Who Does The Father Draw?

[Helen]

Please explain the importance for any of us to know anything Calvin said about anything.

But he said some things that may be wrong?
Oh well, I guess he's just like us.

Calvin was human like the rest of us.
His work is not Scripture itself.
He's not worth fighting over.

AMEN!!
I asked earlier back in this thread why the heck what he taught or didn't teach is so important.
To be honest if it is anything like John Wesley , and what 'people' said years later that he 'taught or believed' it wasn't even all true...man took what Wesley said and put their own spin on it!!
If Wesley came back today, I would not even recognise the Methodist Church that he started. I'd also bet my bottom dollar the same can be said about Calvin.
Would he even recognise anything today!!!! I doubt it.

Heavens he has been dead for a 'wee while'...like since 1564 !!!

Let the man have some peace, and seek the Lord for your own answers ...

And, ...to some on this thread.......like it or not...ELECTION is in the bible.
But not the election that people keep on having a hissy fit about.

The Levites were called out and chosen from the rest of the tribes.
Moses & Aaron were chosen and elected to lead Israel out.
Peter James and John were chosen and elected to go with Jesus up the mountain, further than the others were called to do.

Paul says .."Make YOUR calling and election sure..."
Salvation is a done deal...our calling and election is up to us to secure and " run the race for" as Paul said.
He was NOT running to keep his salvation, he ran to fulfil his calling.
"The Prize of the high calling in Jesus Christ , " he did run to secure his salvation. ..His eye was on what God has said to all of us when He said.:-
" I go to prepare a Place for YOU......." etc

In Glory, Abraham will not be sitting in Paul's seat...Paul will not be sitting in John The Baptists seat. etc etc
Calling and election is for us to "press toward the mark.." Paul knew he 'could' miss it, he could get weary, he could drop the ball ..."thus he ran.." with everything he had, and tells us to do the same...
His salvation was secure..but he ran to fulfil his calling and election. His place.

This is what Revelation 3 is all about...to The Overcomer's.

 

[Helen]

Sorry @Rollo Tamasi

I should have made that a separate post.

 

[amadeus]

Very good, I enjoyed your post @amadeus
We really do need to have "eyes to see"! <---How about we all pray in agreement for this? Fervently, sincerely and from the heart? I love this forum and have made friends...well, at least I like to think they are my "friends" lol...no, not longtime close friends but, friends, sisters and brothers in Christ.
But, it seems anymore that we are no better than politics with all this splintering and division and vitriol. We are ALL capable of letting our anger get the best of us. And when I find myself getting to that point, I realize I can't even remember the OP! So, WHOMSOEVER (lol) comes across this post, say a prayer for (ALL)-sry, couldn't resist - of us here so we are obedient to His ultimate command to love each other.

-nancy

Yes, the anger that comes get tiresome. I would not mind discussing differences with Catholics or non-Catholics with a charitable Spirit. Some of them I usually stay away since calling a person a liar or inferring that he is a liar usually accomplishes little or nothing edifying for anyone.

Obviously some people disagree with me. As I see it, charity, as described in I Corinthians chapter 13 is more important than all of the doctrines. Without charity even with the best of other scriptural knowledge and doctrines we still miss God. Is it worth that? Apparently to some, it is.!

Yes, let us pray together, all of us, that we might all move closer to God and to one another.

 

[Philip James]

Amen!

 

[Nancy]

Yes, the anger that comes get tiresome. I would not mind discussing differences even with Catholics or non-Catholics with a charitable Spirit. Some of them I usually stay away from calling a person a liar or inferring that he is a liar usually accomplishes little or nothing edifying for anyone.
Obviously some people disagree with me. As I see it, charity, as described in I Corinthians chapter 13 is more important than all of the doctrines. Without charity even with the best of other scriptural knowledge and doctrines we still miss God. Is it worth that? Apparently to some, it is.!


Yes, let us pray together, all of us, that we might all move closer to God and to one another.

And The Church said Amen!
I am a bit curios though as to why these differences are not moved to the debate forum.

 

[amadeus]

Oh my, that is funny! Yet sad too. That woman was so entrenched her belief that the underwear was holy.

Yes, funny but sad. The lady in question married my brother who had never been anything but Catholic and nothing. He went deep into the LDS for a while, but somewhere along the line he changed his mind although he never told me that. He remained married and faithful to her until their youngest child finished high school. Then he divorced her. She was fully disabled from diabetes and other things. After the divorce he gave her their home and he supported her 100% until her death perhaps 20 years later. To my knowledge he has never looked back at Mormonism and apparently also not at Christianity. That all happened in California. He remarried and lives with his wife in Oregon. His three sons the last I knew were still active Mormons. My own personal testimony of what that lady did to my daughter makes it difficult to be charitable to a Mormon and his beliefs.

 

[amadeus]

And The Church said Amen!
I am a bit curios though as to why these differences are not moved to the debate forum.

Moderators are here but they do hold themselves back on interference. Sometimes it is good. Sometimes, not so much. I was a moderator on a forum once that was owned by a good Catholic man. I only lasted a couple of months. I can understand the difficulties and would never take on such a job again myself.

 

[Nancy]

AMEN!!
I asked earlier back in this thread why the heck what he taught or didn't teach is so important.
To be honest if it is anything like John Wesley , and what 'people' said years later that he 'taught or believed' it wasn't even all true...man took what Wesley said and put their own spin on it!!
If Wesley came back today, I would not even recognise the Methodist Church that he started. I'd also bet my bottom dollar the same can be said about Calvin.
Would he even recognise anything today!!!! I doubt it.

Heavens he has been dead for a 'wee while'...like since 1564 !!!

Let the man have some peace, and seek the Lord for your own answers ...

And, ...to some on this thread.......like it or not...ELECTION is in the bible.
But not the election that people keep on having a hissy fit about.

The Levites were called out and chosen from the rest of the tribes.
Moses & Aaron were chosen and elected to lead Israel out.
Peter James and John were chosen and elected to go with Jesus up the mountain, further than the others were called to do.

Paul says .."Make YOUR calling and election sure..."
Salvation is a done deal...our calling and election is up to us to secure and " run the race for" as Paul said.
He was NOT running to keep his salvation, he ran to fulfil his calling.
"The Prize of the high calling in Jesus Christ , " he did run to secure his salvation. ..His eye was on what God has said to all of us when He said.:-
" I go to prepare a Place for YOU......." etc

In Glory, Abraham will not be sitting in Paul's seat...Paul will not be sitting in John The Baptists seat. etc etc
Calling and election is for us to "press toward the mark.." Paul knew he 'could' miss it, he could get weary, he could drop the ball ..."thus he ran.." with everything he had, and tells us to do the same...
His salvation was secure..but he ran to fulfil his calling and election. His place.

This is what Revelation 3 is all about...to The Overcomer's.

like it or not...ELECTION is in the bible.
But not the election that people keep on having a hissy fit about. <---Hissy fit, lol. Have not heard that one in awhile!
I cannot speak for others but, I think my own personal experience has made this more of an issue than it should be. I agree with everything you say above except...I do know that election i in the bible, and I do understand what it means. The Hissy fit election is the only one I have a problem with. I have been asking The Lord to help my attitude in this area and, I see myself slowly backing away from the issue. But, I know that if I let it, it will come back full force, head on arguing to no end.
Love you sister!
-nancy

 

[LC627]

Um, yes...I think we KNOW that not everybody is saved...many-wide rd. few-narrow rd. I am talking about the I in cal. Irresistible grace-really??? and this is EXACTLY what comes of this bunk---a VERY small group of elitists who look down their noses at others who might be floundering, or has a limited understanding. All Men are called and, I have to be done here before I get heated and I do not want that...I'd rather be on the poetry thread.
peace

If all men were called then they would have been justified then gloried. Everything in the Believer's life is from God's grace.

 

[Helen]

!
I am a bit curios though as to why these differences are not moved to the debate forum.

Easy Nancy.
When the discussion/ discussions started...no one knew it would turn into a Debate.

As I said myself earlier in this thread...because they always get 'hot'.
No where in the OP did it infer that it would be all about Calvinism.
( which bores me)

But obviously that was the unspoken intent...

I would have ignore the thread...they always go sideways....I have never seen any thread that is dedicated toward any pet doctrine , not become a debate!! lol

 

[Helen]

---Hissy fit, lol.
I cannot speak for others but, I think my own personal experience has made this more of an issue than it should be. I agree with everything you say above except...I do know that election i in the bible, and I do understand what it means. The Hissy fit election is the only one I have a problem with. I have been asking The Lord to help my attitude in this area and, I see myself slowly backing away from the issue. But, I know that if I let it, it will come back full force, head on arguing to no end.
Love you sister!
-nancy

And once again...what you are speaking about and what I was writing about are two different things. You are once again taking about Calvinism. I am not.

I am talking about the personal "calling and election " which Paul wrote about...

As I said earlier...our wires are totally crossed.
This discussion goes nowhere, just round the same mulberry bush, like a dog and it's tail.
It is like everyone in this thread is talking a different language that no one else can hear.

Blessings...H

 

[Nancy]

Easy Nancy.
When the discussion/ discussions started...no one knew it would turn into a Debate.

As I said myself earlier in this thread...because they always get 'hot'.
No where in the OP did it infer that it would be all about Calvinism.
( which bores me)

But obviously that was the unspoken intent...

I would have ignore the thread...they always go sideways....I have never seen any thread that is dedicated toward any pet doctrine , not become a debate!! lol

"I have never seen any thread that is dedicated toward any pet doctrine , not become a debate!! lol"
Yes, I did not think of it that way, I understand a little more now about the moderators job, as per amadeus post. I guess in the case of moving it to the debate forum...you would pretty much have to have JUST a debate forum!! LOLOL

 

[LC627]

@LC627 , I'm sure there are many things we can agree on but, this will never be one of them. I thought I was kindling for hell for most of the 90's, satan comes right in there to try and kill, steal and destroy-and of course the first thing he will do is try to snatch away their hope and faith in God. I read allot and, I would get books on different doctrines and takes on the Christian faith. I must say, it seems there is a whole lot of acrobatics trying to make something mean what it does not. It pushes people away from Christ rather than allowing the Holy Spirit to draw them closer. I'm sorry, there are WAY too many scriptures that are plain as day to me and most others as well.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.

Here's a shocker for ya, my own pastor is a calvinist...but he doesn't preach on it...hmmm wonder why? Empty pews, that;s why. I will be finding another Church soon as, there is a spirit of coldness and superiority among more than a few there and, no matter how much I tried to reach out to people there-not gonna happen. That is the exact reason I am on this board-fellowship, and have been very blessed to find this little pearl of a forum. So, we are FREE to believe what we believe. I just hope you can one day see the damage this doctrine has done to cause much strife and division within the Church...why even evangelize? Did God lie when He said He would draw ALL men unto Him? Wished that NONE should perish? Whomsoever calls upon the name of the Lord? And so many other CLEAR scripture. Seems Calvinist's have to bend and twist a lot of scripture to affirm their beliefs. All it does is create an elitist attitude...and how in the world can anyone even have an assurance of their salvation? - they cant so, if you are willing to disregard a whole lot of clear scripture, only to concentrate on a few obscure ones, you too are FREE to do so.
God bless and keep you,
-nancy

John 17:9 - "I pray for them, I am not praying for the world, but for those You have given to Me, for they are yours."

You are free to believe what you want, Nancy. I won't fight with a sister in Christ because that causes discord and I don't wish for that. You mentioned in your last reply to me that you're moving on from this thread and after this post I probably will too. One thing for sure, you may not agree with the definition of predestination I hold and that is OK but you need to find a way to accept the fact it is in the Bible and if it wasn't true it wouldn't be there. I do not have a elitist attitude - you are brining in past hurt into the conversation. I deserve hell just as much as you and anyone else in the world. I am humbled each day that I am saved by God's grace and this doctrine does not push me from God, it brings me closer to Him. I am the most underserving of His grace but yet He forgives me.

 

[LC627]

If GOD chooses YOU,
how can you be SURE you're saved???

"The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God" Romans 8:16
"The one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning..." 1 John. 3:9
"By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother" 1 John 3:10

 

[Nancy]

Yes, funny but sad. The lady in question married my brother who had never been anything but Catholic and nothing. He went deep into the LDS for a while, but somewhere along the line he changed his mind although he never told me that. He remained married and faithful to her until their youngest child finished high school. Then he divorced her. She was fully disabled from diabetes and other things. After the divorce he gave her their home and he supported her 100% until her death perhaps 20 years later. To my knowledge he has never looked back at Mormonism and apparently also not at Christianity. That all happened in California. He remarried and lives with his wife in Oregon. His three sons the last I knew were still active Mormons. My own personal testimony of what that lady did to my daughter makes it difficult to be charitable to a Mormon and his beliefs.

Yes, I truly understand how you feel with having a personal experience with how erroneous doctrine can push people away from Jesus. I too have that pet peeve which, I'm sure you know, lol. There are so many scriptures warning us of false doctrine, and if we are to correct and reproof as Paul did to Peter and others, how is it even possible if it just turns into arguments...and that does NOT Glorify God! Bottom line, we can argue amongst each other till the cow's come home, but ONLY God can change hearts and minds.

 

[amadeus]

Yes, I truly understand how you feel with having a personal experience with how erroneous doctrine can push people away from Jesus. I too have that pet peeve which, I'm sure you know, lol. There are so many scriptures warning us of false doctrine, and if we are to correct and reproof as Paul did to Peter and others, how is it even possible if it just turns into arguments...and that does NOT Glorify God! Bottom line, we can argue amongst each other till the cow's come home, but ONLY God can change hearts and minds.

I have no problem at all with good honest charitable discussion, but every believer involved in such needs to always remember as you have the words penned by the apostle Paul:

"For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:3-7

Sometimes God will use us to share the truth with someone. Sometimes they will not receive it and may even get angry about it.

That is one situation. Another one is where we insist on sharing but God definitely does not want us going there.

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:" Matt 10:5

We always need to be listening to His voice and acting or holding our peace accordingly. God always know what is needed or what should be done. There is a time to be silent as well as a time to speak [Ecc 3:1,7] and He will share with us if we ask and obey:

"But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers." John 10:2-5

Are we His sheep or are we goats?

 

[bbyrd009]

what Christ said in (6:65), "no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father"

He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."
Then he said, "That is why I said that people can't come to me unless the Father gives them to me."
And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
And He was saying, "Because of this, I have said to you that no one is able to come to Me, unless it shall have been granted to him from the Father."
And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
And he added, "This is the very reason I told you that no people can come to me unless the Father makes it possible for them to do so."
So he said, "That's why I told you that no one can come to me unless it be granted him by the Father."
So Jesus added, "Because of this I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has allowed him to come."
He said, "For this cause have I said to you that no one can come to me, unless it is given to him by the Father."

your Quote does not exist pard, sorry

 

[Helen]

? Say more...because I am missing this point.
What are you actual saying here to Stranger? I'm lost at the moment.
But I know that you have a point...

 

[LC627]

Surely you know more today then when you first got saved

Stranger, I was thinking about this today and I'm glad you mentioned it. How beautiful this walk of faith is and the God we serve. The more I learn about God and grow in understanding the more I am thankful for His grace because I realize just the punishment I deserve. None of us wants God to be fair with us because if so, we all would be in great trouble. I don't desire God to be fair with me because if so I might as well throw myself into the Lake of Fire - I desire God's mercy and grace. As completely fallen beings God was not obligated at all to save any of us. Each day we should be thankful for His saving grace.

 

[Stranger]

Stranger, I was thinking about this today and I'm glad you mentioned it. How beautiful this walk of faith is and the God we serve. The more I learn about God and grow in understanding the more I am thankful for His grace because I realize just the punishment I deserve. None of us wants God to be fair with us because if so, we all would be in great trouble. I don't desire God to be fair with me because if so I might as well throw myself into the Lake of Fire - I desire God's mercy and grace. As completely fallen beings God was not obligated at all to save any of us. Each day we should be thankful for His saving grace.

Amen to that. It is like the old story told down here in the South. Years ago there was a black man being charged with some crime. Some highfalutin defense lawyer came to him and told him don't worry that he would see that the man got justice. The black man replied, hell mister, I don't want justice, I wants mercy.

Yes, we should be thankful for his saving grace.

Stranger