Who sins?

[APAK]

@amadeus

You know I do look back in my past and there is one time in my life for nearly a year that stands out as a real failure to my God, my savior and my family. It was when I was already in a slow race to the bottom where I stopped acknowledging God and Christ in my life; although I never gave up my faith. I was under personal pressure and I tried my way to regain my worth and life again. I just took my savior for granted and shoved him in the corner at that time. I had no time to talk, I was under pressure and I needed to fix it all, myself. I needed to act, alone, I thought.

I tried to play god then and fell as sharp as the sharpest decline in the stock market. What happened, what possessed me? I was not myself.

This ordeal tested me beyond my understanding and then I began to awaken my faith in God and I wanted to get back to ‘normalcy’ as soon as I slid, and I even slid further until it was over. I tried to gain stability and I could not get the peace I wanted because I was still offending my family. I never lost faith in God, although my sins were highlighted to Jesus in bright lights. Not until I reconciled with God and others, on God’s terms, did I realize he executed a rescue plan for me and my family. He never let me ‘go.’ I realize he really loves me in my many tears of both sorrow and then joy. He was in love with me and I in him through the spirit of my savior.

Your life today amadeus is filled with Christ, I am guessing yes! You ‘came back’ from your previous experience(s) because of you, or really was it of God? I would bet the latter being born-again myself, as I know you are also from your writings.

Based on this surface analysis, you were genuinely baptized in Christ and you have his life in you, regardless on the measure of faith you have today. I believer you can never be ex-communicated by God once you accepted the free gift of life on God’s terms. He accepted and chose you.

Now there may be a chance you were never a true believer many years ago and now you are. I would not know this. I do know that if you have the spirit today, you have salvation and you are not to dwell on sin even those you still consider grave or very pivotal in your life.

Remember God does not convict a believer of sins, he corrects them. He wants you growing to perfection.

I must be honest and admit that my ordeal I spoke of above took me some years to understand and dismiss in it completely out of my mind because I’m BORN AGAIN and it has spiritual meaning. The old man and the world still wants the credit, and both are dead. God knows you better than you know you, same goes for me.


That Hebrew passage Heb 6:4-6, I believe that may bother you is really about a fence sitter that TASTED the spirit of God in their lives and heard his words and about eternal life. They never committed or ATE from the vine. These folks were taste testers of the Spirit and the word and eventually didn’t buy into the spiritual product of life that it offered. They were still under a death sentence and went back into their natural state or ‘fell away’ from what the spirit had to offer. They chose again the spirit of the world and self - soul mates of death!


(Heb 6:4) For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
(Heb 6:5) who tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
(Heb 6:6) but then fell away- it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (ALL NEV)


Bless you brother, and I love your words as a man of God



APAK

 

[Taken]

Long ago when my mind was better I found an answer, not with my mind but with my heart regarding the double minded being, which is man, the follower of Jesus. My mind simply helps me go through the details and explain, but that ability is certainly diminished due to my declining mental function.

The double minded consists of the leftover, the old man, and the new or inner man come into being when we really meet the Master [born again or from above?]. You say that we can never go back into death once we have found or have been given Life, but that is where we seemingly disagree. I respect you too much from what I read here on this forum to push hard against you.

No, I personally have never gone completely back into death, but I have approached it at times. Once for about 10 years I slowly or perhaps even reversed directions.

Impossible to go back? I won't say nay, but the good thing is that once having really tasted or seen or heard what God has for me, going back would be such a very foolish thing for me or for anyone to do. But who says that man is not foolish? Consider what Adam, the first one according to scripture, had. One simple requirement to keep what he had and go on to more by eating of the Tree of Life, but he messed up. Are we so much better than he?

My perspective to your point...

"Found Jesus"... a strange, but often used term IMO.

Jesus is not Lost.

Historically Gods Word was given them (Hebrews/Jews) Through The Law.
Violation of Any Law was equal To having Committed a SIN.

IOW - Any Act of man Against God was a Sin and of man Against man, (not authorized By God,) was Accounted a SIN.

A remedy was given them....
1) For Sin Against God.
...and a Positive Consequence For a man who used His Remedy
....and a Negative Consequence for a man who did not use His Remedy.

Moving forward in Time concerning the Jews.

A NEW OPTION given the Jews.
This Option is made possible By and Through the Word of God Appearing In The Flesh As a man.

He accomplishes what an Earthly man could not.
He Offers His Accomplishments To Be Acceptable FOR an Earthly Mans SINS To Once and For All Be Forgiven.

This offer is Provided To;
Jews
Gentile's
The Whole World

It is Every Individuals OWN personal Choice...
TO;
Believe
Accept Gods Gift of Faith For ones Belief
Trust
Continue
Walk Away
Or
Choose to heartfully surrender their their LIFE ...To Jesus

In other Words; An individual has a period of Time between:
Hearing...
Wondering...
Learning...
Believing...
Denying...
Following...
Not bothering...
Listening again...

All of these things Are Natural behaviors of a man Learning pretty much Anything New.

What is Paramount IS IF and WHEN a man Chooses To heartfully Surrender His Life TO the Lord.
A man IS no longer On His OWN, Regarding His Option For Forever Spiritual Life.

THIS repeatedly is the CRUX of confusion, debate, philosophies, teaching, among men.

Scripture reveals the Truth...
Once a man HAS heartfully surrendered his Life To the Lord....Become Converted...
IT IS Permanent.
Forever that mans Spiritual Life Is Accomplished AND KEPT preserved By The Power of God.
Never Again can that man "Not Believe IN The Fullness of God...ie
Thee Lord God Almighty.

Can that man....
Have conflicts with other men ? Yes
Trespass against other men? Yes
Make dumb choices? Yes
Have a dull effort relationship with God? Yes

And what about such things?

Are they SINS? No
Do they jeopardize the mans Salvation? No

Well what do those things do?
1)
They make the man SUBJECT TO the Negative Consequences THAT mankind Prounces.

Cheat people
LIE to people...
Steal from people...

you get the burden of the negative consequences From People.
Gal 6:5

And while one is busy being crummy toward other men...they are missing out on opportunities To Glorify Gods Name.

And what is the Consequence for Glorifying Gods Name?
Blessings while a man still remains on Earth in "his flesh blood life"
And...
"Blessings/Treasures" being "stored up" FOR the man....For him to RECEIVE After his own Bodily Glorification.
Matt 6:19
Matt 6:20

Once a man HAS RECEIVED the Lords Conversion... It is Forever.
John 6:58
John14:16

No man can UNDO the Lords Conversion of a man.
John 10:28

Your testimony of drifting ... IPAK'S testimony of drifting...had not one iota effect ON jeopardizing your ALREADY accomplished Spiritually Received Salvation.

It did however Effect you missing out on blessing you could have received And burdened you with the Consequences between you and other people.

Men WHO... have received a Conversion .... Yet for their remaining Earthly lifetime have conflicts between themselves and other men...continually suffer the consequences pronounced By men....and are not storing up treasures in heaven....

With the POINT being....Even They MAINTAIN a place In The Lords Kingdom!

It will not be a High Position yet... their Position to BE included IN His Kingdom IS secure.
Matt 5:19

See also..insite of the least..
Matt 11:11

Paramount Point....
A mans Conversion Accomplished By and Through Christ the Lord IS FOREVER no matter what.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[amadeus]

Your life today amadeus is filled with Christ, I am guessing yes! You ‘came back’ from your previous experience(s) because of you, or really was it of God? I would bet the latter being born-again myself, as I know you are also from your writings.

Oh without a doubt it was God, but I had to make some choices. After about 10 years out, I want back in. I had not attending a church service in years and had stopped reading my Bible during the same period. Then I wanted to be accepted. I prayed with no response. I attended church services and worshipped and prayer with nothing. I refused to say He had finally rejected me. After each effort made by attending a service in spite of my best efforts and my promises, I would miss services again until again I would try. This happened repeatedly. Then He did let me know and I came but the chastisement was a severe one which God brought us [my wife and I] out of with a miracle our flesh could see clearly. I won't detail the miracle now but some on the forum have certainly heard about it before.

Based on this surface analysis, you were genuinely baptized in Christ and you have his life in you, regardless on the measure of faith you have today. I believer you can never be ex-communicated by God once you accepted the free gift of life on God’s terms. He accepted and chose you.

Now there may be a chance you were never a true believer many years ago and now you are. I would not know this. I do know that if you have the spirit today, you have salvation and you are not to dwell on sin even those you still consider grave or very pivotal in your life.

I was a believer when I was a Catholic. I remember my water baptism at the age of 6 years [1949]. It was the first time I remember knowing that there was a God. I remember receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost when I was 32 years old and at the time [1976] I for the first time in my life purchased my own Bible and began to read it. It was at this time that God saved my marriage. My wife and I just celebrated our 46th anniversary last month.

Remember God does not convict a believer of sins, he corrects them. He wants you growing to perfection.

If by perfection you mean a complete overcomer of all that stands between him and God, I agree. I don't really consider perfection to equal to being such a final overcomer. There are perfect people in the eyes of God at a given moment who still need some work because they still have some time.

I must be honest and admit that my ordeal I spoke of above took me some years to understand and dismiss in it completely out of my mind because I’m BORN AGAIN and it has spiritual meaning. The old man and the world still wants the credit, and both are dead. God knows you better than you know you, same goes for me.

That Hebrew passage Heb 6:4-6, I believe that may bother you is really about a fence sitter that TASTED the spirit of God in their lives and heard his words and about eternal life. They never committed or ATE from the vine. These folks were taste testers of the Spirit and the word and eventually didn’t buy into the spiritual product of life that it offered. They were still under a death sentence and went back into their natural state or ‘fell away’ from what the spirit had to offer. They chose again the spirit of the world and self - soul mates of death!

(Heb 6:4) For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
(Heb 6:5) who tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
(Heb 6:6) but then fell away- it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (ALL NEV)


Bless you brother, and I love your words as a man of God
APAK

As I at least intimated in my previous post, I do believe that some are already finally saved and will never lose that salvation. The difference between you and me on this is that I believe that not everyone who is so finally saved realizes that it is so. God, of course, knows, but for some of us part of our growth toward God requires that we do not presume that we already have hold of the final goal and that it is ours even though we have some time left here.

Can a person lose or walk away from his salvation? I believe that he can but he does not know if he will. God knows even that.

Some people by knowing that they could walk away would do so. By believing that they cannot, they do not.

 

[amadeus]

My perspective to your point...

"Found Jesus"... a strange, but often used term IMO.

Jesus is not Lost.

I first heard about that decades ago. Unfortunately communication between people is an imprecise thing and sometimes I and perhaps others are not as accurate in our usage as we could be. Some people use it better or worse than others... and this does not even consider the ones where native human languages are different.

Scripture reveals the Truth...
Once a man HAS heartfully surrendered his Life To the Lord....Become Converted...
IT IS Permanent.
Forever that mans Spiritual Life Is Accomplished AND KEPT preserved By The Power of God.
Never Again can that man "Not Believe IN The Fullness of God...ie
Thee Lord God Almighty.
….

Once a man HAS RECEIVED the Lords Conversion... It is Forever.
John 6:58
John14:16

No man can UNDO the Lords Conversion of a man.
John 10:28

Your testimony of drifting ... IPAK'S testimony of drifting...had not one iota effect ON jeopardizing your ALREADY accomplished Spiritually Received Salvation.

If you have read my response to APAK you understand where I am on this. There is a point in our growth toward God at which there may be no return possible, but the reason is because of how far we have progressed with God. Even the man who has progressed with God may not know how far he has really come although of course he is able to look back and see some significant differences. Significant differences do not necessarily mean irreversible.

I cannot help remembering Adam and Eve in the garden and what they already had before they disobeyed God that first time. Why was it possible for them to disobey God but it is not impossible for us to disobey Him today?

It did however Effect you missing out on blessing you could have received And burdened you with the Consequences between you and other people.

Men WHO... have received a Conversion .... Yet for their remaining Earthly lifetime have conflicts between themselves and other men...continually suffer the consequences pronounced By men....and are not storing up treasures in heaven....

And conversion is the thing, isn't it? Could not be that men have different definitions in themselves of what a conversion is? We are converted in part when we first meet the Master and acknowledge Him and what we know of Him. When is a person completely converted from what he was as an unrepentant sinner to the one who has overcome all of the world like Jesus did?

This may be like the baby conceived within the mother. Still not born; still not mature. There can be a miscarriage or a child already born can physically die prior to attaining school age or even before learning to communicate by word of mouth. Many things can happen during the growth period to delay or even stop the attainment of maturity, which we call adulthood. Is there no spiritual correspondence to this with new man?

With the POINT being....Even They MAINTAIN a place In The Lords Kingdom!

It will not be a High Position yet... their Position to BE included IN His Kingdom IS secure.
Matt 5:19

See also..insite of the least..
Matt 11:11

Paramount Point....
A mans Conversion Accomplished By and Through Christ the Lord IS FOREVER no matter what.

God Bless,
Taken

God bless you my friend. Thank you for your input on this.

 

[Taken]

I first heard about that decades ago.

Excellent! same for myself.

Even the man who has progressed with God may not know how far he has really come although of course he is able to look back and see some significant differences

.

.

Certainly a man can assess himself, And I personally think that is the purpose for our being tested that we will reflect on where we stand.

However Jesus gives insight on a faithful mans standing....according TO His assessment.
Matt 11:11
Luke 7:28

Sort of makes our own self assessments trivial.

Why was it possible for them to disobey God?

A natural inquisitive Brain.
We don't Know All things.

but it is not impossible for us to disobey Him today?

But it IS possible...not only possible but Likely....

Once converted...it is ones Spiritual Change one can never lose....He Changes our Heart, and gives us a new spirit, a new Truth and His Power, that will remain forever.

He doesn't give us a new brain...it is our job to make our mind SUBJECT TO our hearts thoughts....that is, I would say rarely an instant change accomplished by men.
While the consequence Per God, is about receiving blessings or losing out on blessings.....

God provides a method for one man to help another man see the error of his ways....

And some men thrive on wagging their tongue and pointing their finger at others with accusations and judgements.

And conversion is the thing, isn't it? Could not be that men have different definitions in themselves of what a conversion is?

Absolutely.

When is a person completely converted from what he was as an unrepentant sinner to the one who has overcome all of the world like Jesus did?

According To God?
When a natural living man has believed, repented, and heartfully given his life to the Lord.

According To man?
According To numerous ideas and understandings of men.

Is there no spiritual correspondence to this with new man?

A NEW man Is that FOREVER.
FOREVER he has 24-7 access To The Lord.
His OWN choosing to build or have a dull relationship is via his own choosing.

Like the saying ...
When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.... I think that is how it works with a Converted man and the Lord.
Encouraged to foster a constant relationship with the Lord...Yes
FORCED? No.

Thank you.
God Bless,
Taken

 

[amadeus]

@Taken

Amadeus said:
Even the man who has progressed with God may not know how far he has really come although of course he is able to look back and see some significant differences

Taken said
Certainly a man can assess himself, And I personally think that is the purpose for our being tested that we will reflect on where we stand.

However Jesus gives insight on a faithful mans standing....according TO His assessment.
Matt 11:11
Luke 7:28

Sort of makes our own self assessments trivial.

I don't usually do a lot of looking back, but sometimes it can be a good thing if only to remind us what has really changed. It also helps to bring home that God is still working on us if we are allowing it. The end is not yet.

Amadeus said:
Why was it possible for them to disobey God?

Taken said:
A natural inquisitive Brain.
We don't Know All things.

Of course my point was that as Adam and Eve could make the wrong choice, so can we.

Amadeus said:

but it is not impossible for us to disobey Him today?

Taken said:
But it IS possible...not only possible but Likely....

Once converted...it is ones Spiritual Change one can never lose....He Changes our Heart, and gives us a new spirit, a new Truth and His Power, that will remain forever.

He doesn't give us a new brain...it is our job to make our mind SUBJECT TO our hearts thoughts....that is, I would say rarely an instant change accomplished by men.
While the consequence Per God, is about receiving blessings or losing out on blessings.....
God provides a method for one man to help another man see the error of his ways....
And some men thrive on wagging their tongue and pointing their finger at others with accusations and judgements.

Amadeus said:
And conversion is the thing, isn't it? Could not be that men have different definitions in themselves of what a conversion is?

Taken said:
Absolutely.

 

[amadeus]

@Taken
Amadeus said:
When is a person completely converted from what he was as an unrepentant sinner to the one who has overcome all of the world like Jesus did?

Taken said:
According To God?
When a natural living man has believed, repented, and heartfully given his life to the Lord.
According To man?
According To numerous ideas and understandings of men.

Once converted, but again the meaning here is different for people with different understandings of what conversion is.

Amadeus said:
Is there no spiritual correspondence to this with new man?

Taken said:
A NEW man Is that FOREVER.
FOREVER he has 24-7 access To The Lord.
His OWN choosing to build or have a dull relationship is via his own choosing.
Like the saying ...
When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.... I think that is how it works with a Converted man and the Lord.
Encouraged to foster a constant relationship with the Lord...Yes
FORCED? No.

Amadeus said:
While the correspondence is not a perfect one there is one between as between a type or shadow and the real thing.

 

[APAK]

@amadeus . @Taken ..

Amadeus:
You asked..."When is a person completely converted from what he was as an unrepentant sinner to the one who has overcome all of the world like Jesus did?"

That is a question for St. Paul, he was so obsessed with it. First it depends on the person and their measure of faith and growth. Everyone begins as a new convert with the regenerated spirit beginning to walk the sanctification walk to perfection and ‘full’ conversion. We never reach 100% while we are in the flesh. Even Paul was not 'fully' perfected although he was 'racing' as in a race to become 100%.


In comparison, Jesus first did not have a sin nature because his Father’s will made him, not by the will of a corrupt and sinful man. Jesus was like the first Adam in this regard, with the exception that Jesus’ Father (his spirit) remained inside Jesus from birth. Adam never has this configuration, even before is disobedience. Jesus was still capable or tempted as any human being, although he had no natural propensity to do so.


BL: You and I will not be ‘fully’ converted until we shed our corrupt human nature and flesh to immortality at the return of Jesus. We may get 50-60 percent converted, say. Jesus was fully 100 % converted to perfection in spirit by the time he became aware of his Father’s presence in his life, and his mind was fully developed, or aware. Jesus then possessed the ‘full’ measure of the power of God, after his baptism.


When Taken was speaking of a new man is forever, that is true. And now it is up to us to cooperate and do the will of God as we walk in holiness. We work with God, as a team as Jesus and God were one, in perfection and fully converted 100 %. We as a new man still stumble and our faith growth chart does not necessarily reveal a pure x2 curve or an ever increasing one increasing upwards without some human ‘drops’ along the way in time.


Yes, as Taken said we as a new man have a 24/7 access to Jesus. It is a beautiful and miraculous relationship. Jesus is our high priest and IN THE SPIRIT we have virtually (depended on out level of perfection) the same direct access to God as Christ. Where under the law, folks had to have a physical sequential, co-between priest to God, and they never knew of God’s voice in their spirit, with some exceptions as we read the OT. Jesus is in the Father and we are in Christ. Our communication is spiritual and always in the ON state…it will never be turned off. Amen! And this relationship and communication ‘grows’ or becomes clearer while we are earth in the flesh. We mature in love to full perfection and conversion.

Bless you both,

APAK

 

[Taken]

@amadeus

We never reach 100% while we are in the flesh. Even Paul was not 'fully' perfected although he was 'racing' as in a race to become 100%.

When Taken was speaking of a new man is forever, that is true. And now it is up to us to cooperate and do the will of God as we walk in holiness. We work with God, as a team as Jesus and God were one, in perfection and fully converted 100 %. We as a new man still stumble and our faith growth chart does not necessarily reveal a pure x2 curve or an ever increasing one increasing upwards without some human ‘drops’ along the way in time.

I would add...briefly... THAT is a very very in depth study. Hitting the highlights...
1) our greatest cooperation with God, is Effected While we ARE still IN SIN.
Meaning...it is our choosing and giving our life to the Lord To RECEIVE His Conversion.
2) our most reasonable service To Him is to Present our whole Cleansed, restored, Quickened, sanctified, holy, body, soul, spirit ... unto Him on the day He calls His Church up To Him. Rom 12:1
3) and everything in between is for the THAT individual to be a participant with the Lord in overcoming all Darkness IN AND Of the whole World.

Yes, as Taken said we as a new man have a 24/7 access to Jesus.

Yes. Adding...it IS by having such access, He Reveals, Teaches, Shows a converted man HOW to BE an active participant with Him to accomplish Overcoming the whole world of Darkness.

The KEY is for a Converted man to continually actually Access the Lord.....LIKE YOU know more than men literally think about and DO access their phone, computer, tv, Trucks, ATM, ....

It is a beautiful and miraculous relationship. Jesus is our high priest and IN THE SPIRIT we have virtually (depended on out level of perfection) the same direct access to God as Christ. Where under the law, folks had to have a physical sequential, co-between priest to God, and they never knew of God’s voice in their spirit, with some exceptions as we read the OT. Jesus is in the Father and we are in Christ. Our communication is spiritual and always in the ON state…it will never be turned off. Amen! And this relationship and communication ‘grows’ or becomes clearer while we are earth in the flesh. We mature in love to full perfection and conversion.

Amen.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[amadeus]

You asked..."When is a person completely converted from what he was as an unrepentant sinner to the one who has overcome all of the world like Jesus did?"

That is a question for St. Paul, he was so obsessed with it. First it depends on the person and their measure of faith and growth. Everyone begins as a new convert with the regenerated spirit beginning to walk the sanctification walk to perfection and ‘full’ conversion. We never reach 100% while we are in the flesh. Even Paul was not 'fully' perfected although he was 'racing' as in a race to become 100%.

I like your answer except for the assumption or presumption that we can never attain the 100% while in the flesh... in other words your final sentence.


What is 100%? It is all of something. When we speak of the things of man, there may be a 100% mark of something as for instance a student takes a quiz consisting of 100 questions and answers every question correctly . He has attained 100%. We could not so limit God so again, what is 100% with regard to God? See my understanding of it later...


In the things of God the limit I would believe is God’s limit which really is no limit. So our limit is what? If we aim for God and allow Him to work the only limit is how much do we allow Him to work or how much do we limit Him. This is what the psalmist indicated here:


“Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.” Psalm 78:41


They cut off God’s help or even opposed it and as a result missed out on what they could have had.


Has God offered only so much and nothing more or is it up to us how much we receive or attain?

In comparison, Jesus first did not have a sin nature because his Father’s will made him, not by the will of a corrupt and sinful man. Jesus was like the first Adam in this regard, with the exception that Jesus’ Father (his spirit) remained inside Jesus from birth. Adam never has this configuration, even before is disobedience. Jesus was still capable or tempted as any human being, although he had no natural propensity to do so.

Jesus then overcame the world:

“These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.” John 16:33


What world did he overcome? It was certainly not planet Earth, for surely there is no inherent or instrinsic sin in the planet. He did not overcome all of the sinful of people on the planet which we can confirm by simply looking around us today.


What he overcame was what we see him overcoming when he was tempted by the tempter.


But first you say Jesus had no sin nature. I am not sure what that is, but I have no doubt that he was tempted by the devil in these verses and elsewhere. In other words as a man Jesus could have sinned if he has chosen to do so. To me if there is no possibility of sin, there is no temptation:


“And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.” Matt 4:3-10

His temptations were as ours as we can read elsewhere [ Heb 4:15] and the following verse seems to state them all clearly:

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.” I John 2:16

These temptations were in the world, the world I would venture to say that Jesus overcame. He overcame his own little world of flesh even as we supposed to overcome our little world. He, being clean and having all of, or being all of, the Word of God certainly could, but can you and I? We needed help. First we needed to be cleaned up. Jesus made it possible for us to be clean. Then on the day of Pentecost the pouring of the Holy Spirit made it possible for us to overcome our little world and keep ourselves clean.

We needed what He had, the Word of God in us. How else? But what unclean or dead vessel could contain the Word of God. Thus the Way was made. We simply need to take advantage and make use of it...

BL: You and I will not be ‘fully’ converted until we shed our corrupt human nature and flesh to immortality at the return of Jesus. We may get 50-60 percent converted, say. Jesus was fully 100 % converted to perfection in spirit by the time he became aware of his Father’s presence in his life, and his mind was fully developed, or aware. Jesus then possessed the ‘full’ measure of the power of God, after his baptism.

You are back to the percentages again. What I see is that the flesh is corruptible for any man born of woman which included Jesus. He was corruptible but since he never sinned he was never corrupted. All of the rest of us were born corrupted. Corrupted in this case I believe means dead. Adam and Eve did that for us and when we were born carnally that was our condition before God: dead. Maybe that is what you are calling a sin nature? I call it what Genesis calls it: dead.


“But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” Gen 2:17


They did eat and they were then dead. We, being born to dead parents were likewise dead. Every one born to woman was dead until Jesus came. The life for the flesh was in the blood [red] as per Levitcus 17:11 That was carnal life based on carnal blood and is not really Life at all but...


”...I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.” John 10:10


What Jesus brought was what it was not possible for anyone to have since Adam and Eve died in the Garden and were put out of the Garden denying them access to the Tree of Life. Then they conceived their dead offspring.


This Life that Jesus brought like the life described in Lev 17:11 is in the blood, but it is not the red carnal blood that was spilled from his veins. It was the Holy Spirit which is the real Blood poured out as promised here:


“And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.

The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.” Joel 2:28-32

 

[amadeus]

@APAK

They would be and have been delivered from death to Life. Jesus opened the Way to Life and we see it beginning to happen in Acts chapter 2:


“And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.


And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.


And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” Acts 2:2-4




Before that day who had Life? Who was able to always speak the Word of God?




People were touched or used by God, but they remained dead until Life became available to whosoever laid hold it and were filled that that Life giving Spirit, the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost, the Real Blood that gave Real Life:




“[God] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.” II Cor 3:6



​

 

[amadeus]

@APAK

When Taken was speaking of a new man is forever, that is true. And now it is up to us to cooperate and do the will of God as we walk in holiness. We work with God, as a team as Jesus and God were one, in perfection and fully converted 100 %. We as a new man still stumble and our faith growth chart does not necessarily reveal a pure x2 curve or an ever increasing one increasing upwards without some human ‘drops’ along the way in time.

There is that 100% again. Let me say that when the old man is completely and finally dead [no more sin, nothing more in the world to overcome, no more men’s ways within us to tempt us] then we will be 100% of something very good as God initially made in all “very good” [Gen 1:31]. When we have overcome it all as Jesus did, then we will be 100% of something that will never die.


The three Hebrews in Daniel chapter 3 are a type of shadow of this. The soldiers who threw them into the fire died. The ropes that bound the Hebrews was burn up. The Hebrews and their clothing did not even smell of burning. This is where we want to be because...


For our God is a consuming fire.” Heb 12:29

Yes, as Taken said we as a new man have a 24/7 access to Jesus. It is a beautiful and miraculous relationship. Jesus is our high priest and IN THE SPIRIT we have virtually (depended on out level of perfection) the same direct access to God as Christ. Where under the law, folks had to have a physical sequential, co-between priest to God, and they never knew of God’s voice in their spirit, with some exceptions as we read the OT. Jesus is in the Father and we are in Christ. Our communication is spiritual and always in the ON state…it will never be turned off. Amen! And this relationship and communication ‘grows’ or becomes clearer while we are earth in the flesh. We mature in love to full perfection and conversion.




Bless you both,




APAK

And bless you as well my friend!


​

 

[APAK]

@amadeus.....

Amadeus, I was just going to reply to you with a restatement of the concept of Christian perfection and the walk in the spirit once more and why we cannot attain it in this body and why it will always be less than 100%. Then I just went online, and I just found this article. I will give you the link below. It is everything I wrote already and more.

So, here is this SDA fellow that really has his stuff together on this subject. I always get pleasantly surprised when I find someone else believing the same way as myself. It again validates my thoughts and beliefs this time through this man’s writings.

The title of his article is: How Perfect Is "Perfect" or Is Christian Perfection Possible?

Author: Edward Heppenstall

https://adventistbiblicalresearch.o...fect-perfect-or-christian-perfection-possible

There is just one small point that I did not agree with in the article, the first subtitle called ‘the sinner’s last hope’ thus calling a Christian a sinner which is not biblical. I’m sure he meant that we all still sin, although scripture is specific on this title who is called a ‘sinner.’ Fortunately, it does not disturb the effect of the article, which I agree with.

This one paragraph of his sums up what I previously wrote to you on this subject.

“The Christian must walk continually in the Spirit. Never in this life will the Christian arrive at the place where he can dispense with the counteracting power of Christ against the sinful tendency in his life. Only through the continual, day by day operation of the Holy Spirit is our sinful nature counteracted. The sinful nature is not eradicated until the day of the resurrection, until this "mortal shall have put on immortality." The Christian learns to live in the sphere of the Spirit, not in the sphere of the flesh. The believer is never beyond the reach of temptation or the possibility of sinning. But in Christ he is brought into a position of victory over all known sin. Sin no longer has dominion over him.”



TRUE or ABSOLUTE perfection or FULL conversion = 100% sinlessness (in our new glorified bodies)

Bless you brother, have peace and rest in Christ always,


APAK

 

[amadeus]

@amadeus.....

Amadeus, I was just going to reply to you with a restatement of the concept of Christian perfection and the walk in the spirit once more and why we cannot attain it in this body and why it will always be less than 100%. Then I just went online, and I just found this article. I will give you the link below. It is everything I wrote already and more.

So, here is this SDA fellow that really has his stuff together on this subject. I always get pleasantly surprised when I find someone else believing the same way as myself. It again validates my thoughts and beliefs this time through this man’s writings.

The title of his article is: How Perfect Is "Perfect" or Is Christian Perfection Possible?

Author: Edward Heppenstall

https://adventistbiblicalresearch.o...fect-perfect-or-christian-perfection-possible

There is just one small point that I did not agree with in the article, the first subtitle called ‘the sinner’s last hope’ thus calling a Christian a sinner which is not biblical. I’m sure he meant that we all still sin, although scripture is specific on this title who is called a ‘sinner.’ Fortunately, it does not disturb the effect of the article, which I agree with.

This one paragraph of his sums up what I previously wrote to you on this subject.

“The Christian must walk continually in the Spirit. Never in this life will the Christian arrive at the place where he can dispense with the counteracting power of Christ against the sinful tendency in his life. Only through the continual, day by day operation of the Holy Spirit is our sinful nature counteracted. The sinful nature is not eradicated until the day of the resurrection, until this "mortal shall have put on immortality." The Christian learns to live in the sphere of the Spirit, not in the sphere of the flesh. The believer is never beyond the reach of temptation or the possibility of sinning. But in Christ he is brought into a position of victory over all known sin. Sin no longer has dominion over him.”

TRUE or ABSOLUTE perfection or FULL conversion = 100% sinlessness (in our new glorified bodies)

Bless you brother, have peace and rest in Christ always,

APAK

I skimmed the actual article but slowed down to read this part more carefully as it focused on one problem I certainly recognized.

"One of the hindrances to living the Christian life successfully is failure to understand what the Bible teaches on the nature of sin and perfection. A grave misapprehension lies at the root of much of the false teaching on this subject. The Bible, in applying the term "perfection" to believers, never means "sinlessness."

What I have underlined is close. For me in the scriptures as I long have understood them: Perfection does not equal sinlessness.

A sinless person such as Jesus is perfect, but perfect man like Job is not necessarily sinless.

The problem I have in discussion with people is that they too often use their own definitions of some my words even though if they read carefully they would see that my meaning is different. We can have lengthy posts like these but still not really understand one another because of this. I guess at times I do the same thing when reading what they write and nothing good results because we do not understand each other. Thus communication is frequently a problem.

I still may not agree with you on every point, [or some things I simply may not fully understand], but we are not far enough apart to quibble. The truth is that on some of the areas where I might disagree I remain uncertain. I am too tired now of the lengthy writings and readings to continue. [This especially applies to the readings and re-readings which often require a lot of concentration for me to hopefully understand.] Thank you for your kindness and help. If you would be willing I might engage you again at another time on other details if I am able to see that it would be edifying.

My search is never ended for more from God, but I cannot set the guidelines or limits on this. God must do it. When I delve into something He has not definitely put before me I often get into trouble with myself and/or with Him. Sometimes I am curious for myself instead of really hungry for the truth. He usually lets me know before I spend too much time going off on a tangent from the direction He wants me traveling. I hope this is clear to you.

 

[APAK]

I skimmed the actual article but slowed down to read this part more carefully as it focused on one problem I certainly recognized.

"One of the hindrances to living the Christian life successfully is failure to understand what the Bible teaches on the nature of sin and perfection. A grave misapprehension lies at the root of much of the false teaching on this subject. The Bible, in applying the term "perfection" to believers, never means "sinlessness."

What I have underlined is close. For me in the scriptures as I long have understood them: Perfection does not equal sinlessness.

A sinless person such as Jesus is perfect, but perfect man like Job is not necessarily sinless.

The problem I have in discussion with people is that they too often use their own definitions of some my words even though if they read carefully they would see that my meaning is different. We can have lengthy posts like these but still not really understand one another because of this. I guess at times I do the same thing when reading what they write and nothing good results because we do not understand each other. Thus communication is frequently a problem.

I still may not agree with you on every point, [or some things I simply may not fully understand], but we are not far enough apart to quibble. The truth is that on some of the areas where I might disagree I remain uncertain. I am too tired now of the lengthy writings and readings to continue. [This especially applies to the readings and re-readings which often require a lot of concentration for me to hopefully understand.] Thank you for your kindness and help. If you would be willing I might engage you again at another time on other details if I am able to see that it would be edifying.

My search is never ended for more from God, but I cannot set the guidelines or limits on this. God must do it. When I delve into something He has not definitely put before me I often get into trouble with myself and/or with Him. Sometimes I am curious for myself instead of really hungry for the truth. He usually lets me know before I spend too much time going off on a tangent from the direction He wants me traveling. I hope this is clear to you.

I do understand your search for more truth. And I sometimes get involved in some scripture and then I find I've suddenly been driven to some other area. I don't understand fully how this works and will never know here on this earth, although I do know that the spirit of God is directing traffic for me. It is very exciting and I am learning because I ask the spirit I want to know more.

Please do challenge me in other topics in the future. It can only help both of us, its a win-win.

Thanks for listening and giving me your open feedback.

Stay tuned and healthy amadeus.

APAK

 

[amadeus]

I do understand your search for more truth. And I sometimes get involved in some scripture and then I find I've suddenly been driven to some other area. I don't understand fully how this works and will never know here on this earth, although I do know that the spirit of God is directing traffic for me. It is very exciting and I am learning because I ask the spirit I want to know more.

Please do challenge me in other topics in the future. It can only help both of us, its a win-win.

Thanks for listening and giving me your open feedback.

Stay tuned and healthy amadeus.

APAK

Give God the glory my friend!

 

[Taken]

"One of the hindrances to living the Christian life successfully is failure to understand what the Bible teaches on the nature of sin and perfection. A grave misapprehension lies at the root of much of the false teaching on this subject. The Bible, in applying the term "perfection" to believers, never means "sinlessness."

What I have underlined is close. For me in the scriptures as I long have understood them: Perfection does not equal sinlessness.

A sinless person such as Jesus is perfect, but perfect man like Job is not necessarily sinless.

From my perspective...in order....in brief.

Every thing called mankind is A form/ called a Body, from dust Made by God.

The BODY/form, is wonderfully made...with numerous parts, designed to function sufficiently in its own habitat, created by God, for mankind called Dry land, which is called Earth.

Little dilemma... This Body can not function without Life.

Solution: God who is Life, blows, Life, via His BREATH, into a thing He has made CALLED a soul.
This thing called a soul Becomes Living, and this Living soul is then via God, via His BREATH, blown into a Body/ form, and the Body becomes Living.

The BODY becomes call a living man, also was called a Living soul, also called by names, titles, descriptions.

The Life a body receives from God IN A thing called a soul....causes the Body to QUICKEN, which means, the wonderfully made body's intricate parts are now able to function.

Some of the most intricate parts of the Body Is:
1) it has its own life..called Blood...that maintains the life of the Body. As long as the Blood flows, the heart beats, and the body remains naturally alive.
2) it has its own seeds. It can plant its own seeds and the result will be God will form another bodily form, give it a soul and repeat the process.
3) when the Blood stops flowing, the heart stops beating, the Form/ body Dies, is buried, and the living soul, departs out of the dying Body.

The SOUL, the Life In the soul, belongs To God, regardless of which man it was in, regardless of BY what Name or title it was called.

The departed Living soul after departure from a dead body, goes to where God has prepared a place For it to go, and wait, for Judgement.

The KEY is...a body can not function without a living soul. And God Himself can Impart and Depart a living soul in or out of a Body at His OWN Pleasure.

A man facing Judgement shall be Judged...
According To :
What his own body did or did not choose to do,
And
The EFFECTS of the man Mindful choices... that effect everything Within His Body, including his SOUL.

1) Because mankind reproduces from its own seeds....what it reproduces, is corrupt...Because its own Seed became corrupt, in the Garden.
2) Thus all men born from a mans seed IS Corrupt.
3) That Corruption is Called Sin.
4) That Sin is Against God.
5) That Corruption IS a man being naturally Born...Against God....
Ie. Does not; know of Him, KNOW Him, Love Him, Choose Him, consider Him.
6) Thus all terrestrials Are Born In Sin.

None naturally Born In Sin Become "Sinless".

You can not put an egg in a cake mix and say the egg is not there, because you can no longer see it.

Nor can a man be born In Sin and say Sin is no longer In His body.

Gods Remedy Is providing mankind with an Option, that mankind can Freely choose... or not.

The Option Is Afforded mankind By His Grace and According to His Way.

Men have had A Way since the beginning of mankind To Reconcile unto God.
In the last days... From out of God, God sent Himself, And Said He is the Way, call Him the Son of God, Jesus, The Way, The Truth, The Life, Savior, Lord, Christ ....Go To Him, Through Him ....And God Himself shall restore you.

It hinges on every mans choice To pick, choose, elect To heartfully repent And commit To God by and Through Christ.

A man Who Does....
His Sins Are Forgiven and covered.
His Body becomes acceptable as Spiritually DEAD.
His Soul becomes Restored.
His natural spirit becomes born again, via Gods Seed.
His heart becomes circumcised.
His OWN Spirit dwells within that man

Nothing whatsoever says the mans Sin has disappeared.
Nothing whatsoever says the man HAS become Sinless.

SIN-lESS is to Be a man, Less - Without ever having Sin.

And as you noted is a Term that Applies To Jesus...(who came forth OUT from God) not a terrestrial man out of the earth.

Scripture is Clear...
Men with the Holy Spirit of God......
1) Have Forgiven Sin
2) Have Covered Sin
3) Have Sin even God cannot See
(Because the Sin Is Covered With His LIGHT)
4) Have Sin, that God Himself has put away and Remembers No More.

That IS Not SinLESS.

Part of Gods Grace and Way for a man who has Submitted His Life To the Lord to RECEIVE His Gift of Conversion....

IS a man who has become incapable of ever again Committing Sin Against God.

Which IS to Say... That man can Never Again Not Believe In God.... ie Sin.

The WHY... is Because FOREVER the Lords Spirit and Seed remains within that man.

The HOW ...is Because:
The Lords Spirit IS Supreme Power;
IS LIGHT which darkness can not enter.
and His Seed Is incorruptible, incapable of becoming corrupted.

It is man Who testifies, his soul Is Saved, which means restored through Christ...yet the man continues to continues to Sin....

That is not what the Lord taught Applies to Gentiles.....and may or may not Apply to Jews, Which of course is determined By what the individual Gentile or Jew Chooses for themselves.

It is man Who testifies, his spirit is born again OF Gods incorruptible Seed...yet the man continues to Sin....

That is not what the Lord taught Applies to Gentiles.....and ditto , the same as above ^.

I testify, I confessed my sins To God, repented, Gave my Life TO The Lord,Trust He is faithful, He forgave my sins, cleansed my body, keeps my body preserved and prepared to be glorified when He calls my Body to meet Him, He restored my soul, He Quickened my spirit with His incorruptible Seed, Circumcised my heart, dwells within me with His Spirit, and FOREVER keeps me in His Light , that I can never again Sin Against Him.

OTHER men who disbelieve my testimony, call it Wrong, make their testimony For Me with their words or implications, Are they who are false and corrupt and irrelevant and have not one iota of authority or power to interfere or corrupt or UNDO....what I have committed and given To the Lord And what He Has given To me.

Naturally born in Sin ...yes I WAS.
Naturally Committed Sin...yes I DID.
Accepted Gods Supernatural Grace..yes I Did.
Trust God Is TRUE & Faithful...Yes.
Born of God? Yes I am.
Can SIN Any more?
No I can not.

Sin-Less? No
Forgiven, Covered, Remembered no more Sin, by God ? Yes.

( Forgiveness not sufficient, covering not sufficient, forgetting not sufficient, keeping from sin, by Gods Power not sufficient, Gods Incorruptable Seed not sufficient.......According To Men, who REPEATEDLY and endlessly argue Against men.....who Trust to believe otherwise. )

And I agree...communication between men Is a crux.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Helen]

My search is never ended for more from God,...... When I delve into something He has not definitely put before me I often get into trouble with myself and/or with Him. Sometimes I am curious for myself instead of really hungry for the truth. He usually lets me know before I spend too much time going off on a tangent from the direction He wants me traveling.

True words Amadeus.
So often we can get interested in something and go off at a tangent ..and end up down the preverbal rabbit hole. Then we come to ourself and realize that although it was fun..and even a good topic for conversation...it adds nothing but knowledge, but without 'the life'.

Dave tends to do this..and for us who are retired it is sure of better value than reading some novel or watching some game on the TV..
Sometimes he bores me with things he has studied. But don't tell him that!

The first line of the bit I quoted from your post is - < My search is never ended for more from God, >
I know you read 4 different translations per day...but do you believe that "more of God " is found in the Bible itself?
Obviously I don't, or I wouldn't have asked the question

The only "more of God" I have ever found has been in quiet time before God Himself ..with a pen and paper always at hand...but not a bible.
"more of God" for me...starts when I shut up...and allow His life to flow and fill my innermost being. I have often done that for three hours and still I don't wish to have to 'come back' to the world or the duties it lays upon us.
' Deep calleth to deep...'

Anyway...just a bit of my rambling here...x

Sorry @APAX
I just notice the heading of your thread is "who sins"...whoops, I was off topic. x

 

[amadeus]

@Taken
Sorry brother but so far I haven't been able to effectively get a handle on your writing in post #77. I have read to carefully three times but my mind keeps losing it place and having to re-read. Some of it after the several times through I agree with but much is quite unclear to me. I have copied it to my computer offline where I can read it slowly and piece by piece to hopefully come up with a definite response, but that's the best I can do now.

Understand that some of my own beliefs are unorthodox, but they do follow the scripture. Yours also apparently unorthodox seem to follow the scripture as well but the end results are different and off the top of my head there are too many variations to easily describe them or anything.

Perhaps in a couple of days I'll have something. This is why I usually skip very long posts. I have understand very well why people will often skip my posts when they get to lengthy. God never has such problems.

 

[amadeus]

True words Amadeus.
So often we can get interested in something and go off at a tangent ..and end up down the preverbal rabbit hole. Then we come to ourself and realize that although it was fun..and even a good topic for conversation...it adds nothing but knowledge, but without 'the life'.

For me not "fun" like it once would have been. When I was still working [retired almost 18 years ago] I loved my job because it was complex and full of variety. I was never bored. I ended up retiring early because I was getting burned out in the brain. If I had tried to continue working for a few more years as was my plan, I would have died and I don't believe that is an exaggeration. My wife agrees on this. I was working my 40 hours per week plus all of the overtime they would give me. I was continuously working on everyone else's Social Security troubles. My mind would not and could not rest. At the same time I was trading postage stamps with from 35 to 45 people all over the world, but especially in Spain and Spanish American nations. That trading took most of my time when I was not working for Social Security.

There was no time for anything including God. That was my long 10 years away from God.

My first day off upon retirement I went home and crashed. I slept for 72 hours straight getting up only in a daze to go to the bathroom. No food, no thinking, no nothing. Fortunately my wife understood and let me sleep. When I finally woke up officially retired I did not look back. The job that had obsessed me was out of my mind and I have never missed it. I did not look at my stamp collection for months and I quit all of my trading partners without notice. I still greatly regret that as I had many friends who were not blame for my foolish obsessions... but I know some of them were hurt by me just quitting on them.

I replaced all of those things with God...but for a long time He would not answer me. When He did the chastisement coming my way was terrible yet the miracle at the end of it was incredible.

When I was serving God before that 10 year lapse, I could quote dozens of scriptures. Now I really cannot quote John 3:16. God has given me a different gift now, which you may recognize, but I still suffer severely when I push too hard on thinking and drawing conclusions. That is exactly what I did on the job I loved so much. I am gone from that job because I really let it become more important than God. That was the reason for the chastisement.

"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." Matt 6:24

Dave tends to do this..and for us who are retired it is sure of better value than reading some novel or watching some game on the TV..
Sometimes he bores me with things he has studied. But don't tell him that!

I usually only talk to my wife about the details of scripture when we have a real life problem, ours or someone else's, to deal with. Then we do because we know that God really does have the necessary answers and sometimes He shares them to us. Sometimes we are able to help someone else.

The first line of the bit I quoted from your post is - < My search is never ended for more from God, >
I know you read 4 different translations per day...but do you believe that "more of God " is found in the Bible itself?
Obviously I don't, or I wouldn't have asked the question

I do! For me reading and studying the scripture is eating His flesh. Along that I drink His blood and then sometimes a new thing is quickened to me... that is, written on my heart for proper use at the proper time. It is not always easy as some parts of scripture as you know are not easy to read, but I never skip anything when I am doing my regular reading. That is the flesh and I may skip something that God needs to accomplish His work in or through me. Jesus always had the right answer even if the answer was to remain silent. My success rate falls a bit short of that, but that is because sometimes I still quench the Spirit. Without the Spirit I am dead.

The only "more of God" I have ever found has been in quiet time before God Himself ..with a pen and paper always at hand...but not a bible.
"more of God" for me...starts when I shut up...and allow His life to flow and fill my innermost being. I have often done that for three hours and still I don't wish to have to 'come back' to the world or the duties it lays upon us.
' Deep calleth to deep...'

Not everyone hears in the same way. Elijah heard a still small voice, but you or me or the other guy may hear in an entirely different way. We cannot put God in a box. He always does it the right way at the right time for the right person.

Anyway...just a bit of my rambling here...x

Give God the glory!