: “Man has dominated man to his injury.” (Ecclesiastes 8:9) With good reason, the prophet Jeremiah stated: “I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.”—Jeremiah 10:23.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Oh they did, its the same one that men still plead today, ignorance, God certainly didnt appear to give them much explanation considering He knew what they where going to do, We have all the info, we are certainly without excuse yet men till today plead ignorance. No excuse none.

While I agree that God knew that Adam and Eve could choose to disobey him since he created them with free will, that doesn't mean he knew which choice they would make. God looking into the future and seeing what will happen before it happens would mean God would be taking that choice out of Adam and Eve hands and God making it for them, so no God didn't know what choice they would make.

 

[mjrhealth]

so no God didn't know what choice they would make.

Oh man no wonder Christianity is such an embarrassment.

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Do you think God is an idiot, he is the Alpha and omega, the beginning and the end for a reason, he has seeing it all.

Mat_24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

All of it.

 

[mjrhealth]

I believe that both Adam and Eve were traitors because Satan

And so you condemn yourself with them, if they are traitors than God must be the biggest traitor of all, because he created them knowing what was to come, so you will have to tell him He must therefore punish Himself, good luck with that.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Oh man no wonder Christianity is such an embarrassment.

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Do you think God is an idiot, he is the Alpha and omega, the beginning and the end for a reason, he has seeing it all.

Mat_24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

All of it.

At Revelation 13: 8 the last part says, "from the foundation of the world," not "before the foundation of the world"" and Jesus links the phrase "from the foundation of the world" with Able not Adam. If you are saying that God knew Adam was going to sin before he created him then didn't God make that choice for Adam rather than Adam making that choice. God is infallible so if God Knew Adam was going to sin before he created him, then Adams free will could not prove God wrong God being infallible and all. God knew his creation potential of course, that why God warned Adam concerning the tree of good and evil, but God trusted Adam would be obedient to him because God loved him.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

And so you condemn yourself with them, if they are traitors than God must be the biggest traitor of all, because he created them knowing what was to come, so you will have to tell him He must therefore punish Himself, good luck with that.

I don't believe God knew Adam would sin. wouldn't God be responsible for everything that has happened since Adam was created, because if he knew Adam would sin then everything that happened since Adam sinned God would have seen before he created Adam, that would mean God knowingly and willfully put all the sin in motion when he began creating that we have seen from creation onward till today. So no I don't believe God knew Adam would sin. Sin and death wasn't part of God plan nor was it his will for sin and death to be in existence.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Is not the “witness” of righteousness the Son, Jesus Christ? I don’t deny what you say but sense the clever wording conceals what you really mean. Abel’s sacrifice testified of what was to come which was mercy through the Son. Cain’s did not please God because it demonstrated no testimony of mercy(the Son), instead Cain mudered his brother.

"By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh."

It was Abel's obedient faith in offering the acceptable sacrifice that "by/through which" he was righteous. And that obedient faith still speaks to us.

 

[Helen]

I disagree with this reasoning. Adam instead of eating the forbidden fruit when Eve offered he could have put the love of God first by calling upon God asking his wisdom instead of relying on his own.

But in that you miss God's "type"...he was the first Adam..he had to chose sin and choose his bride over himself. Love.
Jesus was the last Adam, He chose to take on the sin of His bride...he too chose His bride rather than save Himself.

 

[Helen]

I don't believe God knew Adam would sin. wouldn't God be responsible for everything that has happened since Adam was created, because if he knew Adam would sin then everything that happened since Adam sinned God would have seen before he created Adam, that would mean God knowingly and willfully put all the sin in motion when he began creating that we have seen from creation onward till today. So no I don't believe God knew Adam would sin. Sin and death wasn't part of God plan nor was it his will for sin and death to be in existence.

Come Come...so you think it took God by surprise!!
Then we would not be God would He..the all knowing, ever present GOD!!!

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Come Come...so you think it took God by surprise!!
Then we would not be God would He..the all knowing, ever present GOD!!!

God knows what he created, both Adam and Eve had free will so of course God knew They could obey or disobey, So God warned them of the consequence of disobedience, letting them know it carried the sentence of death. God wasn't surprised of their choice but he was saddened that they didn't love him enough to trust his wisdom.

 

[bbyrd009]

both Adam and Eve had free will

after they ate, yes

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

after they ate, yes

No God created them with free will
God has free will and God created Adam and Eve in his image. Part of God image is that he is a free moral person so God created Adam and Eve as free moral persons. Right from the start both Adam and Eve could choose what was right and obey God or they could choose what was wrong and disobey him.

 

[mjrhealth]

God knows what he created, both Adam and Eve had free will so of course God knew They could obey or disobey, So God warned them of the consequence of disobedience, letting them know it carried the sentence of death. God wasn't surprised of their choice but he was saddened that they didn't love him enough to trust his wisdom.

See know you are playing with words, just because they messed up doesnt men they dont love Him, there is a reason why deception is called just that, its deceiving, seems to be the truth but is not, that angle of light thingy. Like I said we are without excuse we have all that we need to know.

 

[mjrhealth]

No God created them with free will
God has free will and God created Adam and Eve in his image. Part of God image is that he is a free moral person so God created Adam and Eve as free moral persons. Right from the start both Adam and Eve could choose what was right and obey God or they could choose what was wrong and disobey him.

And how does one know what is wrong unless one eats for the tree of knowledge of good and evil. How does one know what is bad til ones tasted the bad fruit.

 

[Stranger]

At Revelation 13: 8 the last part says, "from the foundation of the world," not "before the foundation of the world"" and Jesus links the phrase "from the foundation of the world" with Able not Adam. If you are saying that God knew Adam was going to sin before he created him then didn't God make that choice for Adam rather than Adam making that choice. God is infallible so if God Knew Adam was going to sin before he created him, then Adams free will could not prove God wrong God being infallible and all. God knew his creation potential of course, that why God warned Adam concerning the tree of good and evil, but God trusted Adam would be obedient to him because God loved him.

Concerning (Luke 11:50-51), Christ is not saying the foundation of the world began with the killing of Abel. With Abel began the prophets of God whose blood was shed. The foundation of the world existed before Abel, before Adam, before satan.

(1 Peter 1:18-20) "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things...But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world...."

If you are saying God did not know Adam would sin before and when He created Him, you have a god who is not omniscient. He doesn't know all things. Now he just reacts to everything that has messed up his creation plan. How lame is that?

You say God trusted Adam because He loved him. But then you said earlier that Adam and Eve were traitors and not saved. God's love didn't make it very far did it? Which can only mean He doesn't love you or me either. Unless of course you are sinless now. Are you?

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

after they ate, yes

No God created them with free will

interesting, i don't think i've ever really confronted this perspective, although i guess i have heard it before.
Seems like you would run into trouble at "God has free will," as strange as that sounds at first, simply bc then we might have to wonder whether God would keep His end of the bargain as well as most ppl do.

At the same time, if FW is defined as "the freedom to break a law," it is hard to deny that A&E had that capacity. interesting.

But that is straight from the hip.
i guess we would prolly just devolve into a debate about what FW even is, and then start arguing over whether we even have it or not, etc. bleagh

 

[VictoryinJesus]

"By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh."

It was Abel's obedient faith in offering the acceptable sacrifice that "by/through which" he was righteous. And that obedient faith still speaks to us.

Here is where we differ Ernest T. Bass and that is okay. I can’t change your view and you can’t change mine. We will just have to differ. You said: “It was Abel’s obedient faith in offering the acceptable sacrifice that “by/through which” he was righteous. Again, it is not Abel’s righteousness but of the righteousness Abel’s gift spoke of. The word had to reveal to Abel ‘the way’.

You said “obedient faith” still speaks in us. You are right: but God has to reveal ‘the way’ and that way is Christ. Abel’s obedience spoke of the Lord. Our obedience in faith speaks of the Lord. The only problem or hesitants I have in what you present is that it seems, and I could be wrong, that you believe your obedience in faith speaks of you. Same as implying a person cannot be saved without baptism of literal water ...

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

See know you are playing with words, just because they messed up doesnt men they dont love Him, there is a reason why deception is called just that, its deceiving, seems to be the truth but is not, that angle of light thingy. Like I said we are without excuse we have all that we need to know.

I'm not playing with words, I saying that I believe if love for God had continued to grow as it should have, Eve could have said no to the serpent. Then Adam, who wasn't deceived, followed her in disobedience. Neither Adam or Eve were ignorant of the command concerning the forbidden fruit. They knew they were doing exactly what God had told them not to do. Adam and Eve act of disobedience was a willful act of disobedience. By asserting their independence, I believe Adam and Eve irreparably damaged their relationship with Jehovah God. Think about it, was Eve's sin inevitable? I don't think so. Put yourself in Eve's place. The serpents claim completely distorted what God said. How would you feel if a stranger charged someone you love and trust with dishonesty? Eve should have acted differently, showing disgust and indignation, even refusing to listen. After all, who was the serpent to question God's righteousness or his word. Out of respect for the principal of headship, Eve should have asked for advice before making any decision. But Eve trusted the Tempter's words, desiring to be her own judge of what was good and what was bad. Adam was not deceived so he chose to deliberately defy Jehovah God. His fear of being separated from his wife was evidently greater than his faith in God's ability to remedy the situation.

 

[Helen]

@BARNEY BRIGHT

So, I am interested...
How do YOU see the Plan of God unfolding then?
If you believe that Adam and Eve could have refused to eat that which was forbidden?

Do you think ,that according to you, because sin could not have entered through them, so they and all their descendants would have not eaten of the fruit and this world would now only be populated by sinless people ?
... and, Adam and Eve, as sinless would be looking like 30 year olds, but in fact 6000 years old plus....
And, in this senario where would Jesus fit in?
No redeemer would be necessary !!!

So you and I and everyone else would not exist.

looking forward to your reply.