Wanting To Work

[mjrhealth]

..and why OSAS is sometimes referred to as 'cheap grace'.

All I can say, there is no such thing as cheap grace, no matter which side of teh fence you sit on.

Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

and that faith can take a beating, when people discover you actually believe God. Usually teh religious....

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

All I can say, there is no such thing as cheap grace, no matter which side of teh fence you sit on.

Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

and that faith can take a beating, when people discover you actually believe God. Usually teh religious....

It was not cheap to God for it coast Him the life of His Son. Yet men today do not want it to cost them anything. God showed favor to men, men do not want to return favor, men do not want to be conditionally held accountable for his sins. If OSAS were true where men are unconditionally saved, then there would be no need for Christ to die.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Consider also this tale of Simon with regard to this OSAS for he was named a baptized believer, but then it was determined later that he needed to repent:

"Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me." Acts 8:13-24

--Simon's being saved was CONDITIONAL upon his repenting of sins and receiving forgiveness from God.
--OSAS says salvation is UNCONDITIONAL implying man does not have to conditionally repent of his sins to be forgiven.
--If OSAS were true, then why the need for Christ to die for the sins of man if man can remain impenitent of his sins and be saved in his sins?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest, how do we stop believing when we've been sealed until redemption? Eph 1:13-14

The sealing refers to the group "Christian". Those that are in this group and conditionally faithfully remain in this group are sealed.
No such thing in the Bible as certain individuals being sealed unconditionally outside the group.
The group is sealed and will always be sealed whether you and I are in the group are not. So if we want to be sealed then we must conditionally become part of the group and faithfully remain in the group for salvation cannot be found outside the group.

Judas died before Pentecost and before the seal of God was placed on believers.

According to John 17 Judas was one given to Christ just like the other disciples and was held and kept by Christ just as the other disciples. Yet Judas fell away. Jesus could not say what He said in John 17:12 if never held Judas. No OSAS for Judas.

It's only adding to the cross if you believe that God sends believers to hell because of disobedience. Do you believe that, or do you believe God disciplines and sanctifies His children when they're disobedient?

Believing is obedience John 3:38 ASV. Those in hell therefore did not have a NT belief. They may have had a belief (James 2:19) like the devils or the chief rulers (John 12:42) but not an obedient, viable, saving belief as required by Christ. (John 8:31)

 

[amadeus]

Re BOLD...
That depends if you believe that 'your lost' is the kind of lost where they went to hell!!!
So do you really believe that when Achan sinned by taking and hiding the Babalonish garment...Josh 7
19 And Joshua said unto Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the Lord God of Israel, and make confession unto him; and tell me now what thou hast done; hide it not from me.
20 And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LordGod of Israel,"
24 And Joshua, and all Israel, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them unto the valley of Achor.
25 And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the Lord shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.
26 And they raised over him a great heap of stones unto this day. So the Lord turned from the fierceness of his anger. Wherefore the name of that place was called, The valley of Achor, unto this day."

So John, do you really believe that he , his kids wife, all went to hell???

So you must be a believer is :- Punishment now, and more punishment later at the great white throne!!

Personally I believe the Children of Israel perished from this life...and were not allowed to enter into the promised land.
I can't see how "not entering the promised land" = hell fire!!

Blessings...H ;)​

​

What I believe regarding children is that they receive whatever their parents receive if they die before they understand what they are doing and making their own decisions. This was so for the OT and I believe it is so for the NT. If only one parent is living for the God the child is with that parent. This is why it is so important for a parents to "train up a child in the way he should go". But what becomes of a child of two unbelieving parents while he is still an ignorant child? The child is dead as all are dead who never met Jesus. That is simply death. It simply means that they always remain dead. The "life" a person lives in this corruptible flesh is not Life. Everyone get a bit of that, but is it not really hell?

As to hell, what is that? Hell is where Jesus came when he came down in a veil of flesh and dwelt among us as a man. He certainly spent some time in hell and his hell is described some in the four Gospels. Having known something infinitely better, it was a terrible comedown for Jesus. Hell is where all of us live when we are not in the Spirit. Many people never choose to know anything but hell and they do not. It is the place where dead people dwell.

For the fire that burns us all up is God Himself. God hold back from people during the time they are allowed so they are not burned up too soon.

When it comes time to approach God, it would be as it was with the three Hebrews and the soldiers of Daniel 3 who threw them into the fire. The soldiers die when they approached too close. The Hebrews walked out of the fire unharmed with the ropes which bound them burned away.

The Promised Land for Israel was only a type of shadow of the place of Life which has been promised. Those who entered in [Caleb and Joshua] had an opportunity to receive real Life, but then so did some others. I say some others, because we see Moses who was denied access to the Promised Land meeting with Elijah and Jesus...So then as this last thing regarding Moses would indicate, I really don't know a better answer to your questions, do I?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.”” (John 19:30)
Jesus said in John 4:34, “… My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work.”
Then He says in John 17:4, “I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.”
Paul tells us in Galatians 3:13, ““Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us – for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree.””
Faithful to the end, Jesus fulfilled the will of the Father which was to be the sacrifice for mankind’s sin, and accept our judgment upon Himself.
The plan of redemption was finalized at the cross. Jesus said, “It is finished,” meaning His work was finished. He would be buried and three days later, He would rise from the grave as He prophesied. Now, any person can come to Him in simple child-like faith and be redeemed (saved) from sin and its judgment.
The Greek word “teleo” is translated, “It is finished.” This same word has been found on papyri receipts as proof the tax debt has been “paid in full.”
Wouldn’t it be interesting to wake up one morning and find that everywhere you went you would be told, “Everything has been paid in full, so you owe nothing?”
You go to purchase a car. You pick the one you want. You prepare to sign the paperwork, but are told, “That’s not necessary. It’s yours. It’s paid in full.”
You go out to eat and aren’t even allowed to leave a tip. Everything has been paid in full, including the tip.
You never receive an electric bill, or water/sewer bill. They just send you a receipt each month showing it as paid in full.
You go to your favorite sports event or maybe a movie, and everything is paid in full, even the popcorn and drink.
That is exactly what Jesus has done for all who will come to Him to be saved. All He asks of us is to believe, to trust Him. Does that mean we just believe that He is? No. The demons believe that much.
“You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.” (James 2:19)
We must recognize and admit we are a sinner; that He died and paid the penalty for our sins; through Him alone our sins are paid and we are a child of the Father once we trust Him at His Word. All of this will immediately and simultaneously be evident with true belief in Jesus Christ.
Why do so many keep wanting to work for something they can never pay? Jesus became the provision for our payment of sin. God will never accept our work. He will only accept the work of His Son. To suggest otherwise is to insult a holy God and reject His free offer of grace.
Is work ever involved? Absolutely work is involved, but only after we are saved through Him. The only work God will ever accept for salvation is that which came through Jesus Christ. Once we belong to Him, the Holy Spirit will indwell us and then we then can work for our Lord.
If we can’t work to get saved, why do we work after we’re saved? Is it to pay off our debt? The answer is a resounding “No!” The Lord Jesus Christ saves us by His grace and He keeps us by His grace. So why do we work as a believer? We work as a believer because we are His child and want to honor our Savior. We work as a believer out of gratitude because of His great mercy He has shown us. Most importantly, the Spirit of God works within us helping us grow as a Christian.
“Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.” (Philippians 2:12-13)
“And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.” (2 Corinthians 3:18)
On this earth, we may be the poorest person on the city streets, or in the valleys of the mountains, but in our home Jesus has built for us in Heaven we are co-heirs with Jesus Christ in the kingdom of God. We are a child of the living God; princes and princesses in the royal Heavenly family.
On this earth, you may be a reject of society, but if you know Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord you will be clothed in white robes in Heaven and judge angels. You will ride on the backs of white horses alongside Jesus when He comes to judge the world at the end of the Tribulation. You will reign with Him in the Millennium and spend eternity with Him in the Father’s house. You will live in eternity with never a want and where sin is no more. You will see God face to face and experience the love that emanates from Him.
Yes, “It is finished.” Jesus accomplished all the Father gave Him to do. It is, “Paid in full.” There is nothing we can add. To even try is an insult.

WRONG.
We read in the Epistle of James's that we are justified by our works - and NOT by faith (belief) alone.

True faith = Belief + Works.
One without the other does not equal true faith.

Works alone get us nowhere - just as belief alone is worthless.
Works are an essential component of faith - ant not something that is separate from it..

 

[Heb 13:8]

The sealing refers to the group "Christian". Those that are in this group and conditionally faithfully remain in this group are sealed. No such thing in the Bible as certain individuals being sealed unconditionally outside the group. The group is sealed and will always be sealed whether you and I are in the group are not. So if we want to be sealed then we must conditionally become part of the group and faithfully remain in the group for salvation cannot be found outside the group.

Ernest, the seal is for those who have believed and confessed, Rom 10:9. The Gospel is simple, and yet you make it so hard. "When you believed (past tense)" you were marked in him with a seal. How long does this seal last, until redemption!

Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

According to John 17 Judas was one given to Christ just like the other disciples and was held and kept by Christ just as the other disciples. Yet Judas fell away. Jesus could not say what He said in John 17:12 if never held Judas. No OSAS for Judas.

They "followed" Christ and walked with him but the seal of God didn't exist yet. Judas turned out to be a false prophet. None has been lost EXCEPT Judas.

John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Those in hell therefore did not have a NT belief.

Those in hell are one like the Pharisees mocking the cross, hoping their religion gets them there. Jesus will say to them I never knew you. I never had a relationship with you. The NT belief is not works salvation, it's based upon Grace. Christ died for all sin, past, present and future. God bless

Rom 8:35, 38-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest, the seal is for those who have believed and confessed, Rom 10:9. The Gospel is simple, and yet you make it so hard. "When you believed (past tense)" you were marked in him with a seal. How long does this seal last, until redemption!

Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Paul is writing to Christians in Ephesus and it is Christians being the ones that are sealed. Therefore one must obey the gospel and become part of the group Christian for salvation is in the group that is sealed. One can become unfaithful and fall from the group yet the group remains sealed/saved but not the individual that fell from the group.

There is no such thing in the NT of an individual being unconditionally sealed apart from the group.

They "followed" Christ and walked with him but the seal of God didn't exist yet. Judas turned out to be a false prophet. None has been lost EXCEPT Judas.

John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Judas was a disciple of Christ and was an holy Apostle just as the others chosen to be holy Apostles. Judas was one given to Christ by God that Christ kept (John 17), just as the other 11. If Judas was not in a saved state, no reason to think the other 11 were saved either.

In Matthew 10 is the commission Christ gave to His 12 Apostles, including Judas (verse 4), and we see that Judas was:
1) given supernatural power by the Holy Spirit v1,8
2) made a minister of the gospel v7, 13,14
3) referred to as a sheep not a wolf v16
4) was inspired by the Holy Spirit v19,20
5) God is said to be the Father of Judas v20,29
6) receiving Judas was the same as receiving Christ v40

These things would not be true of a never saved reprobate. Judas problem was that he did not endure Matthew 10:22

Those in hell are one like the Pharisees mocking the cross, hoping their religion gets them there. Jesus will say to them I never knew you. I never had a relationship with you. The NT belief is not works salvation, it's based upon Grace. Christ died for all sin, past, present and future. God bless

Rom 8:35, 38-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The ones in Matthew 7:23 that Christ never knew were the ones who were doing their own self-righeous will and did not do the will of the Father, v21.

Romans 8:35-39 is a list of things external to the Christian that cannot bring separation. But the Christian can separate himself from the love God. Therefore Jude commanded "Keep yourselves in the love of God" Jude 1:21. The external forces listed in Romans 8 do not have the power to make the Christian be lost against his will, but sin will separate one from God (Isaiah 59:2), "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23) see also 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. So sin is not on the list in Romans 8.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Paul is writing to Christians in Ephesus and it is Christians being the ones that are sealed. Therefore one must obey the gospel and become part of the group Christian for salvation is in the group that is sealed. One can become unfaithful and fall from the group yet the group remains sealed/saved but not the individual that fell from the group.

There is no such thing in the NT of an individual being unconditionally sealed apart from the group.

No Ernest, the reason we are sealed is because of belief, and this seal lasts until redemption. Read it again, and notice the OSAS words...

1. included in Christ
2. heard
3. believed
4. promised Holy Spirit
5. deposit guaranteeing
6. until (eis) the redemption

Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until (eis) the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

eis: to or into (indicating the point reached or entered, of place, time, fig. purpose, result)
Original Word: εἰς
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: eis
Phonetic Spelling: (ice)
Short Definition: into, in, among, till, for
Definition: into, in, unto, to, upon, towards, for, among.

Judas was a disciple of Christ and was an holy Apostle just as the others chosen to be holy Apostles. Judas was one given to Christ by God that Christ kept (John 17), just as the other 11. If Judas was not in a saved state, no reason to think the other 11 were saved either.

In Matthew 10 is the commission Christ gave to His 12 Apostles, including Judas (verse 4), and we see that Judas was:
1) given supernatural power by the Holy Spirit v1,8
2) made a minister of the gospel v7, 13,14
3) referred to as a sheep not a wolf v16
4) was inspired by the Holy Spirit v19,20
5) God is said to be the Father of Judas v20,29
6) receiving Judas was the same as receiving Christ v40

These things would not be true of a never saved reprobate. Judas problem was that he did not endure Matthew 10:22

You're still missing the mark Ernest. Whether Judas believed at one point and then stopped believing has no relevance here. The subject at hand is Judas. Judas lived and died before Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came down like fire. This is when the seal of God was placed on believers.

Acts 2:1-4 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

The ones in Matthew 7:23 that Christ never knew were the ones who were doing their own self-righeous will and did not do the will of the Father, v21.

Right, but what you don't understand is that the sheep that are doing the will of the Father are believers in Christ and the wolves are nonbelievers, those who haven't come to faith in Jesus Christ yet. Have I not been preaching Grace salvation to you all this time??? Wake up Ernest!

Romans 8:35-39 is a list of things external to the Christian that cannot bring separation. But the Christian can separate himself from the love God. Therefore Jude commanded "Keep yourselves in the love of God" Jude 1:21. The external forces listed in Romans 8 do not have the power to make the Christian be lost against his will, but sin will separate one from God (Isaiah 59:2), "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23) see also 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. So sin is not on the list in Romans 8.

Ernest, do Christians follow the devil when they're not in God's will? Demons and death ITSELF will never separate us from God. Read again.

Rom 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:35-39 is a list of things external to the Christian that cannot bring separation

Is being "in Christ" external or internal? Genesis 1:1 (NIV)

Rom 8:39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God bless.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

No Ernest, the reason we are sealed is because of belief, and this seal lasts until redemption. Read it again, and notice the OSAS words...

1. included in Christ
2. heard
3. believed
4. promised Holy Spirit
5. deposit guaranteeing
6. until (eis) the redemption

Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until (eis) the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

eis: to or into (indicating the point reached or entered, of place, time, fig. purpose, result)
Original Word: εἰς
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: eis
Phonetic Spelling: (ice)
Short Definition: into, in, among, till, for
Definition: into, in, unto, to, upon, towards, for, among.

---No individual is unconditionally sealed or sealed by belief only.

---it is the group called Christian that is sealed. Therefore one must CONDITIONALLY become a member of this sealed group by belief repentance confession and baptism and remain faithfully in this sealed group. For if the Christian becoems unfaithful he falls from the sealed group. The group is still sealed but not the individual who fell from it.

--again, there is not a single example under the NT gospel of a individual that was unconditionally sealed and could never be unsealed no matter what the individual does.

You're still missing the mark Ernest. Whether Judas believed at one point and then stopped believing has no relevance here. The subject at hand is Judas. Judas lived and died before Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came down like fire. This is when the seal of God was placed on believers.

Acts 2:1-4 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

You are trying to look over the fact Judas was in a saved state as a disciple/Apostle of Christ with God as his Father and he fell from that saved state making him proof there is no OSAS. In Matthew 10 Judas as other 11 Apostles had been given miraculous powers so he had to have an indwelling of the HS in order to perform miracles and speak by inspiration.

Right, but what you don't understand is that the sheep that are doing the will of the Father are believers in Christ and the wolves are nonbelievers, those who haven't come to faith in Jesus Christ yet. Have I not been preaching Grace salvation to you all this time??? Wake up Ernest!

One is not a sheep until he first hears and follows Christ John 10:28. Therefore it is not possible one is first a sheep BEFORE he hears and follows Christ.

In the context of Mt 7 what separated the ones who enter the kingdom from he ones that do not enter is "doing the will of the Father" and not an arbitrary, unconditional choice of God that was made apart from man's volition and the word.

Ernest, do Christians follow the devil when they're not in God's will? Demons and death ITSELF will never separate us from God. Read again.

Rom 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.



Is being "in Christ" external or internal? Genesis 1:1 (NIV)

Rom 8:39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God bless.

Again, Paul listed in Rom 8 things that are EXTERNAL to the Christian things that cannot separate the Christian from God's love apart from the Christians will. Hence Jude commands Christians to "keep yourselves in the love of God' which command would make no sense if being separated from God's love is impossible for the Christian. Jude also makes it the Christian's responsibility to keep himself in God's love and not that God would unconditionally keep the Christian in His love no matter what the Christian does. Again, Paul did not list sin for sin does separate one from God which is a lost state And no man has the power to keep sin from separating one from God. Many verses attest to the fact sin separates one from God, leaves one lost, dead spiritually. The wages of sin is death and that is true for anyone and everyone that sins, no exceptions.

 

[Helen]

I guess we are all free to choose and believe what we believe the scriptures to be saying.

I still believe that the sacrifice of the perfect Lamb did what God had designed from before the foundation of the world.

All the rest is fruit, not some law to 'complete our salvation.'

This is one of those fruitless discussions where none of us will move from what we believe GOD has revealed to us.
The proof will be shown in the last days. :)

 

[Heb 13:8]

it is the group called Christian that is sealed.

Ernest, there are only two types of people in the world; born again believers and nonbelievers. To become a part of this group called "Christian" as you state, one must believe and confess, Rom 10:9. The Gospel is simple, yet everyone is trying to save themselves in these end times.

A - Admit you're a sinner
B - Believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead
C - Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord

You are trying to look over the fact Judas was in a saved state as a disciple/Apostle of Christ with God as his Father and he fell from that saved state making him proof there is no OSAS.

A saved state under OT Grace or a saved state under the NT seal of God? You still don't get it.

One is not a sheep until he first hears and follows Christ John 10:28. Therefore it is not possible one is first a sheep BEFORE he hears and follows Christ.

I've noticed you haven't mentioned the word "believe" in your post. Any reason why?

Jhn 10:25-30 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

In the context of Mt 7 what separated the ones who enter the kingdom from he ones that do not enter is "doing the will of the Father" and not an arbitrary, unconditional choice of God that was made apart from man's volition and the word.

And the one doing the will of the Father are born again Christians who have come to faith in Jesus Christ. Have you come to faith in Christ yet Ernest, or are you just here for the avatars and bright colors?

Again, Paul listed in Rom 8 things that are EXTERNAL to the Christian things

So the indwelling Holy Spirit isn't internal for a believer? If you believe that then you need to come to Christ now and accept His free gift. Time is short Ernest. Your eternal state is not a game.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest, there are only two types of people in the world; born again believers and nonbelievers. To become a part of this group called "Christian" as you state, one must believe and confess, Rom 10:9. The Gospel is simple, yet everyone is trying to save themselves in these end times.

A - Admit you're a sinner
B - Believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead
C - Confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord

There is just ONE GROUP that is sealed and that group is called "Christian". Therefore the INDIVIDUAL must CONDITIONALLY become a part of the group and faithfully remain in this group if he is to be sealed unto the day of redemption. OSAS is wrong in claiming salvation/being sealed is UNconditional.

There is no such thing in the NT of any INDIVIDUAL being UNconditionally sealed apart from the GROUP.


[quote+Heb 13:8]
A saved state under OT Grace or a saved state under the NT seal of God? You still don't get it.[/quote]

A saved state is being CONDITIONALLY IN THE GROUP called Christian and faithfully remaining in that group. Again, you cannot show me one example of any INDIVIDUAL who was UNconditionally sealed APART FROM THE GROUP.

Being sealed is a certainty...for those that are CONDITIONALLY in and faithfully remain in the GROUP. If the Christian becomes unfaithful and falls way, then he has fell from the sealed GROUP does not remain unconditionally sealed as an individual APART from the sealed GROUP.

I've noticed you haven't mentioned the word "believe" in your post. Any reason why?

Jhn 10:25-30 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

My point of John 10:27 is that Jesus QUALIFIED who His sheep are, that being those who have a present tense hearing and following. An ongoing sustained belief would be included in the following.

John 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

Both pronouns "them" and "they" therefore refer to only those that have CONDITIONALLY remained faithfully having maintained a present tense hearing following(belief) of Christ.

Any that quit hearing and following Christ are NOT included in the "they" and "them".

And the one doing the will of the Father are born again Christians who have come to faith in Jesus Christ. Have you come to faith in Christ yet Ernest, or are you just here for the avatars and bright colors?

Yes, those that do the will of the Father are Christians. It conditionally takes both doing the will of the Father to become a Christian and remain one. One that does NOT do the will of the Father cannot ever even become a Christian but remain lost in their disobedience, unrighteousness.

1 John 3:10 the one who continues to NOT do righteousness continues to NOT be of God. Therefore one must work righteousness (Acts 10:35) to be of God/ accepted with God.

So the indwelling Holy Spirit isn't internal for a believer? If you believe that then you need to come to Christ now and accept His free gift. Time is short Ernest. Your eternal state is not a game.

Paul did not mention an indwelling of the HS in Romans 8:35-39. He did list things that are EXTERNAL to the Christian that cannot cause the Christian to be separated from God's love against the Christians will. Sin CAN AND DOES separate one from God. Again, why would Jude command Christians to "keep yourselves in the love of God" if being separated from God's love were impossible for the Christian. And why put the responsibility upon the Christian to "keep himself" in God's love? Obviously Christians have a role in their own salvation and maintaining that salvation by CONDITIONALLY remaining in the sealed group. Paul nor Jude say anything about God UNconditionally keeping Christians in His love against their will.

 

[Heb 13:8]

There is just ONE GROUP that is sealed and that group is called "Christian".

Yup, and how do you become a Christian Ernest? By believing and confessing, Rom 10:9. Everyone has a choice.

Being sealed is a certainty...for those that are CONDITIONALLY in and faithfully remain in the GROUP.

No, we are sealed until redemption because of what Jesus Christ did on the cross, not because of anything we do. Your filthy rags and boasting is the broad road to hell Ernest.

Isa 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Eph 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

My point of John 10:27 is that Jesus QUALIFIED who His sheep are, that being those who have a present tense hearing and following. An ongoing sustained belief would be included in the following.

John 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

And what about that eternal life and testimony. Are you calling God a liar?

Heb 6:18 by two unchangeable things.........

Heb 6:16-20 People swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged. 19We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.

1 Jhn 5:9-14 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

One that does NOT do the will of the Father cannot ever even become a Christian but remain lost in their disobedience, unrighteousness.

1 John 3:10 the one who continues to NOT do righteousness continues to NOT be of God. Therefore one must work righteousness (Acts 10:35) to be of God/ accepted with God.

Rom 5:16 Again, the gift is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment that followed one sin brought condemnation, but the gift that followed many trespasses brought justification.

Rom 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

Rom 8:33-34 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God--and He is interceding for us.

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

Paul did not mention an indwelling of the HS in Romans 8:35-39.

Ernest, is not the HS love??

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

Rom 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

Rom 8:39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God bless

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yup, and how do you become a Christian Ernest? By believing and confessing, Rom 10:9. Everyone has a choice.

One becomes a Christian by hearing Romans 10:17, believing John 8:24; repenting Luke 13:3 confessing Matthew 10:32-33 and submitting to baptism Mark 16:16. Then once one becomes a member of the sealed group, he must remain faithful (Revelation 2:10; 1 Corinthians 4:1-2) as to not fall away from the group.

No, we are sealed until redemption because of what Jesus Christ did on the cross, not because of anything we do. Your filthy rags and boasting is the broad road to hell Ernest.

Isa 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Eph 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Only those that are faithful and remain in the group will be the ones sealed. Those that become unfaithful and fall from the group are no longer sealed. Again there is no example under the NT gospel of any individual becoming nor remaining sealed unconditionally apart from the group.

Isa 64:4 refers to Israel at a time when they were in iniquity "and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" and "for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities". Since it refers to Israel at a time when they were in iniquity it cannot be used in a universal sense to include each and every man. For Isaiah 64:5 says "Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved." There are those that work righteousness who are not in iniquity that God helps/meets/entreats and does not treat their righteousness as filthy rags.

Peter told the Gentiles in Acts 10:35 "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." Again, God accepts those that work His righteousness and that righteousness is not as filthy rags before God.

Ephesians 2:9 the "not of works" refers to works of merit and not obedience in working God's righteousness. The Bible does not contradict itself.

And what about that eternal life and testimony. Are you calling God a liar?

Heb 6:18 by two unchangeable things.........

Heb 6:16-20 People swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged. 19We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.

1 Jhn 5:9-14 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

There are verses they make eternal life a present possession. But there are other verses that show eternal life is not to be had in this life:

Mark 10:30 "But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life." Eternal life is in the world to come, not now in this life.

1 John 2:25 "And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life." Eternal life here is said to be a "promise" and a promise is something not yet realized for if it were realized it would no longer be something promised but a reality.

How to reconcile the verses that say one has eternal life now to the verses that say one possesses eternal life in the future, in promise?

God cannot lie, so God's makes a promise those promises are so certain that in some places in the Bible those promises are spoken as if they have already come about when they have not.

Examples:

In Joshua 6:2 "And the LORD said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valour." God told Joshua He had "given into thine hand Jericho" yet Israel was still encamped outside the walls of the city. The point of God being if Israel would do as God says it was a certainty they would have the city, so certain God spoke as if they already possessed it.

Genesis 17:5 "Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee."

Here God tells Abraham "I have made thee" yet Issac through whom this would e fulfilled was not yet even born. Again, God's promises are so certain they are spoken of as already have taken place when they haven't. Paul quotes Gen 17:5 in Romans 4:17 saying "(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were."

God "calleth those things which not be as though they were"....some times eternal life, though it not be now, it is sometimes called as being a current possession due to God's certainty in His promises. One can currently possess the promise of eternal life but that promise can be forfeited if one does not remain faithful to Christ.

1 Cor 15:52-54 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

In our bodies in this worldly, fleshly life we are mortals and corruptible. When the Christian physically dies and puts on immortality and incorruption then he can possess eternal life. I do not see corruptible, mortals being able to possess something as eternal life in our temporary fleshly state.

Rom 5:16 Again, the gift is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment that followed one sin brought condemnation, but the gift that followed many trespasses brought justification.

Rom 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

Rom 8:33-34 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God--and He is interceding for us.

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.

These verses are written to those who are already Christians, those that are CONDITIONALLY in the group that is "IN CHRIST" Romans 8:1. As long as the Christian conditionally remains faithfully in Christ, in the group, in the body of Christ then he shall be saved.

Ernest, is not the HS love??

Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

Rom 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.

Rom 8:39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God bless

Again,
--- Paul mentions things that are external to the Christian that cannot cause the Christian to be separated from God's love against the will of the Christian.

--why would Jude command Christians to keep yourselves in the love of God if it were impossible for the Christian to be separated?

--sin does separate anyone from God.

 

[Heb 13:8]

There is not a single verse that says the sinner is saved when he is literally indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Boy, you're really showing your fruits Ernest.

Jhn 14:16-18 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

These verses are written to those who are already Christians, those that are CONDITIONALLY in the group that is "IN CHRIST" Romans 8:1. As long as the Christian conditionally remains faithfully in Christ, in the group, in the body of Christ then he shall be saved.

Right, and always remember to keep yourself saved with H2O and religious stuff because Jesus couldn't do that on the cross. We're done talking. God bless.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Boy, you're really showing your fruits Ernest.

Jhn 14:16-18 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.



Right, and always remember to keep yourself saved with H2O and religious stuff because Jesus couldn't do that on the cross. We're done talking. God bless.

Context---Jesus is speaking to His Apostles promising THEM the Comforter, no one else.

John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."
John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come"

From the above verses we get:
--the world cannot receive the Comforter
--the Comforter would dwell in and be with the Apostles
--the Comforter would teach the Apostles all things
--the Comforter would bring all things to the Apostles remembrance whatsoever Christ said
--the Comforter would guide the Apostles to all truth
--the Comforter would show the Apostles things to come

By being given the Comforter, the Apostles were Divinely inspired in receiving 'all things' to teach, all things to their remembrance that Christ said and guiding them to 'all truth' and prophetically showing them things to come. No one today is inspired as the Apostles were by the Comforter. Many today can CLAIM they have the Comforter but they do not have remembrance of all things Christ said, they do not have all truth for they contradict the Bible and each other in what they teach/believe.

John 15:26,27 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning."

The Comforter would testify of Christ and the Apostles shall bear witness of Christ. No one today can be a first hand eyewitness of what Christ said and did when Christ was on earth as the Apostles could be. So the promise of the Comforter is not a promise made to all Christians for again, all Christians cannot give a first hand eyewitness testimony of all Christ said and did. This "bearing witness" of Christ was given to the Apostles "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full." 1 John 1:1-4. It was the Apostles responsibility to write down all that Christ said and did as they were inspired by the Comforter Who would teach them all things, bring all things to their remembrance whatsoever Christ said and show them things to come. Again all done by INSPIRATION of the Comforter. No one today is inspired, no one today can be a first hand eyewitness of Christ and write down all He said and did by inspiration as the Apostles.


==========================


Jesus death on the cross made salvation to all them that obey Christ (Hebrews 5:9) by doing what Christ said (Luke 6:46) in believing (John 8:24) repenting (Luke 13:3) confession (Matthew 10:32-33) submitting to baptism (Mark 16:15-16). Even though Christ tasted death for every man (Hebrews 2:9) does not mean every man will UNconditonally be saved. Just the men that conditionally obey Christ take advantage of the salvation Christ made available on His cross.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Context---Jesus is speaking to His Apostles promising THEM the Comforter, no one else.

No Ernest, the comforter is the Holy Spirit. The indwelling Holy Spirit has been present in believers for the past 2000 yrs since Pentecost. To receive the indwelling Holy Spirit one must believe and confess, Rom 10:9.

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jesus death on the cross made salvation to all them that obey Christ (Hebrews 5:9) by doing what Christ said (Luke 6:46) in believing (John 8:24) repenting (Luke 13:3) confession (Matthew 10:32-33) submitting to baptism (Mark 16:15-16). Even though Christ tasted death for every man (Hebrews 2:9) does not mean every man will UNconditonally be saved. Just the men that conditionally obey Christ take advantage of the salvation Christ made available on His cross.

Ok, I guess we'll see who's right when we die then. God bless.

 

[Helen]

No Ernest, the comforter is the Holy Spirit. The indwelling Holy Spirit has been present in believers for the past 2000 yrs since Pentecost. To receive the indwelling Holy Spirit one must believe and confess, Rom 10:9.

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Another Amen...Good post.