Love

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

interesting, i don't think i've ever really confronted this perspective, although i guess i have heard it before.
Seems like you would run into trouble at "God has free will," as strange as that sounds at first, simply bc then we might have to wonder whether God would keep His end of the bargain as well as most ppl do.

At the same time, if FW is defined as "the freedom to break a law," it is hard to deny that A&E had that capacity. interesting.

But that is straight from the hip.
i guess we would prolly just devolve into a debate about what FW even is, and then start arguing over whether we even have it or not, etc. bleagh

John 17: 3 tells that God wants us to come to know him and his only Begotten Son right? Also 1 John 4:8 tells us that God is love. So if we come to know him that we see everything he does is motivated by love, then we will know that God is a person who will always keep his end of the bargain, don't you think?

 

[bbyrd009]

John 17: 3 tells that God wants us to come to know him and his only Begotten Son right? Also 1 John 4:8 tells us that God is love. So if we come to know him that we see everything he does is motivated by love, then we will know that God is a person who will always keep his end of the bargain, don't you think?

i am...divided now, in my thinking here, so i'll shoot you both trains of thought;
(ignoring for now the "God is a person" thing, which i don't too much like)

1) so much for God having FW i guess, huh ("always")
2) epidemics are a manifestation of love

 

[Helen]

I'm not playing with words, I saying that I believe if love for God had continued to grow as it should have, Eve could have said no to the serpent. Then Adam, who wasn't deceived, followed her in disobedience. Neither Adam or Eve were ignorant of the command concerning the forbidden fruit. They knew they were doing exactly what God had told them not to do. Adam and Eve act of disobedience was a willful act of disobedience.

I posted this earlier...but I don't want you to overlook it.
So I am reposting it again!

I am interested...
How do YOU see the Plan of God unfolding then?
If you believe that Adam and Eve could have refused to eat that which was forbidden?

Do you think ,that according to you, because sin could not have enteredthrough them, so they and all their descendants would have not eaten of the fruit and this world would now only be populated by sinless people ?
... and, Adam and Eve, as sinless would be looking like 30 year olds, but in fact 6000 years old plus....
And, in this senario where would Jesus fit in?
No redeemer would be necessary !!!

So you and I and everyone else would not exist.

looking forward to your reply.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

@BARNEY BRIGHT

So, I am interested...
How do YOU see the Plan of God unfolding then?
If you believe that Adam and Eve could have refused to eat that which was forbidden?

Do you think ,that according to you, because sin could not have entered through them, so they and all their descendants would have not eaten of the fruit and this world would now only be populated by sinless people ?
... and, Adam and Eve, as sinless would be looking like 30 year olds, but in fact 6000 years old plus....
And, in this senario where would Jesus fit in?
No redeemer would be necessary !!!

So you and I and everyone else would not exist.

looking forward to your reply.

Let me ask you a question. Do think any individual or individuals should love himself/herself/themselves more than God. I believe your statement and question slants more on love for humanity and not on God. Do you honestly believe that God will was for Adam and Eve to sin and die. That these six thousand plus years of history that we had is what God wanted or wants for us? The fact that God sent us a deliverer shows he wants us not to live like this. Yes if Adam and Eve had not been rebellious they would be still living and looking young and you and I wouldn't exist. It seems you want me to focus on love of myself first and other human beings and not God, when you make statements like, "so you and I and everyone else would not exist." Is that the way it should be, we love ourselves first. Let's also get something straight, I didn't say sin couldn't come through Adam and Eve, I said it was possible for them to be obedient. I believe we have free will, which means to me we have the ability to choose to be obedient or disobedient.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

i am...divided now, in my thinking here, so i'll shoot you both trains of thought;
(ignoring for now the "God is a person" thing, which i don't too much like)

1) so much for God having FW i guess, huh ("always")
2) epidemics are a manifestation of love

I have to admit I don't know what you are saying here, could you explain more please?

 

[Helen]

Let me ask you a question. Do think any individual or individuals should love himself/herself/themselves more than God. I believe your statement and question slants more on love for humanity and not on God. Do you honestly believe that God will was for Adam and Eve to sin and die. That these six thousand plus years of history that we had is what God wanted or wants for us? The fact that God sent us a deliverer shows he wants us not to live like this. Yes if Adam and Eve had not been rebellious they would be still living and looking young and you and I wouldn't exist. It seems you want me to focus on love of myself first and other human beings and not God, when you make statements like, "so you and I and everyone else would not exist." Is that the way it should be, we love ourselves first. Let's also get something straight, I didn't say sin couldn't come through Adam and Eve, I said it was possible for them to be obedient. I believe we have free will, which means to me we have the ability to choose to be obedient or disobedient.

So in other words you don't want to or can't, answer my questions.
You just turn it all around..and waffle.

Okay...that's fine.
Have a good afternoon.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Concerning (Luke 11:50-51), Christ is not saying the foundation of the world began with the killing of Abel. With Abel began the prophets of God whose blood was shed. The foundation of the world existed before Abel, before Adam, before satan.

(1 Peter 1:18-20) "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things...But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world...."

If you are saying God did not know Adam would sin before and when He created Him, you have a god who is not omniscient. He doesn't know all things. Now he just reacts to everything that has messed up his creation plan. How lame is that?

You say God trusted Adam because He loved him. But then you said earlier that Adam and Eve were traitors and not saved. God's love didn't make it very far did it? Which can only mean He doesn't love you or me either. Unless of course you are sinless now. Are you?

Stranger

The world of redeemable mankind had it's start with the birth of children to Adam and Eve; so Abel lived at "the foundation of the world." The greek word "ka•ta•bo•le'," literally means, " throwing down" and can mean,"throwing down of seed as in Heb. 11:11. By the expression, "the foundation of the world," Jesus referred to the birth of children to Adam and Eve, producing a world of mankind. While it's true there was a foundation the world of mankind when God created the first human pair, as is shown at HEB.4: 3,4, that pair thereafter forfeited their position as children of God.several references are made to "the scroll of life." It contains the names of all those who, because of their faith, are in line to receive the grant of everlasting life. It contains the names of Jehovah God servants "from the foundation of the world," that is, the world of redeemable mankind. So righteous Able is the first name written on "the scroll."

My God Jehovah is all knowing, it's just that you and I have a different definition of omniscient. Most people I talk to believe God sees every second of the future. Although God can see every second of the future if he wished, he chooses not to because he doesn't want to interfere with free will. I believe Jehovah God to be all knowing, but it has nothing to do with him having the ability to see the future. God knows what he created.

Yes both Adam and Eve became traitors when they disobeyed Jehovah God. Put yourself in Eve place the serpent claim completely distorted what God had said. How would you feel if a stranger charged someone you love and trust with dishonesty? Eve should have reacted differently, showing disgust and indignation, even refusing to listen. After all, who was the serpent to question God's righteousness and word. Adam who wasn't deceived faced a conflict of loyalties. Would he obey his creator, would Adam seek God's direction on what he was to do now? No, Adam didn't ask Jehovah God for direction, instead Adam deliberately chose to defy Jehovah God. Adam's fear of being separated from his wife was evidently greater than his faith in God ability to remedy the situation.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

And how does one know what is wrong unless one eats for the tree of knowledge of good and evil. How does one know what is bad til ones tasted the bad fruit.

If God wanted Adam and Eve to learn what was wrong by eating the forbidden fruit why did he command them not to eat the forbidden fruit?

We have faith in God and his wisdom when it comes to how he wishes us to live our lives. That is the person he has always been.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

So in other words you don't want to or can't, answer my questions.
You just turn it all around..and waffle.

Okay...that's fine.
Have a good afternoon.

No I answered the question, you just don't like the answer I gave you, and that's fine.

 

[bbyrd009]

If God wanted Adam and Eve to learn what was wrong by eating the forbidden fruit why did he command them not to eat the forbidden fruit?

most of our questions are completely moot or pointless, like asking about the wingspan of the stork that delivers babies or something, imo
this one is not
is God using reverse psychology on us? - Google Search
whoa

still thinking on the other thing up there, manana prolly
this will be that i guess

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

i am...divided now, in my thinking here, so i'll shoot you both trains of thought;
(ignoring for now the "God is a person" thing, which i don't too much like)

1) so much for God having FW i guess, huh ("always")
2) epidemics are a manifestation of love[/QUOTE

God is a person who always focused on love, that's who he is. Because he is that type person you can always depend on him to keep his end of the bargain.He chooses to be that type of person.

If by epidemics you mean disease being used as evidence of love, then yes God has used disease on those he loves to try and bring them to their senses, but remember that would not have been necessary if they had been faithful in the first place.

 

[Stranger]

The world of redeemable mankind had it's start with the birth of children to Adam and Eve; so Abel lived at "the foundation of the world." The greek word "ka•ta•bo•le'," literally means, " throwing down" and can mean,"throwing down of seed as in Heb. 11:11. By the expression, "the foundation of the world," Jesus referred to the birth of children to Adam and Eve, producing a world of mankind. While it's true there was a foundation the world of mankind when God created the first human pair, as is shown at HEB.4: 3,4, that pair thereafter forfeited their position as children of God.several references are made to "the scroll of life." It contains the names of all those who, because of their faith, are in line to receive the grant of everlasting life. It contains the names of Jehovah God servants "from the foundation of the world," that is, the world of redeemable mankind. So righteous Able is the first name written on "the scroll."

My God Jehovah is all knowing, it's just that you and I have a different definition of omniscient. Most people I talk to believe God sees every second of the future. Although God can see every second of the future if he wished, he chooses not to because he doesn't want to interfere with free will. I believe Jehovah God to be all knowing, but it has nothing to do with him having the ability to see the future. God knows what he created.

Yes both Adam and Eve became traitors when they disobeyed Jehovah God. Put yourself in Eve place the serpent claim completely distorted what God had said. How would you feel if a stranger charged someone you love and trust with dishonesty? Eve should have reacted differently, showing disgust and indignation, even refusing to listen. After all, who was the serpent to question God's righteousness and word. Adam who wasn't deceived faced a conflict of loyalties. Would he obey his creator, would Adam seek God's direction on what he was to do now? No, Adam didn't ask Jehovah God for direction, instead Adam deliberately chose to defy Jehovah God. Adam's fear of being separated from his wife was evidently greater than his faith in God ability to remedy the situation.

Nothing is said of the 'world of redeemable mankind'. The foundation of the world is what we are talking about. And I just showed you in (1 Peter 1:18-20) that Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world to be the Sacrifice.

God can't be all knowing if He didn't know what was going to happen. (Acts 15:18) "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world."

That Adam and Eve were traitors is your perverted opinion. Eve was deceived. Adam did what he did to save Eve, not to disobey, though he did disobey. I'm sure Eve is glad you weren't there. You would have been to holy to help out.

Stranger

 

[Helen]

@Stranger Good post and clearly said.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Nothing is said of the 'world of redeemable mankind'. The foundation of the world is what we are talking about. And I just showed you in (1 Peter 1:18-20) that Christ was foreordained before the foundation of the world to be the Sacrifice.

God can't be all knowing if He didn't know what was going to happen. (Acts 15:18) "Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world."

That Adam and Eve were traitors is your perverted opinion. Eve was deceived. Adam did what he did to save Eve, not to disobey, though he did disobey. I'm sure Eve is glad you weren't there. You would have been to holy to help out.

Stranger

I'm saying that Jesus being forordained before the foundation of the world means, he was ordained to be our savior after Adam and Eve sinned but before they had children. The promised seed wasn't mentioned in scripture until after Adam and Eve sinned not before. I know that many think that God predetermined from the beginning that Adam and Eve would sin and that the random sacrifice provided by means of Jesus Christ would be needed. You and many like you try to use 1 Peter 1: 18- 20 to prove that. It seems to me that you think we all are robots following a predetermined course by God.

Man was given free will, being created "in God's image." Free Will is indispensable if humans are to honor God out of love, not as robots with every movement determined beforehand. Love displayed by intelligent, free creatures would enable God to refute unjust accussations. God says at proverbs 27: 11: "Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is tauting me.
If God servants were predestined or programmed, so to speak, could not the genuineness of their love come into question? Also, would it not be contrary to God's impartiality for him to make a predetermined choice of persons destined to glory and happiness without taking their individual merits into account? In addition, if some receive such preferential treatment, while others to eternal punishment, this would hardly arouse sincere feelings of gratitude in the "elect," or "chosen ones."
Finally, Christ told his disciples to preach the gospel to all mankind. If God has already chosen the ones to be saved, would this not dampen the zeal Christian's show in evangelising? Would it not make the preaching of the Gospel pointless? Impartial love from God is the strongest force that can move men to love him in return. The scriptures Tell us that God doesn't wish anyone to perish, how can that be if as you say God decided before creating that it was his Will that some do perish? I believe that God didn't decide a savior for mankind until after Adam and Eve sinned, that doesn't mean that God isn't all knowing, it just means I disagree with the definition you have for omniscient.
Yes my opinion is that what God thinks on any situation, matters, its important. Maybe you and those who agree with you that think Adam not calling upon God in that situation doesn't matter, that it's of no importance, but I think it's more important than what any man thinks, including Adam. Adam should have asked God to help in his situation.

 

[Stranger]

I'm saying that Jesus being forordained before the foundation of the world means, he was ordained to be our savior after Adam and Eve sinned but before they had children. The promised seed wasn't mentioned in scripture until after Adam and Eve sinned not before. I know that many think that God predetermined from the beginning that Adam and Eve would sin and that the random sacrifice provided by means of Jesus Christ would be needed. You and many like you try to use 1 Peter 1: 18- 20 to prove that. It seems to me that you think we all are robots following a predetermined course by God.

Man was given free will, being created "in God's image." Free Will is indispensable if humans are to honor God out of love, not as robots with every movement determined beforehand. Love displayed by intelligent, free creatures would enable God to refute unjust accussations. God says at proverbs 27: 11: "Be wise, my son, and make my heart rejoice, that I may make a reply to him that is tauting me.
If God servants were predestined or programmed, so to speak, could not the genuineness of their love come into question? Also, would it not be contrary to God's impartiality for him to make a predetermined choice of persons destined to glory and happiness without taking their individual merits into account? In addition, if some receive such preferential treatment, while others to eternal punishment, this would hardly arouse sincere feelings of gratitude in the "elect," or "chosen ones."
Finally, Christ told his disciples to preach the gospel to all mankind. If God has already chosen the ones to be saved, would this not dampen the zeal Christian's show in evangelising? Would it not make the preaching of the Gospel pointless? Impartial love from God is the strongest force that can move men to love him in return. The scriptures Tell us that God doesn't wish anyone to perish, how can that be if as you say God decided before creating that it was his Will that some do perish? I believe that God didn't decide a savior for mankind until after Adam and Eve sinned, that doesn't mean that God isn't all knowing, it just means I disagree with the definition you have for omniscient.
Yes my opinion is that what God thinks on any situation, matters, its important. Maybe you and those who agree with you that think Adam not calling upon God in that situation doesn't matter, that it's of no importance, but I think it's more important than what any man thinks, including Adam. Adam should have asked God to help in his situation.

Yes, I know what you are saying. But Scripture disagrees with you. The foundation of the world was prior to any man in existence. And Jesus Christ was ordained to be the Sacrifice before the foundation of the world. We use ( 1 Peter 1:18-20) to prove that because that is what it does.

The will of man is not even the issue here. Why do you keep bringing it up?

Well, what do you do with (Acts 15:8)? It is pretty clear that God knows everything from beginning to end. Thus your definition of omniscience is wrong. Because you don't see God as all knowing.

Adam knew the will of God in the matter. Adam was not deceived. Remember? Do you understand that? And you still haven't offered anything as to what would have happened to Eve. But, it wouldn't matter I suppose since she was just a 'traitor'. Stupid.

Stranger

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Yes, I know what you are saying. But Scripture disagrees with you. The foundation of the world was prior to any man in existence. And Jesus Christ was ordained to be the Sacrifice before the foundation of the world. We use ( 1 Peter 1:18-20) to prove that because that is what it does.

The will of man is not even the issue here. Why do you keep bringing it up?

Well, what do you do with (Acts 15:8)? It is pretty clear that God knows everything from beginning to end. Thus your definition of omniscience is wrong. Because you don't see God as all knowing.

Adam knew the will of God in the matter. Adam was not deceived. Remember? Do you understand that? And you still haven't offered anything as to what would have happened to Eve. But, it wouldn't matter I suppose since she was just a 'traitor'. Stupid.

Stranger

I disagree with how many interpret 1 Peter 1: 18-20, you and I will not agree on this scripture.

You say Adam knew God will on this matter, which seems to me your saying God encourage the breaking of his law, because that's his will according to the way you say Adam handled matters.
I just can't agree that it's ok to break Gods law.

 

[mjrhealth]

I believe Adam and Eve irreparably damaged their relationship with Jehovah God. Think about it, was Eve's sin inevitable? I don't think so. Put yourself in Eve's place

Well actually it was, if it was not Jesus would never have had to be sacrificed, you are blaming the worlds problems on a man and a woman, when we are all responsible, and you are making God out to be a fool, He who created all things, You where born in a fleshy body for a purpose, so that God could restore your spirit back to Himself, if Eve was not going to sin He would have had no reason to do so,

 

[Stranger]

I disagree with how many interpret 1 Peter 1: 18-20, you and I will not agree on this scripture.

You say Adam knew God will on this matter, which seems to me your saying God encourage the breaking of his law, because that's his will according to the way you say Adam handled matters.
I just can't agree that it's ok to break Gods law.

I have not said it is ok to break God's Law. I am saying Adam did not eat of the apple because he wanted to rebel against God. He was not saying in his heart, as satan said in his, I will do as I please, I will be like the Most High. That is a false representation of Adam.

Adam could have called on God. He could have declared to God how Eve has sinned against Him and tempted him to do the same but he refused. He could have said, I need another woman as Eve is a sinner. He could have said that because the human race was not yet fallen. It fell in Adam, not Eve.

But he didn't want another woman, he wanted that one. And she was fallen. Adam was between a rock and a hard place. Remember that Adam knew God. He had a relationship with God in his sinless state. If God had come upon the scene with Adam unfallen and Eve fallen, he feared what would happen to Eve. So he ate knowingly to identify with Eve to give her hope in her fallen state. Because with him unfallen, there was no hope for her.

And in so doing, yes, Adam broke the commandment of God. But Adam's motive was not as you describe.

Understand also, next time you sin, if you do still sin, (sarcasm), perhaps Jesus our Last Adam, could turn to the Father and say, I have had enough of this person who keeps on sinning. Get him out of here and get me another one to take his place.

And, if God didn't love Adam and Eve, why not destroy them there and then? God can create another man just like He did Adam.

Stranger

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I have not said it is ok to break God's Law. I am saying Adam did not eat of the apple because he wanted to rebel against God. He was not saying in his heart, as satan said in his, I will do as I please, I will be like the Most High. That is a false representation of Adam.

Adam could have called on God. He could have declared to God how Eve has sinned against Him and tempted him to do the same but he refused. He could have said, I need another woman as Eve is a sinner. He could have said that because the human race was not yet fallen. It fell in Adam, not Eve.

But he didn't want another woman, he wanted that one. And she was fallen. Adam was between a rock and a hard place. Remember that Adam knew God. He had a relationship with God in his sinless state. If God had come upon the scene with Adam unfallen and Eve fallen, he feared what would happen to Eve. So he ate knowingly to identify with Eve to give her hope in her fallen state. Because with him unfallen, there was no hope for her.

And in so doing, yes, Adam broke the commandment of God. But Adam's motive was not as you describe.

Understand also, next time you sin, if you do still sin, (sarcasm), perhaps Jesus our Last Adam, could turn to the Father and say, I have had enough of this person who keeps on sinning. Get him out of here and get me another one to take his place.

And, if God didn't love Adam and Eve, why not destroy them there and then? God can create another man just like He did Adam.

Stranger

You say Adam had relationship with God and therefore knew him. Then you say because Adam knew God when it comes with the situation with Eve you say Adam feared what God would do. Why would Adam fear what God would do if he knew God and had such a loving relationship with him. If he knew God then he loved him so much that he trusted that however God handled it it would be loving and just but most of all in line with his Soverinty, but instead you are saying he feared what God would do, implying Jehovah God wouldn't handle the situation in a loving and just way.
The fact that you asked why God didn't destroy Adam and Eve on the spot then and there shows either you don't see what I see or maybe you do see what I see but you feel it's insignificant, unimportant. If the latter is true, then you and I are miles apart when it comes to how much we should love God.
What I see at the rebellion in the garden of Eden is first the serpent tells Eve that God is a liar when he tells her she will not die if she eats the forbidden fruit and not only that but says that God knows when she eats the forbidden fruit she will be like God knowing good and evil. By getting Eve to believe this about Jehovah God she's siding with the serpent agreeing that God isn't honest and trustworthy because he withholds information that is in best interest of mankind to have. By the serpent getting Eve to believe that she will be like God knowing good and evil, the serpent has convinced her that she and therefore mankind can rule themselves without God, since they will be like God knowing good and evil. All these statements that I'm telling you is showing that the serpent is attacking God's Soverinty his rulership, saying that God doesn't rule mankind in a loving just way, and that mankind can rule themselves in a loving just way without God. Yes God could have destroyed them immediately, but would that have answered these questions, the serpent had already convinced Eve, and it's most likely that the Angels we're watching this situation. Now God doesn't answer to anyone, but God is love and he doesn't want anymore of his intelligent creatures sucked in by the serpent deception so instead of destroying them he allow them to live long enough to bear children. Adam and Eve are sentence to death. By allowing them to bear children he is allowing the serpent and mankind to prove whether these questions are true or false. History has proven the serpent a liar, that mankind can't rule themselves lovingly and justly, that God doesn't lie and he always rules in a loving just way.

 

[Helen]

Nice try!